Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller


In the meantime a hub at Sunshine has linked Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo/Seymour(and their preceding Metro) with the airport and each other, plus of course the rest of Melbourne to the South and East via MM1.

That hub, with a 5-10 year head start, will have established travel patterns for pax to work their best way around.
Building a short-cut from Carolyn Springs via Watergardens to the airport would be of questionable value. A business case for it's owm merit.

John


Im very much aware it's not an East V West issue. I think they call it a play on words.

Melbourne Airport has already confirmed they will build an underground station.

If MARL and SRL are built by two different consotriums I can't see the TBM for one consortium helping out the other. They will most likely be two seperate projects, years apart.

As for Sunshine, the idea of having 'minor' interchanges further down the branch line (Sunbury & Melton) is to spread peak passenger loadings. You are going to have 8 different lines interchange at one station. This is a lot of people all in the one location, even with an upgrade Sunshine still needs to handle tens of thousands of passengers during the peak hours.

Station locations are just suggestions and when and if the North West Section gets built I imagine the government off the day will have a business case to confirm the best locations for said stations. Watgerardens and Caroline Spring are the closest the outer north west has to activity hubs. SRL will allow for more intense development of housing and Jobs around the stations locations, as is planned in the east. The lack of any major education or jobs anchor in the north west is a prime example of the differences best East and West.

In the East SRL is intended to serve those exisiting hubs that already have strong demand. In the North and the West SRL will be catalyst for these hubs.  

Lockie
Lockie91
Possibly 2, or more consortia get pieces to do.

For a 2km tunnel at the Airport, could not cost justify a TBM on its own.
Either use road headers at double the unit cost(and price yourself out of the bid), or sell a used machine to another piece of the puzzle.
It's not helping each other, it's good business.
Would be interesting to see who bids to do the lot.

It's also not years apart. Both MARL and SRL-east are slated to start 2022.
If SRL-west starts after MARL is finished, that's still 2025 at best, with another 5 years to meet SRL-east. I doubt the Airport could counteance 2 separate work sites setting up, doubling the inevitable disruption.

I would hardly call Sunshine an 8 line junction. There is one extra service, and unlikely to need a new platform. Current Up/Down for RRL and Sunbury remain the same, with perhaps Bendigo trains actually stopping.

When Melton and/or Wyndham Vale are sparked, that is another pair for the station to manage. That's regardless of SRL or MARL and one of the more expensive problems for that project.

Last time I worked at Vic Uni, it was a major centre. 15 years on, its doubled. More students than LaTrobe.
Tullamarine is the light industry centre.
The extra stations you hypothesized are middle of ever growing dormitory suburbs.  
Nothing on the horizon for jobs, except huge plans for Arden, which is probably not west enough for your purpose.

cheers
John
"justarider"


There is no public state date for MARL, we are yet to even see what it will be. SRL Stage 1 has an expected start date of 2022, that would be Cheltenham to Box Hill. The Broadmeadows - Airport connection is stage 3, as yet to even have a plan. IF and a very big IF, planing works were to start on stages 2 & 3 while stage 1 is under construction this would allow construction to start late 2020's. The IF is politics, Stage 1 might be all we see depending on the next election.

By the time MARL & SRL roll into Sunshine it will service Melton, WV, Sunbury Metro Lines; Ballarat, Geelong, Bendigo Interurban Lines; Airport & SRL. That is a lot of pax interchanging in the one location.

As I've said SRL does not need to serve the same purpose west of the city as it does east of the city. The Eastern suburbs already enjoy far superior public transport, with a collection of lines already at TAG frequency, tram links and a dense bus network. The outer reaches of the east are suffering from the same problem at the west. However, the vast majority have good links to public transport.
This is not the case in the west. There are only two metro lines running at capacity during peak, no far reaching tram network and an add hoc bus network that does not offer the same suburb to suburb connections as the east.

SRL may be the 'last mile' connection in the east and north, connecting pax from branch lines to employment centres. In the west it will need to do a lot more heavy lifting and will be the principle public transport link for many people. All lines to Sunshine looks good on a map for politicians as no detailed planing for this stage is likely to take place during their time in office. Watergardens, Caroline Springs are already minor employment clusters with the potential for major development to serve as hubs for the hundreds of thousands that live around them. Connecting these minor hubs into major clusters such as Broadmeadows, Doncaster and Box Hill serves the SRL's primary objective of creating 20 minute cities as outlined in Plan Melbourne.

