Daniel Andrews Imploding Act

 
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
So protect the people who are most likely to die from the virus instead of destroying business and commerce.
You can't do that if you have a massive outbreak of it, you have to do a lockdown if the numbers get too much, that's it!
There's how many vulnerable people in nursing homes?
Since you think oldies are such a small inconvenience to be shut away.

For 2017/2018
1.2 MILLION Australians receive Aged Care Services.
270,000 of them are in Residential care.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/aged-care
That is not the total of all over 65. Just those that are vulnerable and need support.

407 deaths in Aged care @ yesterday. And they were locked away from family to suffer their last days alone.
justarider
407 deaths of people who died WITH COVID19, not FROM COVID19. They don't make any distinction when they release those figures.

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  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Herd immunity at the moment is a dangerous target. For starters we are not sure that acquired antibodies remain, secondly, getting 90+% of the population ‘infected’ to get to herd immunity levels will cripple the economy, AND if it doesn’t, thirdly, the residual respiratory damage induced into those infected WILL cripple the economy. Either via their reduced capacity for work, or through costs of future treatments.

Sweden is no poster child to follow, eventually they may be found have done the right thing, but for the moment evidence is suggesting they’re not handling it by best practice.
Aaron
There might be no realistic alternative unless they keep the economy shut forever.
  doyle Assistant Commissioner

Covid normal, whatever that really is and covid safe work practices, we will have too wait and see
City centres will probably suffer as some businesses adapt and some can and will have a home based workforce
As will greedy shopping centre owners as more and more buy online
Wish I had a crystal ball
  doyle Assistant Commissioner

Don't lose hope Don
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
So protect the people who are most likely to die from the virus instead of destroying business and commerce.
You can't do that if you have a massive outbreak of it, you have to do a lockdown if the numbers get too much, that's it!
There's how many vulnerable people in nursing homes?
Since you think oldies are such a small inconvenience to be shut away.

For 2017/2018
1.2 MILLION Australians receive Aged Care Services.
270,000 of them are in Residential care.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/aged-care
That is not the total of all over 65. Just those that are vulnerable and need support.

407 deaths in Aged care @ yesterday. And they were locked away from family to suffer their last days alone.
407 deaths of people who died WITH COVID19, not FROM COVID19. They don't make any distinction when they release those figures.
don_dunstan
Did you read this?
Aaron
He's also telling lies about the actual death toll - people who happen to die while they have COVID are counted as "COVID deaths" when in fact they're people who are either very geriatric or already extremely sick from some other illness. This is done in order to deliberately frighten people into doing what they want.
don_dunstan
No, as far as I can see they're telling the truth on the statistics on hand. We count events based on what caused the event. In this case deaths are counted by what caused the death.

Medical examiners do not look at the body of a person riddled with cancer and a self inflicted gun shot to the head and rule 'cancer' as cause of death, nor do they look at someone who has been sick with say Crohn's disease their whole life and rule their death due to that instead of the un-diagnosed cancer in their pancreas. On occasion it will be discovered that a person found deceased, in their car which just happens to be extremely damaged and close to, or still in contact with a large tree died due to a vehicle accident, further investigation will discover evidence of serious myocardial infarction, or embolism and that death will be removed from road toll statistics.

This is honestly happening with COVID deaths too, on occasion you will see cases (or deaths) 'reclassified' meaning on further inspection it is decided that COVID was not the primary cause (or maybe that it was if COVID was originally not diagnosed).

The test for whether COVID is regarded as causation for the death is this: regardless of preexisting illness if COVID was not present in this person would they still be alive today? Yes, 'COVID death'. No, 'insert other ailment here'.

You will not find a person infected with COVID being hit by a car crossing the street whilst absconding from isolation as being listed as a COVID death, you will find them however contributing to the road death 'toll'.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bored at home
So protect the people who are most likely to die from the virus instead of destroying business and commerce.
You can't do that if you have a massive outbreak of it, you have to do a lockdown if the numbers get too much, that's it!
There's how many vulnerable people in nursing homes?
Since you think oldies are such a small inconvenience to be shut away.

For 2017/2018
1.2 MILLION Australians receive Aged Care Services.
270,000 of them are in Residential care.
https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/aged-care
That is not the total of all over 65. Just those that are vulnerable and need support.

