Port Rail Shuttles For Melbourne At Last

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Interesting to see some sidings connected to the main potentially for WestVic Containers.  These sidings are on the UP side of the SCT connection but far enough away to be for another reason?

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  shogun427 Station Staff

From memory they've been there for a while.

Someone from SCT once told me they were going to be used for upgrades to their terminal but this was in late 2017 so not sure if it's still planned. (one of  SCT's issues impacting their service departures was the ability to turn loco's - they'd have to run out to Tottenham to run around the triangle there to get their loco's facing the right direction, which subject to traffic could take a while) The plan was to be able to do it in their own yard plus extra holding roads.

Someone closer to the operation now would probably be able to shed more light.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Big news - Salta are going ahead with their Lyndhurst Port-Rail shuttle facility. Starts 2023 and will use brand new high capacity freight trains. That's something new for BG in a while.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Details here:
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
How likely are the new locos (Salta CEO called them "high speed" trains... lol) to be hybrid elec/diesel?  The overwhelming majority of the route is under wires (wires that have been upgraded too) - wouldn't it make sense to use them and then go under diesel power at both ends?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

How likely are the new locos (Salta CEO called them "high speed" trains... lol) to be hybrid elec/diesel?  The overwhelming majority of the route is under wires (wires that have been upgraded too) - wouldn't it make sense to use them and then go under diesel power at both ends?
tayser
Sounds like they'll be beefy, you'd think Electric, maybe electric diesel bi-mode if they don't want electrification in the port of Melbourne (not that they could double stack containers there anyway due to Bunbury St tunnel).

edit: See here, https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/images/stories/committees/pomsc/Submissions/Submission_55_-_Salta_-_Attachment_2.pdf

Looks like Lyndhurt will be BG, Altona and Sommerton will be SG. 3000 HP locos (N class are 2500 HP) and 84 TEUs (20 foot container = TEU) for length of ~510m plus two locos, push and pull. Full consist would be ~550m
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I watched this last night including the interview with Michael McCormick.

Trains will have to wait until the Cranbourne track duplication has been completed.

This is good news and something which should have been delivered years ago.  Qube are involved I believe with the Salta Development.  Can anyone confirm?

Is Woolworths on the site?

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/charter-hall-snaps-up-woolies-distribution-centre-worth-215m-20160607-gpdbuc.html

If we at all need reminding this project was started in 2017 https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/portrail-shuttle-back-on-table-to-remove-3500-trucks-off-roads-20170819-gxzu7r.html and will see the first train in 2023.  Outstanding.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
How does this take another 3 years?

This should be achievable within 12 months. Or am I missing something here?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Big news - Salta are going ahead with their Lyndhurst Port-Rail shuttle facility. Starts 2023 and will use brand new high capacity freight trains. That's something new for BG in a while.
Carnot
Hype, Hype, Hype, Hype!

Extraordinarily good news! I do wonder how 'new' this stuff will that they end up using.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
How does this take another 3 years?

This should be achievable within 12 months. Or am I missing something here?
Gman_86

The mind boggles.

The distribution centre appears to be here and the rail line to the  north so some sidings to be built to the left of the highway.

  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Finally some movement on something well overdue for Melbourne. Some thoughts follow

Why have diesel trains when there are wires for almost the entire journey between the main and the port ? Get some new electrics and do it that way quieter too for the residents.

Have a shutter at the park which Makes up the trains and local movements no need for wires. Take trains out to the departure tracks and then mainline to port.

How will the trains be take to port into holding yards Nd then broken up into the Oort ?

Michael McCormick seems almost frightened of the trucking industry the way he spoke in the interview.

Why does it take 3 years to
Build a siding and run some trains ?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
How does this take another 3 years?

This should be achievable within 12 months. Or am I missing something here?

The mind boggles.

The distribution centre appears to be here and the rail line to the  north so some sidings to be built to the left of the highway.

bevans
Not so boggling.

The "missing" piece is the 2nd track is yet to be built. 3 years sounds about right.

The siding is already there. Currently it goes as far as the cement works about 200m north.
Not sure whether Boral still use it, and the points would need re-work anyway for the track duplication.

Ps: the doc given was a pretty sloppy effort. Eg: labelling Lyndhurst as South West, copy/paste is the devil.

cheers
John
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Why have diesel trains when there are wires for almost the entire journey between the main and the port ? Get some new electrics and do it that way quieter too for the residents.

Have a shutter at the park which Makes up the trains and local movements no need for wires. Take trains out to the departure tracks and then mainline to port.
freightgate
The idea of push/pull removes the need for engine run-arounds on non-existing shunt tracks. They would double the complexity at each site.

That being said, nothing wrong with the idea from @tayser of hybrid deisel/electric.
Noise on the Skyrail in the middle of the night will be contentious. Electric is better, but will that be enough?

cheers
John
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
SCT and PN have a different view. If you want to do electric traction which I think is good then you need the ability to move trains around in the complex.

@bevans above you say the line comes off the main line before the overpass which only allows for a single access track but you can access multiple sites along that corridor.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
SCT and PN have a different view. If you want to do electric traction which I think is good then you need the ability to move trains around in the complex.