A lot is going to change before SRL gets anywhere near the west, a business case will be conducted just as one is now in the east to make sure the project gets maximum bang for its buck. Regardless of where stations may or may not sprout up, I highly doubt all lines will lead to Sunshine for the completed project.

Lockie

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  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Sunshine is a major employment precinct and trip generator, but so is Footscray and Camberwell and Caulfield. It's too close to the CBD to be useful long term for what the SRL aims to do.

Just because the population centre of Melbourne currently sits well east of the CBD doesn't mean it always will, and future planning needs to take this into account.

There is nothing wrong with a shuttle link between Sunshine and Airport, using the same technology as SRL, but it's a poor outcome to deny those west of the airport in a growing and developing area access to the same transport options (both radial and circular) as the east, just because it gives those out east train access to the airport.

MARL and SRL are and should always be considered two seperate projects. Combining them provides poor outcomes for all. But it's the same reasoning that we have 40 minute frequencies on weekends, and the same reason why multiple lines share one city loop tunnel unnecessarily. Cheap and easy votes for elections over actual policy which is designed to maximise the public purse.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Sunshine is a major employment precinct and trip generator, but so is Footscray and Camberwell and Caulfield. It's too close to the CBD to be useful long term for what the SRL aims to do.

Just because the population centre of Melbourne currently sits well east of the CBD doesn't mean it always will, and future planning needs to take this into account.

There is nothing wrong with a shuttle link between Sunshine and Airport, using the same technology as SRL, but it's a poor outcome to deny those west of the airport in a growing and developing area access to the same transport options (both radial and circular) as the east, just because it gives those out east train access to the airport.

MARL and SRL are and should always be considered two seperate projects. Combining them provides poor outcomes for all. But it's the same reasoning that we have 40 minute frequencies on weekends, and the same reason why multiple lines share one city loop tunnel unnecessarily. Cheap and easy votes for elections over actual policy which is designed to maximise the public purse.
"John.Z"


If MARL is built as a semi regular metro service then it can provide the link between Sunshine - Airport - Broadmeadows. Melbourne Airport could serve as the interchange location for those wishing to continue on to the east. If pax were only charged a standard Myki fare as long as they remained within the paid area of the station, I cannot see why this wouldn't work.

I understand where @justarider is coming from, these hubs and clusters are already well established in the east. They are significant trip generators and do not sit with in the easy reaches of the rail network. They are causing significant congestion and require heavy rail links to continue to develop. The west is at the other end of the spectrum, these hubs are in their infancy or do not yet exist. Such is the rapid development of the west, there is no time to let the hubs develop until they are significant trip generators. There is no Doncaster or Monash out in the west. The vast majority of residents are commuting to employment well outside there LGA. SRL stations will define these new hubs or clusters, just as it serves existing hubs in the east. These could be places like Watergardens or it could be purpose planned brownfield site like Arden.

Running SRL via Sunshine & RRL, is just a cheap outcome that will not benefit the massive development taking place in the west. We also have a habit of underestimating how much politics plays into public transport planing.

Lockie
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
"Massive development in the west" will predominantly be contained to the Melton and Wyndham Vale corridors, not Watergardens/Sunbury - assuming pre-COVID development patterns continue.  Demand for more services on the Sunbury line is likely to be contained to the Sunbury area because the rest of the corridor is built out.



Larger image: https://www.sro.vic.gov.au/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Map-of-greater-Melbourne-2018.jpg
  Hovedale Beginner

Not SRL but looking at the giant empty light blue area on that map from Wollert to Wallan a link from the proposed Wollert line to the Wallan line around Donnybrook / Beveridge should be built. Build MM2 and you can run trains via that.   How crazy Wallan trains would have the option of three lines!.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

"Massive development in the west" will predominantly be contained to the Melton and Wyndham Vale corridors, not Watergardens/Sunbury - assuming pre-COVID development patterns continue.  Demand for more services on the Sunbury line is likely to be contained to the Sunbury area because the rest of the corridor is built out.



Larger image: https://www.sro.vic.gov.au/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Map-of-greater-Melbourne-2018.jpg
"tayser"


If you're going to use a map, at least use the right one. You have found a map from the SRO or State Revenue Office.

