Inland Railway - Construction Phase

 
  WimbledonW Train Controller

Location: Sydney
Of course if there were 365,000 clips at 2 clips per sleeper, there should be about 182,500 sleepers. Sad
Except there are typically 4 clips per sleeper, one on the gauge side of each rail foot, one on the field side.
KRviator
Good grief, you're right. SadSadSad But there are 2 baseplates per sleeper. Smile

For "unofficial" track diagram of P2N see https://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/ARTC/AR471.pdf.

There are three crossing loops from 1850m to 2050m, not including the turnouts. Also a few wheat sidings and a siding for track machines. Strangely two of the 1100m long wheat sidings is signalled almost as if it were a crossing loop, albeit with catchpoints and motor points.

Sponsored advertisement

  WimbledonW Train Controller

Location: Sydney
There are three crossing loops from 1850m to 2050m, not including the turnouts. Also a few wheat sidings and a siding for track machines. Strangely one of the 1000m long wheat sidings is signalled almost as if it were a crossing loop, albeit with catchpoints and motor points.
WimbledonW
It is ARTC practice to call the "crossing loops" as "sidings", so that it is not clear if the genuine wheat sidings can be used for crossing purposes. These wheat sidings are much less than 1800m long.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
@WimbledonW - you've got 3 consecutive posts here, when editing your first one is more than sufficient. A bunch of your posts in the International forum have been locked due to post-whoring, you need to stop replying to your own posts and spamming the forums.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
There are three crossing loops from 1850m to 2050m, not including the turnouts. Also a few wheat sidings and a siding for track machines. Strangely one of the 1000m long wheat sidings is signalled almost as if it were a crossing loop, albeit with catchpoints and motor points.
It is ARTC practice to call the "crossing loops" as "sidings", so that it is not clear if the genuine wheat sidings can be used for crossing purposes. These wheat sidings are much less than 1800m long.
WimbledonW
I don't know anything about ARTC nomenclature but if they use the terms 'crossing loop' and 'siding' interchangeably they are wrong. The terms are not interchangeable as they describe two totally different facilities.
A crossing loop is a running line whereas a siding is not. Naturally sidings must be signalled (or otherwise protected) where they connect to a running line.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
It is ARTC practice to call the "crossing loops" as "sidings", so that it is not clear if the genuine wheat sidings can be used for crossing purposes. These wheat sidings are much less than 1800m long.
WimbledonW
UUh, what?!? Who told you that? Because they're full of shyte...Granted I haven't worked a train over ARTC territory in a decade, but I did my ARTC re-qualification last month and don't recall that being mentioned...

From ARTC's COP Glossary:
Crossing loop - A line, secondary to the main line, provided primarily for crossing or passing trains.
Running line - A line (other than a siding) that is used for the through movement of trains.
Siding - A portion of line connected by points to a main line or loop where vehicles can be placed or stored

And From ARTC's NSW Glossary:
Crossing Loop - A running line in single-line territory, with entry and exit ends connected to a main line, that is used to hold a train or track vehicle to allow other rail traffic to cross or pass.
Running Line - A line (other than a siding) which is used for through movement of trains. See also main line and siding.
Siding - A portion of track where vehicles can be placed clear of the running lines
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
UUh, what?!? Who told you that? Because they're full of shyte...Granted I haven't worked a train over ARTC territory in a decade, but I did my ARTC re-qualification last month and don't recall that being mentioned...
KRviator
I have run a train over ARTC territory in the last 48 hours and you're 100% correct. Siding is not used to describe crossing loops or passing lanes.
  WimbledonW Train Controller

Location: Sydney
UUh, what?!? Who told you that? Because they're full of shyte...Granted I haven't worked a train over ARTC territory in a decade, but I did my ARTC re-qualification last month and don't recall that being mentioned...
I have run a train over ARTC territory in the last 48 hours and you're 100% correct. Siding is not used to describe crossing loops or passing lanes.
Fatty
(1) These "unofficial" diagrams call the tracks at a crossing loop "Main" and "Siding" https://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/ARTC/AR471.pdf.