407 deaths in Aged care @ yesterday. And they were locked away from family to suffer their last days alone.
407 deaths of people who died WITH COVID19, not FROM COVID19. They don't make any distinction when they release those figures.
don_dunstan
Such a clever pendant you are.

Victoria, as at last night, 382 deaths of people in Aged Care, attributed to COVID19. Of 385 Vic total deaths with Covid.
But heck, the others would have died anyway, in your reasoning.

Sadly , meanwhile many more pass away in Aged Care, as is usual. Part of the 1.2 Million you compassionately need to lock away .
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Did you read this?
Aaron
He's also telling lies about the actual death toll - people who happen to die while they have COVID are counted as "COVID deaths" when in fact they're people who are either very geriatric or already extremely sick from some other illness. This is done in order to deliberately frighten people into doing what they want.
No, as far as I can see they're telling the truth on the statistics on hand. We count events based on what caused the event. In this case deaths are counted by what caused the death.

Medical examiners do not look at the body of a person riddled with cancer and a self inflicted gun shot to the head and rule 'cancer' as cause of death, nor do they look at someone who has been sick with say Crohn's disease their whole life and rule their death due to that instead of the un-diagnosed cancer in their pancreas. On occasion it will be discovered that a person found deceased, in their car which just happens to be extremely damaged and close to, or still in contact with a large tree died due to a vehicle accident, further investigation will discover evidence of serious myocardial infarction, or embolism and that death will be removed from road toll statistics.

This is honestly happening with COVID deaths too, on occasion you will see cases (or deaths) 'reclassified' meaning on further inspection it is decided that COVID was not the primary cause (or maybe that it was if COVID was originally not diagnosed).

The test for whether COVID is regarded as causation for the death is this: regardless of preexisting illness if COVID was not present in this person would they still be alive today? Yes, 'COVID death'. No, 'insert other ailment here'.

You will not find a person infected with COVID being hit by a car crossing the street whilst absconding from isolation as being listed as a COVID death, you will find them however contributing to the road death 'toll'.
Aaron
SO Aaron, you're essentially agreeing with me. Someone could be 102 with one foot in the grave and the other on a very slippery banana peel and then they finally get COVID and that pushes them over the edge - therefore the death is actually from COVID and that's how the Coroner is going to rule.

Like the guy in his thirties who died from COVID some weeks ago in Victoria - they were flaunting that as a case of "Oooh, look, anyone at any age can die from it. Be frightened!". What they weren't telling us was that he was about to die from something else when COVID came along and knocked him off but it was still counted as COVID because that's what actually finished him off.

The statistical trick you talk of with the road toll has been known about for ages - they use it to reduce the official road toll numbers by ruling "suicide" or "heart attack" and removing them from the road toll very often. That's part of the reason why the official road toll has gone down over the last few decades - deaths that used to be counted are now excluded.
  brownhillboy Train Controller

The difference in personalities in Australian politicians is extreme.

Last week the federal Minister for Aged Care had a brain fade, and was taken to task Australia wide for being unable to recall statistics in regards to aged care deaths.

This weekend Dictator Dan was asked about the huge cost blow-out in providing security guards for the hotel fiasco. He dismissed the subject, saying that he hadn't been briefed on that subject. The press just accepted that.

Dan is only capable of blandly churning out meaningless statistics each morning. His head is empty, he has nothing else to give the state, which is still spiraling downwards economically and mentally, with the worst of the business collapse still someway off.

Is there anyone left in the Victorian ALP that can stand up and be counted, and show some leadership. With the ministerial resignations due to the branch stacking affair, the semi-demoted Jenny "It was handled perfectly" Mikakos completely incapable of handling her portfolio....Victoria needs someone quick.

With no hope of the Liberals being of any help, this state is a basket case and in free fall.

The solution? Everybody go and get tested.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
OK brownhillboy, I've read everything you wrote, and you're one of a long line of whingers. You're applying your gunzel skills to politics instead of railways.
This is an unprecedented pandemic, and it's obvious that just about nobody knew how to handle it when it struck. That's why we have a judicial enquiry going on to learn everything that went wrong and how to be sure it doesn't happen again.
Yet, we still have people going on as though they somehow believe that Andrews is enjoying it. He can't know and do everything at the one time. I can quite believe that he hasn't been briefed on some cost. The Federal Aged Care Minister couldn't remember his figures; that's not a hanging offence either. Both men know where in their respective areas to go and find these numbers.

