Port Rail Shuttles For Melbourne At Last

 
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Not really, no. The standard gauge might be done but I doubt the broad has been touched. Still doesnt negate the fact that a broad gauge train would have to interface with Metro twice at two fairly busy locations.

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  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Ok, im going to be me and ask the question that im sure you expect me to ask.....

Is there any way that this can be SG.  How much is new build, how much is sharing exisitng (what is actually being built i think is a pertinent question)?
james.au

About 1.5km of new track, all sidings, none of it mainline, then under 1km of new track at the Port end of the project.

No chance it is dual or standard gauge, that would require converting almost the entire Cranbourne line to this location: 36km of single track from Flinders St to the siding turnout... on rail which was just upgraded with the level crossing removals last year.

How likely are the new locos (Salta CEO called them "high speed" trains... lol) to be hybrid elec/diesel?  The overwhelming majority of the route is under wires (wires that have been upgraded too) - wouldn't it make sense to use them and then go under diesel power at both ends?
tayser

It would be the best outcome, far less noise generated by the loco along the suburban routes at night.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Settle down! Let's not get carried away! None of you need to worry about any of this.

Little, if any, especially the BG bit, will ever happen and if it does it will be hamstrung with so many dargs, curfews, limitations, restrictions, inefficiencies and additional costs as to render it a white elephant.

The handful of pages produced by government the other day are the result of a major study done eight years ago. There are so many issues especially with the BG Dandenong trip that it will never happen. Who is going to buy modern BG locos and rolling stock to run 40 km trips a couple of times a day. The mind boggles at the costs, let alone the time and additional terminal factors involved. A couple of Gs and a handful of VQCXs at best would be enough for an initial/trial service.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Battery-powered shunters at either or both ends would be an option, eg;
https://lz1866.com/battery-locomotives

(Even leave the mainline locos is situ.) Might be able to cadge an environmental subsidy, eg the Commonwealth Government’s Direct Action Plan (if there's any money left).
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
One thing that I don't get: Why does anybody think noise issues about freight trains running over 'skyrail' are an issue?

They are not. Heavy freight trains with old diesel electric locos run on that line over night now. There is no reason to think it will be an issue in 3 years time.

If Salta or QUBE or whoever else is going to run these trains find it more cost effective to buy new or used electric locomotives, then that is what they will do. Noise will not likely come into it.

For what it's worth, If it happens, my bet is on G class or N class diesels being the motive power of choice for these trains, at least to begin with.

Is there any way that this can be SG.
James.au
Altona and Somerton will most likely be SG.

Lyndhurst, if it happens at all will certainly be Broad Gauge. You can be guaranteed, we will not see Standard Gauge through Flinders St in the foreseeable future and that is the only available route.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
You want an electric service; Steamrail could hire you a couple of Ls and, perhaps an 'electric chair' (E class) or two plus a couple of W class for the terminal shunters. Ever tried to lift containers under the overhead? SmileRolling Eyes
  UP4014 Beginner

Keep in mind that the Pakenham/Cranbourne corridor is switching to in-cab signalling using CITYFLO 650 ("High-Capacity Signalling"), which coincides with the High Capacity Metro Trains.

I doubt that they will keep the old block signalling running, not only is that an added complexity to make that work nice with the new signalling, but that is an extra thing to maintain.

V/Line/Bombardier are sure to fit the latest VLocity with CITYFLO650. Probably use VLocity for Bairnsdale as well rather than bothering to fit out a Loco.

I don't know what the future holds for the Westall Train Maintenance Facility, but Comengs are being phased out, so it might not be needed for that purpose anymore.

Displacing Comengs and Siemens with HCMTs is simple enough, but there is still a small amount of other Freight services on the line (Maryvale Paper train? Westall Apex? Dandenong Cement?), which will also need to be accomodated.

The most simple solution would be to use Diesels. They can make it to Maryvale. Using the same model Diesel for all of them would simplify the integration of CITYFLO650.