(2) I did challenge the author of these diagrams that surely the (crossing) "siding" should actually be called "loop" or "crossing loop".

(3) The author of these diagrams said in reply that the "crossing loop" was indeed called "siding".

(4) Maybe the newly built ARTC sections of the Inland Railway use different terminology.

(5) I will have to ask that author again.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
@WimbledonW you seem to have a fascination with those SA-Track&Signal diagrams, having posted them here many times and helpful though they are occasionally, they are not operational documents issued by the network owners.

I see you've disagreed with @Fatty's post above. Why you've done that I cannot fathom, he is a qualified Driver on the ARTC network. I am a qualified Driver who has just done his ARTC safe-working re-certification less than 4 weeks ago and you have been provided with the ARTC glossary in addition.

The network owner lists them as either a "Grain Loop" or "Loop" in their relevant system maps and I would encourage you to not try to pass off as a statement of fact, information you receive from non-operational sources.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I have run a train over ARTC territory in the last 48 hours and you're 100% correct. Siding is not used to describe crossing loops or passing lanes.
(1) These "unofficial" diagrams call the tracks at a crossing loop "Main" and "Siding" https://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/ARTC/AR471.pdf.

(2) I did challenge the author of these diagrams that surely the (crossing) "siding" should actually be called "loop" or "crossing loop".

(3) The author of these diagrams said in reply that the "crossing loop" was indeed called "siding".

(4) Maybe the newly built ARTC sections of the Inland Railway use different terminology.

(5) I will have to ask that author again.
WimbledonW
Do you have any actual evidence beside another gunzel to back your claims?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
It is ARTC practice to call the "crossing loops" as "sidings", so that it is not clear if the genuine wheat sidings can be used for crossing purposes. These wheat sidings are much less than 1800m long.
UUh, what?!? Who told you that? Because they're full of shyte...Granted I haven't worked a train over ARTC territory in a decade, but I did my ARTC re-qualification last month and don't recall that being mentioned...

From ARTC's COP Glossary:
Crossing loop - A line, secondary to the main line, provided primarily for crossing or passing trains.
Running line - A line (other than a siding) that is used for the through movement of trains.
Siding - A portion of line connected by points to a main line or loop where vehicles can be placed or stored

And From ARTC's NSW Glossary:
Crossing Loop - A running line in single-line territory, with entry and exit ends connected to a main line, that is used to hold a train or track vehicle to allow other rail traffic to cross or pass.
Running Line - A line (other than a siding) which is used for through movement of trains. See also main line and siding.
Siding - A portion of track where vehicles can be placed clear of the running lines
KRviator
Do they define passing lane anywhere which is what ive heard the ~7km long crossing loops called in places, or is this a non technical term?
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Do they define passing lane anywhere which is what ive heard the ~7km long crossing loops called in places, or is this a non technical term?
james.au

"Passing Lane" is used on trackside signage and network diagrams: https://www.artc.com.au/uploads/ARTCS3090006_NS_Sth.pdf not sure where it's defined though.

edit: It's not in the ARTC Glossary I have a copy of. I'll look for an updated version.

edit2: Not in the latest ARTC glossary either. Siding and crossing loop are though Razz: https://www.artc.com.au/uploads/Glossary_I-3_Rev-1.pdf
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Well said KR and Fatty.
To me 'passing lane' is a road term. Railways have 'lines' not lanes.
These long passing lines are, to me, either just long crossing loops or short sections of bi-directional (?) double line.
As a matter of interest, how many hotshot trains scream past others dawdling along in a so-called passing lane as distinct from 'running crosses' which I concede are of great potential advantage.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Of course if there were 365,000 clips at 2 clips per sleeper, there should be about 182,500 sleepers. Sad
Except there are typically 4 clips per sleeper, one on the gauge side of each rail foot, one on the field side.
Good grief, you're right. SadSadSad But there are 2 baseplates per sleeper. Smile

For "unofficial" track diagram of P2N see https://www.sa-trackandsignal.net/Pdf%20files/ARTC/AR471.pdf.