@bevans above you say the line comes off the main line before the overpass which only allows for a single access track but you can access multiple sites along that corridor.
freightgate

There is also the landfill site which could benefit from rail access.  Going north there is plenty of room for a siding and note Amazon warehousing is also accessible by rail if design correctly.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
What is all the loading is. It going to port and is destined for interstate locations will this also go to Dynon for a new service day to the west ?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Further info from the document shows a future line to the port of Hastings from the Cranbourne Line and also shows sidings that will be created.



The really good news is the ability capture more business south of the current project allowing for connection of new customers as industrial development continues.

It would be good to see a waste management facility build on the line.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
SCT and PN have a different view. If you want to do electric traction which I think is good then you need the ability to move trains around in the complex.

@bevans above you say the line comes off the main line before the overpass which only allows for a single access track but you can access multiple sites along that corridor.
freightgate

Yeah and you could do that with dual electric and diesel locos, no?  At Lyndhurst and in the port, they'd be under diesel power, when they join the mainline, they use the wires....  am I missing something here?

That doc btw is many years old and probably doesn't reflect the actual plans going ahead (might be something like it but due to its age, it's likely been updated).

edit, something like this: https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/familia/bitrac/modularidad.php
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Ok, im going to be me and ask the question that im sure you expect me to ask.....

Is there any way that this can be SG.  How much is new build, how much is sharing exisitng (what is actually being built i think is a pertinent question)?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Yeah and you could do that with dual electric and diesel locos, no?  At Lyndhurst and in the port, they'd be under diesel power, when they join the mainline, they use the wires....  am I missing something here?

That doc btw is many years old and probably doesn't reflect the actual plans going ahead (might be something like it but due to its age, it's likely been updated).
tayser

There several excellent 3500HP electric locomotives available from different vendors.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
How does this take another 3 years?

This should be achievable within 12 months. Or am I missing something here?
Gman_86

The scope of the Cranbourne duplication project is being expanded to include doing the trackwork for the Lyndhurst shuttles.  The document linked before is old and is an overview.

The announcement yesterday was specifically about Cranbourne/Lyndhurst.

You probably could start the services within 12 months but makes sense to give Port of Melbourne to sort their end out first and also wait for the extra capacity between Lyndhurst and Dandenong.... hence 3 years.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech

The scope of the Cranbourne duplication project is being expanded to include doing the trackwork for the Lyndhurst shuttles.  The document linked before is old and is an overview.

The announcement yesterday was specifically about Cranbourne/Lyndhurst.

You probably could start the services within 12 months but makes sense to give Port of Melbourne to sort their end out first and also wait for the extra capacity between Lyndhurst and Dandenong.... hence 3 years.
tayser

Catching up.

There is a siding and the remainder of the track will be on private land.  It is two sets of points and a couple of sidings and a lead south to more sidings.  That does not take 3 years to deliver, errr well outside of Victoria.

A question thou, the trains will be what TEU 84?

100,000 per annum Monday to Friday is 450 containers per day.

Are they intending to run 7 days per week or 6 or 5?

On the subject of Somerton would BG be a better option as multiple paths into Melbourne and the Port area.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Asides not having the locomotives and rollingstock, the sidings not built, no crews ready and no pathing sorted out. Just a few minor things to get ready..

And just because there is some track there doesnt mean it's in a useable state for what the end user wants (some legacy parts of the network are crap for running certain trains, i.e Tottenham Yard would be better as 50% standard gauge 50% broad gauge in fairly long roads). Also people cant snap their hands and expect a terminal to suddenly be there out of nowhere.


Somerton terminal on BG would have next to no paths compared to standard gauge, which it would have to cross over anyway while playing nice with Metro to get a path onto the Cragieburn line. Then there is the general slow speed of the broad gauge goods line all the way to Sunshine, where Metro take back over and would have to slot the train through Albion and Sunshine, then swing off back through Tottenham at roughly 15km/h, then rejoin the goods lines at West Footscray.

Going via Essendon would mean you would need to turn the train around at the roads at North Melbourne/West Tower, then interface with Vline on the RRL to get from there, then past North Dynon to get to the docks.


And of final note. A lot of Euro electrics have a "final mile" diesel mode, for this specific reason. Hell, even with modern engines and electronics dual mode electric/diesels exist. Stadler Rail make a 6000kw/3000kw dual mode electric https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/32/95/ca3295dc7b5e04a44b4ae1f288df7a90.jpg
https://i0.wp.com/bahnblogstelle.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Captrain_Eurodual_Lok_BildStrecke-1-e1584827122880.jpg?fit=1200%2C823&ssl=1
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
If they run 5 days per week it will be 6 return trains per day. Metro will need to be told to but out.

More likely to run 6 days per week.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech

Somerton terminal on BG would have next to no paths compared to standard gauge, which it would have to cross over anyway while playing nice with Metro to get a path onto the Cragieburn line. Then there is the general slow speed of the broad gauge goods line all the way to Sunshine, where Metro take back over and would have to slot the train through Albion and Sunshine, then swing off back through Tottenham at roughly 15km/h, then rejoin the goods lines at West Footscray.
speedemon08

You raise good discussion points as always but somewhere I thought the the Albion to Broadmeadows lines had been resleepered and were in much better condition than a crawl?

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