If you have a look through the map room on the Plan Melbourne website, you will find something more relevant. If you have a look at the western map you will see that development is planned from Watergardens through to Melton along the Melton Highway. New suburbs of Plumpton, Rockbank North and Toolern. These suburbs, mainly Plumpton, site within a transport black hole that exists as the Suburb and Melton lines move away from each other. SRL from the Airport to Watergardens then on to Plumpton and Hopkins Road Employment Precinct would add the cross suburbs connections that SRL is achieving in the East.

As for Sunbury Line, show term it will experience major growth owning to the 70,000 homes that are approved for construction in Sunbury and Diggers Rest. Both these PSP are already well under constructions and thousands of news residents are calling the area home each year. Over time the pressures will shift to the Melton and to some extent the Wyndham Vale Lines as entire new suburbs start to appear. Something a long the lines of 300,000 new residents are expected to call this area home by 2050. Plan Melbourne has a target of one third of residents being employed in the area, another third within the surrounding suburbs with the remainder communing to the CBD. That is an extra 100,000 people driving or catching the train to CBD employment zones. SRL works to achieve the first two, moving people to the next suburb or cross suburb. Whether this be to Hopkins Road, or Werribee in the West. Or The Airport, Broadmeadows or Monash in the East.

With the SRL's current route, there is no suburb to suburb connection in the West, with all those new suburbs need to use the same lines to travel to Sunshine before being able to travel radially. For Example, pax in Sunbury, Watergardens, Brimbank, Melton, Rockbank and Toolern would all need to travel too Sunshine to access the Werribee Employment Zone or Airport. These pax need to compete with non radial pax heading to the CBD.

https://www.planmelbourne.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/380306/map-Western.pdf

Lockie
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
"Massive development in the west" will predominantly be contained to the Melton and Wyndham Vale corridors, not Watergardens/Sunbury - assuming pre-COVID development patterns continue.  Demand for more services on the Sunbury line is likely to be contained to the Sunbury area because the rest of the corridor is built out.



Larger image: https://www.sro.vic.gov.au/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Map-of-greater-Melbourne-2018.jpg


If you're going to use a map, at least use the right one. You have found a map from the SRO or State Revenue Office.

If you have a look through the map room on the Plan Melbourne website, you will find something more relevant. If you have a look at the western map you will see that development is planned from Watergardens through to Melton along the Melton Highway. New suburbs of Plumpton, Rockbank North and Toolern. These suburbs, mainly Plumpton, site within a transport black hole that exists as the Suburb and Melton lines move away from each other. SRL from the Airport to Watergardens then on to Plumpton and Hopkins Road Employment Precinct would add the cross suburbs connections that SRL is achieving in the East.

As for Sunbury Line, show term it will experience major growth owning to the 70,000 homes that are approved for construction in Sunbury and Diggers Rest. Both these PSP are already well under constructions and thousands of news residents are calling the area home each year. Over time the pressures will shift to the Melton and to some extent the Wyndham Vale Lines as entire new suburbs start to appear. Something a long the lines of 300,000 new residents are expected to call this area home by 2050. Plan Melbourne has a target of one third of residents being employed in the area, another third within the surrounding suburbs with the remainder communing to the CBD. That is an extra 100,000 people driving or catching the train to CBD employment zones. SRL works to achieve the first two, moving people to the next suburb or cross suburb. Whether this be to Hopkins Road, or Werribee in the West. Or The Airport, Broadmeadows or Monash in the East.

With the SRL's current route, there is no suburb to suburb connection in the West, with all those new suburbs need to use the same lines to travel to Sunshine before being able to travel radially. For Example, pax in Sunbury, Watergardens, Brimbank, Melton, Rockbank and Toolern would all need to travel too Sunshine to access the Werribee Employment Zone or Airport. These pax need to compete with non radial pax heading to the CBD.

https://www.planmelbourne.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/380306/map-Western.pdf

Lockie
Lockie91
Hair splitting much?

The SRO's map shows: existing built-up urban area and the urban growth boundary a nice high-level, easy way to see what's there and what's not there and what could be built over time.

anyhow, moving right along.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

The premier made a brief mention in todays presser (35m underground at the site of the State Library station) about the SRL. I'm paraphrasing but the Metro rail tunnel was described as the state's biggest infrastructure project in it's history, dwarfed only by the SRL which will feature in the budget in a few weeks time.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Today we're announcing $2.2 billion to kickstart Stage One of the Suburban Rail Loop. We're also locking in locations for the six underground stations as part of Stage One – and confirming that the line will start near Southland.