There are three crossing loops from 1850m to 2050m, not including the turnouts. Also a few wheat sidings and a siding for track machines. Strangely two of the 1100m long wheat sidings is signalled almost as if it were a crossing loop, albeit with catchpoints and motor points.
WimbledonW
Crossing loops are measured between fouling points ie the maximum length of train that can be accommodated therein.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Well said KR and Fatty.
To me 'passing lane' is a road term. Railways have 'lines' not lanes.
These long passing lines are, to me, either just long crossing loops or short sections of bi-directional (?) double line.
As a matter of interest, how many hotshot trains scream past others dawdling along in a so-called passing lane as distinct from 'running crosses' which I concede are of great potential advantage.
YM-Mundrabilla
I agree - it doesn't make sense to call them passing lanes but we'll just add it to the long list of things about railways that make no sense. They are, as you say, just long crossing loops.

Running crosses aren't as common as they should be and there's no advantage to the long loops when being overtaken as the slower train will have to stop anyway to wait for the faster train to clear. The main advantage to the long crossing loops is that a train can pull into them at a relatively high speed and have plenty of time to stop so clears the section for the opposing traffic faster.

The "passing lanes" in Victoria are pointless as the archaic signalling used only allows for trains to go as far as the intermediate signals.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
It is ARTC practice to call the "crossing loops" as "sidings", so that it is not clear if the genuine wheat sidings can be used for crossing purposes. These wheat sidings are much less than 1800m long.
UUh, what?!? Who told you that? Because they're full of shyte...Granted I haven't worked a train over ARTC territory in a decade, but I did my ARTC re-qualification last month and don't recall that being mentioned...

From ARTC's COP Glossary:
Crossing loop - A line, secondary to the main line, provided primarily for crossing or passing trains.
Running line - A line (other than a siding) that is used for the through movement of trains.
Siding - A portion of line connected by points to a main line or loop where vehicles can be placed or stored

And From ARTC's NSW Glossary:
Crossing Loop - A running line in single-line territory, with entry and exit ends connected to a main line, that is used to hold a train or track vehicle to allow other rail traffic to cross or pass.
Running Line - A line (other than a siding) which is used for through movement of trains. See also main line and siding.
Siding - A portion of track where vehicles can be placed clear of the running lines
Do they define passing lane anywhere which is what ive heard the ~7km long crossing loops called in places, or is this a non technical term?
james.au
I am not aware as to whether it has any officially or properly defined status. The term 'passing lane' is much favoured on here (by gunzels?) but, as I have said elsewhere they are, to me, just long crossing loops where opposing trains can cross each other or a following train may overtake another travelling in the same direction. The greater the length the greater the convenience but the principle is unchanged. Still I suppose a new gee wizz term fools the proletariat.

The foregoing are the precise purposes of 'crossing loops' which have been around since the invention of railways 200 years ago.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Well said KR and Fatty.
To me 'passing lane' is a road term. Railways have 'lines' not lanes.
These long passing lines are, to me, either just long crossing loops or short sections of bi-directional (?) double line.
As a matter of interest, how many hotshot trains scream past others dawdling along in a so-called passing lane as distinct from 'running crosses' which I concede are of great potential advantage.
YM-Mundrabilla


Well lane isnt just a road term but also a sea one - cf shipping lanes Wink.  There is also some slight usage in the aviation context too  but moreso from an air traffic control perspective rather than a general use one.

To add to the strangeness in words, why are loops not actually loops?  They dont look like a loop to me Wink
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
A solution to a problem that did not exist ..................... Smile
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

I am not aware as to whether it has any officially or properly defined status. The term 'passing lane' is much favoured on here (by gunzels?) but, as I have said elsewhere they are, to me, just long crossing loops where opposing trains can cross each other or a following train may overtake another travelling in the same direction. The greater the length the greater the convenience but the principle is unchanged. Still I suppose a new gee wizz term fools the proletariat.