Electric would get in the way of loading/unloading the containers, it is not really cleaner energy as Victoria still relies on coal power.

Trains already are the 2nd biggest user of Electricity in Victoria behind Smelting. A big heavy freight train will suck available power from the substation when the HCMT is going to be thirsty enough. Not to mention that the VIC Government picks up the tab for all Electricity use on the railway network because it's too hard to meter it, and I don't think that the Government would want to pick up the bill for their energy usage.

If they had Dual Power (Diesel-Electric + Electric Pantograph) or two separate locos (one Electric), then they have to worry about lowering and raising the Pantograph constantly, and not causing damage to the existing overhead.

There are enough Diesels on the railway network, a few more won't really matter. Not to mention it is still quite energy efficient given the amount of eight it moves compared to Trucks, etc.

Personally I think that it was dumb to procure HCMTs. Aside from supporting an evil dictatorship, they did not support the local manufacturing industry which actually still exists for building trains. It was also built for obsolete Broad Gauge & 1500V DC.

They have practically renewed the entire 1500V DC overhead and substations to make it compatible with HCMT when they could have upgraded to 25kV AC for less (Substations are smaller & pole mounted, can use existing DC overhead), and the HCMT are so delayed anyway it's not like there is going to be much coexistence.

Switching HCMT to Standard Gauge is probably not going to be practical, would require recertification, and it's already delayed enough. Plus Skyrail was built for Broad (not sure how easy it would be to convert that).

Not having Standard Gauge has really gimped the connectivity for this Inland Port (which has been planned for YEARS before Skyrail & HCMT), and limited connectivity to Gippsland.

Still I hope that this Inland Port is a raging success and justifies the building of the extra track pair on the Dandenong Corridor, but in Standard Gauge. That is realistically the only hope to convert Gippsland to SG and open up Freight out there as well.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Still I hope that this Inland Port is a raging success and justifies the building of the extra track pair on the Dandenong Corridor, but in Standard Gauge. That is realistically the only hope to convert Gippsland to SG and open up Freight out there as well.
UP4014
Um, No. Thats not happening. In the past 4ish years the Dandenong line has been closed for about 18 months. No trains = Unhappy Commuters. Unhappy Commuters = Unhappy Voters. Never See it happening, too much delay for Commuters and for very little gain other than to fulfil a Gunzel dream. I Have Ideas like that, but I know they are never going to happen in a 1000yrs, yet alone view them as realistic.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
You want an electric service; Steamrail could hire you a couple of Ls and, perhaps an 'electric chair' (E class) or two plus a couple of W class for the terminal shunters. Ever tried to lift containers under the overhead? SmileRolling Eyes
YM-Mundrabilla

How do containers get loaded in Europe with extensive electrification with power mostly generated by nuclear nice and clean?

I imagine you would not wire the terminal but the arrivals and departures would be done with a terminal shunter being used to move wagons around.

A good point in the previous with the unreliability of the Dandenong Line could this affect customer sentiment?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
3 of these units https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401737.htm would probably do the job?
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
3 of these units https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401737.htm would probably do the job?
bevans
Consdering they're someone elses units, no.

We really need to stop using all the old crap and start buying new locomotives.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
3 of these units https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401737.htm would probably do the job?
Consdering they're someone elses units, no.

We really need to stop using all the old crap and start buying new locomotives.
speedemon08

Agreed what are the options for some electrics?
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
3 of these units https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401737.htm would probably do the job?
Consdering they're someone elses units, no.

We really need to stop using all the old crap and start buying new locomotives.

Agreed what are the options for some electrics?
bevans
Anything European, Stadler(Vossloh)/Alstom more than likely. Alstom has done Western Asian/Russian Electrics (5ft) and Stadler brought Vossloh Locomotives which in the past have made stuff for Spain and Portugal (5ft 6in)




https://www.flickr.com/photos/lumixfan68/49986987613

I'd rather the EuroDual getting used, since it's a proven true dual mode electric/diesel for the most part that would sort of fit our loading gauge, and being Stadler/Vossloh more than likely not that hard to get 5ft 3in bogies under.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
3 of these units https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401737.htm would probably do the job?
Consdering they're someone elses units, no.