  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

$2.2 Billion announced for early works package on Stage 1 this morning.

No formal media release from the premier as yet, but a flash new video has gone up on Facebook.

Also confirms location of the start point will be Southland, with a station marker on the corner of Bay and Reserve roads.

Construction is still slated for 2022. With this announcement I would expect to see plenty more activity over the next 12 - 18 months as properties are acquired, services reloaded and TBM launch sites constructed.

Hopefully some formal documentation will be released during the day, with the finalised route.

https://fb.watch/1NqUhxBvmz/

Lockie
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Today we're announcing $2.2 billion to kickstart Stage One of the Suburban Rail Loop. We're also locking in locations for the six underground stations as part of Stage One – and confirming that the line will start near Southland.

bevans
one day I will beat you to the punch Razz
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
It is an exiting project but concerned the loop will not access Chadstone Shopping Centre?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

It is an exiting project but concerned the loop will not access Chadstone Shopping Centre?
bevans
Nope.

Chadstone is best served as an extension of the Alamein Line and the Light Rail from Caulfield as a 1-2 punch. One loop does not preclude other cross-city connections.

Ideal world, they'd run a shuttle from Camberwell to Rowville via Alamein and Chadstone, but I'd settle for Alamein-Malvern East-Chadstone-Oakleigh
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

It is an exiting project but concerned the loop will not access Chadstone Shopping Centre?
Nope.

Chadstone is best served as an extension of the Alamein Line and the Light Rail from Caulfield as a 1-2 punch. One loop does not preclude other cross-city connections.

Ideal world, they'd run a shuttle from Camberwell to Rowville via Alamein and Chadstone, but I'd settle for Alamein-Malvern East-Chadstone-Oakleigh
John.Z
I wonder if the forgotten Caulfield to Rowville Light Rail will make a come back in the next couple of years.

When it was announced it made very little sense, with the SRL and a connection at Monash Uni it is the perfect solution for increasing local transport; As well as serving the behemoth that is Chadstone.

SRL cannot link every major destination in the suburbs. One would hope that as stations come online local transport gets revamp.

Lockie
  Carnot Minister for Railways

A bit more info here: https://suburbanrailloop.vic.gov.au/News/Works-to-kick-off-on-the-Suburban-Rail-Loop

"The funding will purchase land, upgrade roads and power supply, build new sub-stations, relocate and protect gas, water and other utilities, and deliver other vital works to prepare for major construction."

Looks to me that this $2.2 Billion is basically a lot of the stuff that needs to happen to allow the TBMs to get in and get going, along with station access and utility provision...  Will they re-use the Metro Tunnel TBMs I wonder?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
It is an exiting project but concerned the loop will not access Chadstone Shopping Centre?
Nope.

Chadstone is best served as an extension of the Alamein Line and the Light Rail from Caulfield as a 1-2 punch. One loop does not preclude other cross-city connections.

Ideal world, they'd run a shuttle from Camberwell to Rowville via Alamein and Chadstone, but I'd settle for Alamein-Malvern East-Chadstone-Oakleigh
John.Z

John we need to see some rail access to Chadstone.  This is vital in my view.
  Goose13 Station Master

Location: Having a sook about Southern cross's western wall
It is an exiting project but concerned the loop will not access Chadstone Shopping Centre?
Nope.

Chadstone is best served as an extension of the Alamein Line and the Light Rail from Caulfield as a 1-2 punch. One loop does not preclude other cross-city connections.

Ideal world, they'd run a shuttle from Camberwell to Rowville via Alamein and Chadstone, but I'd settle for Alamein-Malvern East-Chadstone-Oakleigh
I wonder if the forgotten Caulfield to Rowville Light Rail will make a come back in the next couple of years.

When it was announced it made very little sense, with the SRL and a connection at Monash Uni it is the perfect solution for increasing local transport; As well as serving the behemoth that is Chadstone.

SRL cannot link every major destination in the suburbs. One would hope that as stations come online local transport gets revamp.