Instead of carrying on with the great Australian whinge, what would you do if (God forbid) you were the Premier?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I would be more open, straightforward, upfront and honest. (Sorry - he is a politician.)
I would stop muttering platitudes about thanks, prayers and condolences. Who wants them from a politician?
I would be kicking some heads and naming some names. Some bastard agreed to the 'Rent a Crowd' for the hotel quarantine.
I would be rectifying some of the blatant inconsistencies in the lockdown laws eg runners/joggers without a mask being free to spread dog germs whilst everyone else has to cover up. They remind me of 'Pigpen' in Charlie Brown. Talk about sacred cows!
As for masks - not needed one minute and compulsory the next.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Thanks YM - at last someone with some positive ideas.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
No Don, I am not agreeing with you.

People are recorded as having died from what they die from.

One of my Godmother’s sons died in a car crash thirty years ago as a result of an aneurysm. 30 years ago his death was removed from road crash statistics - this is not a new thing, and hence it is not why crash statistics look to be improving ‘today’.

If people have COVID and die from heart attack or something else (or mythical mass suicide) they’re not listed as COVID death. If they something else, but COVID is what caused them to pass then they are counted as COVID deaths. You’ve not seen the numbers being adjusted (generally) down on many days?

What you describe in terms of statistical use is currently occurring in Belgium, look then up and see how different it looks to Australia - there you will find your evidence.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I am in a position to observe from my desk many people using a linear bike/walking path immediately outside our fence. My observations can be summarised as follows:

  • The vast majority of people wear masks properly.
  • Runners/joggers do not wear masks preferring (with government approval) to breath like a Westinghouse steam airbrake compressor spreading dog germs to all and sundry.
  • There are two groups of 'macho' males who do not wear masks - a few bogans and some males of a specific ethnicity.
  • There is also a proportion (mainly young females) who cover only their mouth leaving their nose exposed to suck up/spread the virus.
  • If you carry a takeaway coffee cup you do not have to wear a mask - just hang it around your neck despite the nearest coffee shop being more than a mile away.


Oh well; back to Reinhard Heydrich's biography which is more interesting than posting rubbish on here. Only 250 pages to go .................... Smile
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Oh well; back to Reinhard Heydrich's biography which is more interesting than posting rubbish on here. Only 250 pages to go .
"YM-Mundrabilla"
I can also see a lot of what you're seeing. The big difference is that I'm just into Merv Hughes' biography with 275 pages to go.......Laughing
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
What will be the end cost of this lockdown and business damage.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
What will be the end cost of this lockdown and business damage.
freightgate
Forget the cost. What is the monetary value of your life? If just one life is saved it is worth every cent.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
What will be the end cost of this lockdown and business damage.
"freightgate"
What will be the cost of the next bushfire/flood/storm/heatwave? Nobody has a chance of answering it, and it's irrelevant at this moment. Curbing the spread and saving lives is the only immediate priority.
  brownhillboy Train Controller

Statistics are being used by the Premier as a means to instill fear in the community and promote himself as being the saviour. A vast majority of COVID-19 affected people have had very mild or no symptoms. Deaths have nowhere near reached last years flu figures. The media and government just love to promote worst case scenarios to get a headline on the news.
My wife's aunt lives in a north western suburban nursing home. Six staff and five residents have tested positive with mild or no symptoms and are being treated effectively and without fuss in house. That could easily make a good headline:
ANOTHER NURSING HOME STRUCK DOWN WITH COVID: SIX STAFF AND FIVE RESIDENTS INFECTED. PREMIER SEEKS EXTENSION OF EMERGENCY POWERS.
Dictator Dan is just out to suppress the people to further his own ideals. He doesn't care about the hundreds of thousands of families doing it tough in areas where there has been no COVID-19 at all for 5 months. He won't care when the tens of thousands of people now propped up by the Federal Government eventually find out that they don't have a job to go back to.
He'll just say the words JOBS JOBS JOBS, and his misguided true believers will swoon with adoration.
But first he will inflict more pain and despair on millions of Victorians. He has learnt well from Mao, Stalin,Mugabe, Putin, and many other dictators, but really he is only very small fry.
There are numerous ways that Victoria could already be on the road to recovery, but at the moment Dan hasn't got a clue, because his empty head hasn't been whispered in by his advisors.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
Statistics are being used by the Premier as a means to instill fear in the community and promote himself as being the saviour. A vast majority of COVID-19 affected people have had very mild or no symptoms. Deaths have nowhere near reached last years flu figures. The media and government just love to promote worst case scenarios to get a headline on the news.
My wife's aunt lives in a north western suburban nursing home. Six staff and five residents have tested positive with mild or no symptoms and are being treated effectively and without fuss in house. That could easily make a good headline:
ANOTHER NURSING HOME STRUCK DOWN WITH COVID: SIX STAFF AND FIVE RESIDENTS INFECTED. PREMIER SEEKS EXTENSION OF EMERGENCY POWERS.
Dictator Dan is just out to suppress the people to further his own ideals. He doesn't care about the hundreds of thousands of families doing it tough in areas where there has been no COVID-19 at all for 5 months. He won't care when the tens of thousands of people now propped up by the Federal Government eventually find out that they don't have a job to go back to.
He'll just say the words JOBS JOBS JOBS, and his misguided true believers will swoon with adoration.
But first he will inflict more pain and despair on millions of Victorians. He has learnt well from Mao, Stalin,Mugabe, Putin, and many other dictators, but really he is only very small fry.
There are numerous ways that Victoria could already be on the road to recovery, but at the moment Dan hasn't got a clue, because his empty head hasn't been whispered in by his advisors.
brownhillboy
I just love all you conspiracy theory people, you'll stop at nothing to get a laugh , ho ho ho Razz.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Dictator Dan is just out to suppress the people to further his own ideals
"brownhillboy"
Well, don't leave us in suspense; what ideals are these?

But first he will inflict more pain and despair on millions of Victorians. He has learnt well from Mao, Stalin,Mugabe, Putin, and many other dictators, but really he is only very small fry
"brownhillboy"
Very interesting, but there's just one teeny weeny little thing you overlooked - Andrews can be voted out at the next election; your list of stars couldn't be.

There are numerous ways that Victoria could already be on the road to recovery, but at the moment Dan hasn't got a clue . . .
"brownhillboy"
Well I won't be hard to get on with; just give us a couple out of these numerous ways, unless, of course, you have a patent on them.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
brownhillboy, I am going to be gentle to you and say you don’t really know what you are talking about.

I would take a guess and say that you don’t know how many people died from influenza last year. FYI, it was 745, we are just about to complete August, a full third of a year to go, our current COVID-19 body count? 600. Know what that number looks like when you extrapolate by an extra 1/2 for the remainder of the year? 900 deaths.

Sure, COVID-19 has to date ‘killed less than influenza last year’ but if you’re going to say something like that, at least think about what the current situation would look like if given a year.

AND! You will note that society barely takes a precaution against influenza, COVID-19 is on track to make influenza look fairly inept despite all of the precautions we have taken against it.

If we responded as a society to COVID-19 as we do influenza what would the situation look like? Examine the USA.

Last year that ‘nasty’ influenza infected over 35.5 MILLION Americans, and killed 34,200 of those.

The oh so ‘mild and asymptomatic’ COVID this year SO FAR has infected 5.97 MILLION taking 185,000 lives in the process.

So that’s about 5 times the deaths from about 1/6 the infections.

On reflection, I take back what I said in the first paragraph, and now say you have absolutely no smeg idea of what you speak of.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
But first he will inflict more pain and despair on millions of Victorians. He has learnt well from Mao, Stalin,Mugabe, Putin, and many other dictators, but really he is only very small fry
Very interesting, but there's just one teeny weeny little thing you overlooked - Andrews can be voted out at the next election; your list of stars couldn't be.

There are numerous ways that Victoria could already be on the road to recovery, but at the moment Dan hasn't got a clue . . .
Well I won't be hard to get on with; just give us a couple out of these numerous ways, unless, of course, you have a patent on them.
Valvegear
Whatever happens the buck stops with Andrews. Meanwhile which State or Territory has decided to put their economy before public health. NONE.