We really need to stop using all the old crap and start buying new locomotives.

Agreed what are the options for some electrics?
bevans
I can't see them using sparks with the 1500kv DC power supply's limitations. And No, they are not going to convert the entire network or line 25kv/AC for a once daily service. Cant imagine they are going to fork out the dough for any of it. Sadly unrealistic, probably going to use some second hand DEs
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
3 of these units https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401737.htm would probably do the job?
Consdering they're someone elses units, no.

We really need to stop using all the old crap and start buying new locomotives.

Agreed what are the options for some electrics?
bevans
None.

BG
1,500 V DC
100 km/day/loco at best

Could not even justify one W class and one GY on a weekly service.
Perhaps a couple of swing door motors and an I truck!
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
3 of these units https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401737.htm would probably do the job?
Consdering they're someone elses units, no.

We really need to stop using all the old crap and start buying new locomotives.

Agreed what are the options for some electrics?
I can't see them using sparks with the 1500kv DC power supply's limitations. And No, they are not going to convert the entire 25kv/AC for a once daily service. Cant imagine they are going to fork out the dough for any of it. Sadly unrealistic, probably going to use some second hand DEs
Dangersdan707
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't one aspect of the entire catenary upgrades for Pakenham/Cranbourne and now Sunbury to shift the voltage up to 3000v DC?

Why are people still saying 1500v DC?

edit: v not kv! Very Happy
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
3kV was mentioned in documentation as something that the HCMT could operate at but they can't do that until the Sunshine to Dandenong corridor is solely operated by HCMT, &/or other 3kV capable trains, so not before 2025 and there was no guarantee that the change in voltage would actually happen. The upgrade is, probably, necessary due to the additional load that the HCMT are going to draw.
Sorry, can't find the relevant documentation quickly.

Neil
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Wouldn't changing only 1 corridor (Sunbury to Pakenham/Cranbourne) to a different voltage effectively isolate that corridor from the rest of the network?

How would you go operating existing electric rollingstock under the new high powered lines?

And if that is not possible, how would you go with the intervening period? It isn't as if all of the required HCMTs will be available to displace all of the Comengs immediately, I can only assume both types of train will need to operate together for some time yet.
  Upven Junior Train Controller

Wouldn't changing only 1 corridor (Sunbury to Pakenham/Cranbourne) to a different voltage effectively isolate that corridor from the rest of the network?

How would you go operating existing electric rollingstock under the new high powered lines?

And if that is not possible, how would you go with the intervening period? It isn't as if all of the required HCMTs will be available to displace all of the Comengs immediately, I can only assume both types of train will need to operate together for some time yet.
Gman_86
Isn't the whole point of this tunnel to break our railway lines into seperate isolated lines so they don't stuff each other up if one goes down?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Somerton the third site:

  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
So I am guessing that after this announcement that means that the port rail shuttles have begun?

Or is it just the next in a very long line of outings with the press to announce the same thing, yet again?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
How could they announce this and at the same time commit to building NEL which is all about the road freight lobby?

Dates for it to be up and running?

I would also think about some industrial sidings at Kalkalo with all the warehousing going in around there and no rail access.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
So I am guessing that after this announcement that means that the port rail shuttles have begun?

Or is it just the next in a very long line of outings with the press to announce the same thing, yet again?
Gman_86
I would say the latter, as Somerton was announced as being a third 'port' earlier in the year, joining Altona and Lyndhurst, with QUBE intending to do their own at Beveridge, without government aid.

Neil
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
So I am guessing that after this announcement that means that the port rail shuttles have begun?

Or is it just the next in a very long line of outings with the press to announce the same thing, yet again?
Gman_86
No and yes?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

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