Lockie
Lockie91
It should since (at least according to MP Rod Barton), the delay was from the wait for the final location of the Monash station of the SRL. But I guess we will see, fingers crossed though.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Also confirms location of the start point will be Southland, with a station marker on the corner of Bay and Reserve roads.
Lockie91

I hope it's not there and closer to the existing Southland station. I think much of the success of this project will depend on easy interchange with existing lines. It should be like in Singapore where you can get from the Circle line to other lines at interchanges within like 2-3 minutes on travelators or just walking through tunnels.
  slowcoach Junior Train Controller

Would the current Burwood station on the Alamein Line be renamed?
Or would the future SRL Burwood station have a different name such as Deakin?
  chomper Junior Train Controller

It is an exiting project but concerned the loop will not access Chadstone Shopping Centre?
Nope.

Chadstone is best served as an extension of the Alamein Line and the Light Rail from Caulfield as a 1-2 punch. One loop does not preclude other cross-city connections.

Ideal world, they'd run a shuttle from Camberwell to Rowville via Alamein and Chadstone, but I'd settle for Alamein-Malvern East-Chadstone-Oakleigh

John we need to see some rail access to Chadstone.  This is vital in my view.
bevans

Chadstone does need rail, there are other ways of provisioning it, extension of the Alamein line for example.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

John we need to see some rail access to Chadstone.  This is vital in my view.
bevans
To quote myself:

"Chadstone is best served as an extension of the Alamein Line"

"Ideal world, they'd run a shuttle from Camberwell to Rowville via Alamein and Chadstone, but I'd settle for Alamein-Malvern East-Chadstone-Oakleigh"

I agree, just don't think it's best served by the SRL
  Upven Locomotive Driver

Can't wait to see what walls that $2.2b gets pissed up against. Over to you Auditor General's Office..
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Also confirms location of the start point will be Southland, with a station marker on the corner of Bay and Reserve roads.

I hope it's not there and closer to the existing Southland station. I think much of the success of this project will depend on easy interchange with existing lines. It should be like in Singapore where you can get from the Circle line to other lines at interchanges within like 2-3 minutes on travelators or just walking through tunnels.
reubstar6
I imagine it will be smack underneath Southland, with these to road just being the tow major roads that were visible from the video. There is a large reserve at this location though, so it may be TBM support in the future.

Would the current Burwood station on the Alamein Line be renamed? Or would the future SRL Burwood station have a different name such as Deakin?
Slowcoach
I suspect it will be named Deakin, Just as Monash will be named after the university.

John we need to see some rail access to Chadstone. This is vital in my view.
Bevan
Does it?
The only benefit of spending billions of dollars on an exstention of the Alamein line is Chady. Its not a development area, with any future development to be constrained to the shopping centre, not the surrounding area.

Currently a ten minute bus service between the Glen Waverly and Dandenong Lines is all that it needs, boost it to 5 if needed in the future.
Light Rail(?) if built, will link Caulfield too Monash SRL and on to Rowville providing connections to Chaddy every few minutes.

If Chadstone wants heavy rail that much they can stump up the Billion it will cost just to build a station under the shopping centre, let alone the rest of it.

Lockie
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Can't wait to see what walls that $2.2b gets pissed up against. Over to you Auditor General's Office..
Upven
The absolute smeg of services that need to be relocated.
  megahertz Station Staff

Location: In the hills
Chadstone could be dealt with as a first stage by extending the #3 tram along Waverley Road to East Malvern Station, then through the station carpark and down the urban forest reserve (old outer circle alignment) to Dandenong Road, and along the northern side of Dandenong Road to Chadstone.

I would avoid using the centre median on Dandenong Road as it is fairly narrow and creates two conflicts with traffic movement as it crosses the outbound lanes to reach the centre. I also do not think that continuing on Waverley Road to Chadstone Road is a good option as Waverley Road is quite narrow from the Malvern Road intersection as is Chadstone Road, it is circuitous, private houses would need to be demolished to make the Waverley Road / Chadstone Road curve (it is an acute angle) and it arrives on the wrong side of Chadstone to the existing bus terminal.

And I agree with John Z that extending the Alamein Line underground to Oakleigh via Chadstone and making this a shuttle service  would be a good longer term solution here. Conceptually this could be reconfigured to operate similar (and using similar equipment) to the SRL.

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