Yes vote Andrews out. He gets up there and takes media questions for as long as it takes, including loaded ones from Murdoch's lot. He doesn't just turn up for photo ops and good news spin, to walk out when someone asks a half confronting question.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
What will be the end cost of this lockdown and business damage.
Forget the cost. What is the monetary value of your life? If just one life is saved it is worth every cent.
Graham4405
~$4.6M AUD according to the Department of Prime Minster & Cabinet, based on $4.2M in 2014 inflation adjusted...So, let's say this thing will kill 2,000 Australian's before we can get on top of it. That's an economic cost of $9.2B AUD.

So we've gone from a projected surplus of $5.0B to a budget deficit in excess of $85B - a $90 billion dollar turnaround due to Covid and the restrictions' politicians have imposed because of it.

I would take a guess and say that you don’t know how many people died from influenza last year. FYI, it was 745, we are just about to complete August, a full third of a year to go, our current COVID-19 body count? 600. Know what that number looks like when you extrapolate by an extra 1/2 for the remainder of the year? 900 deaths.
Aaron
902 according to the WHO flu summary with over 300,000 laboratory confirmed cases of influenza. 1,100 deaths in 2017 as well.

The question I ask - not of Dan Andrews but of all politicians - is how much is too much? on reading through Clive Palmer's "loss" in the federal court, the only reason I can see it is considered a win for McGowan is the presiding judge focused almost exclusively on what would happen should an uncontrolled outbreak occur in WA, vs the chance of it actually happening and that the hard border has been effective in keeping Covid out of WA. A hard border is effective in keeping almost everything out of a particular place, Covid, tourists, employees, unfortunately not politicians though.

So what happens when it is shown we can't get on top of Covid in the eastern states. Dos WA keep their borders closed indefinitely? Does Dan ram through another state-of-emergency? What's their planned endgame? I ask this as I consider what happened to NZ - they did eliminate the virus. For 3 months, then bang! 2 weeks later and they have over 100 new cases and so far as I can find they still don't know where round two came from!
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
What will be the end cost of this lockdown and business damage.
Forget the cost. What is the monetary value of your life? If just one life is saved it is worth every cent.
~$4.6M AUD according to the Department of Prime Minster & Cabinet, based on $4.2M in 2014 inflation adjusted...So, let's say this thing will kill 2,000 Australian's before we can get on top of it. That's an economic cost of $9.2B AUD.

So we've gone from a projected surplus of $5.0B to a budget deficit in excess of $85B - a $90 billion dollar turnaround due to Covid and the restrictions' politicians have imposed because of it.

I would take a guess and say that you don’t know how many people died from influenza last year. FYI, it was 745, we are just about to complete August, a full third of a year to go, our current COVID-19 body count? 600. Know what that number looks like when you extrapolate by an extra 1/2 for the remainder of the year? 900 deaths.
902 according to the WHO flu summary with over 300,000 laboratory confirmed cases of influenza. 1,100 deaths in 2017 as well.

The question I ask - not of Dan Andrews but of all politicians - is how much is too much? on reading through Clive Palmer's "loss" in the federal court, the only reason I can see it is considered a win for McGowan is the presiding judge focused almost exclusively on what would happen should an uncontrolled outbreak occur in WA, vs the chance of it actually happening and that the hard border has been effective in keeping Covid out of WA. A hard border is effective in keeping almost everything out of a particular place, Covid, tourists, employees, unfortunately not politicians though.

So what happens when it is shown we can't get on top of Covid in the eastern states. Dos WA keep their borders closed indefinitely? Does Dan ram through another state-of-emergency? What's their planned endgame? I ask this as I consider what happened to NZ - they did eliminate the virus. For 3 months, then bang! 2 weeks later and they have over 100 new cases and so far as I can find they still don't know where round two came from!
KRviator
Unfortunately that is the cost that we have to bear, I realize that is a massive blow for our economy, and probably won't be paid off before I am dead, (I am 43 by the way), but it would have been a heck of a lost worse had their been no restrictions at all in place for this.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Whatever happens the buck stops with Andrews.
"Groundrelay"
He is well aware of this. He said so on national television about a month ago.

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