The foregoing are the precise purposes of 'crossing loops' which have been around since the invention of railways 200 years ago.
YM-Mundrabilla
I thought "Passing Lane" was just PR spin in trying to inform an ignorant public of the work that ARTC was doing, but unfortunately the term seems to have gained some traction.
I think they are just long loops.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I am not aware as to whether it has any officially or properly defined status. The term 'passing lane' is much favoured on here (by gunzels?) but, as I have said elsewhere they are, to me, just long crossing loops where opposing trains can cross each other or a following train may overtake another travelling in the same direction. The greater the length the greater the convenience but the principle is unchanged. Still I suppose a new gee wizz term fools the proletariat.

The foregoing are the precise purposes of 'crossing loops' which have been around since the invention of railways 200 years ago.
I thought "Passing Lane" was just PR spin in trying to inform an ignorant public of the work that ARTC was doing, but unfortunately the term seems to have gained some traction.
I think they are just long loops.
Lockspike
Well said Lockspike.
Spin spin and more spin. That's life today.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I thought "Passing Lane" was just PR spin in trying to inform an ignorant public of the work that ARTC was doing, but unfortunately the term seems to have gained some traction.
I think they are just long loops.
Lockspike
I don't think that Jo public would know what crossing even meant. Always makes me giggle when sitting in the loop at Elphinstone on the AM Down Swanners awaiting a cross and the Connie announces over the PA that we are waiting for a Melbourne bound service to pass us. Must be one of them Very Fast Trains!
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Do they define passing lane anywhere which is what ive heard the ~7km long crossing loops called in places, or is this a non technical term?
james.au
The 'Passing Lane' thing goes back to the heady days of the NSW Lease Agreement! From the draft ARTC North South Strategy in 2005, it states "Passing lanes, that is, sections of double track that permit trains to cross without stopping. Such passing lanes should ideally be around 10 km to 15 km or greater in length to permit trains to cross at full line speed."
It was subject to business case and funding. Reality turned out somewhat less ambitious, with no passing lanes Syd-Bri and those 7 km ones between Junee and Albury.
  WimbledonW Train Controller

Location: Sydney
@WimbledonW you seem to have a fascination with those SA-Track&Signal diagrams, having posted them here many times and helpful though they are occasionally, they are not operational documents issued by the network owners.

I see you've disagreed with @Fatty's post above. Why you've done that I cannot fathom, he is a qualified Driver on the ARTC network. I am a qualified Driver who has just done his ARTC safe-working re-certification less than 4 weeks ago and you have been provided with the ARTC glossary in addition.

The network owner lists them as either a "Grain Loop" or "Loop" in their relevant system maps and I would encourage you to not try to pass off as a statement of fact, information you receive from non-operational sources.
KRviator
The author of sa-trackandsignal is not your run-of-the-mill enthusiast, but is one of the team who manage the "Signalling and Infrastructure" column in the ARHSnsw "Digest" magazine. So there would be more verification of what is published than usual.

Sa-trackandsignal" has a disclaimer against relying on their un-official diagrams and other information.

As for the use of siding v loop, such things were introduced by the American-born SA Commissioner for Railways (W. A. Webb), like Train Orders, some of which have stood the test of time.
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
Moderators, can we please remove the non-related items to the Questions that you've always been too embarrassed to ask Thread?

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11373476.htm
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Moderators, can we please remove the non-related items to the Questions that you've always been too embarrassed to ask Thread?
Jack Le Lievre
@Jack Le Lievre unfortunately the current forum architecture doesn't allow us to merge threads or insert posts into another thread. We can move threads between forums, including a Mod-only forum to effectively 'delete' the thread, but that's it for the current software.

@WimbledonW I've edited your post back to the original version to remove the irrelevant fluff for this thread. Anything else you'd like to add, do it in the appropriate forum and/or thread. And no, that wasn't a request...Evil or Very Mad

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: