The corona virus COVID-19

 
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Exodus 21 is much more nuanced than Valvegear suggests.  If a female slave was mistreated she was to be released.  Relative to other Ancient Near-East cultures, slaves were treated better in Israel.

Anyway, by the New Testament the humanity and equality of slaves was explicit and revolutionary (Gal 3:28) in a Roman Empire that treated slaves horrendously.

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  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Our Bible says all life is sacred.
It also says that the firmament is supported by four pillars from the earth; that the earth was created before the sun; that I can sell my children into slavery; and that a flood covered all of the earth.
Valvegear
In year 7, after the class goody goody two shoes religious girl kept trying to force the bible down my neck multiple times after i said no, i said to her; god is not real and the bible is full of bullsh*t. She got upset, went and cried to the teacher, who told her she shouldnt be forcing her religeous views onto others. I am proud of what i did to this very day.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Not looking good for Melbourne:
Carnot
Only a miracle can get us to the targets by the 19th. Realistically, unless they decide to change the targets, I think Stage 4 will be going into November now.

It is really starting to get depressing now, especially when you consider that the follow on restrictions and their targets are also going to be pretty harsh anyway.

I don't think COVID-Normal will be a thing in Melbourne in 2020.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Exodus 21 is much more nuanced than Valvegear suggests.  If a female slave was mistreated she was to be released.  Relative to other Ancient Near-East cultures, slaves were treated better in Israel.

Anyway, by the New Testament the humanity and equality of slaves was explicit and revolutionary (Gal 3:28) in a Roman Empire that treated slaves horrendously.
Carnot
None of which alters the fact that the bible contains the tripe to which I referred. And, why quote Galatians? . . . written by one of the more misogynistic writers who ever put quill to papyrus.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
This accounting nilly-nally, saying that saving the lives of a few pathetic oldies is ruining our young generations...next thing somebody will be saying kill all the Downes Syndrome babies at birth, after all they clearly come out red on life's ledger. Why not kill the parents too, who'll get all depressed and bludge on young taxpayers. Nonsense,pure and simple. Our Bible says all life is sacred. END OF STORY
billybaxter
You had me right up until your mention of the bible - now I just think you're a nutcase.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
If a female slave was mistreated she was to be released.
Carnot
How does one 'correctly treat' a slave? Surely, by ANY reasonable definition a 'slave' is automatically mistreated. Why were none of the female 'slaves' 'cared' for by Anjeze Gonxhe Bojaxhiu released?

'The Bible' is shamefully contradictory, and those 'Christians' (on reflection that would be ALL Christians) that cherry pick their favourite verses to the exclusion of the less palatable ones do not impress me in the slightest.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Our Bible says all life is sacred.
It also says that the firmament is supported by four pillars from the earth; that the earth was created before the sun; that I can sell my children into slavery; and that a flood covered all of the earth.
The result of multiple works of fiction by creative authors, collected and compiled into one best selling BS story.
michaelgm
I have a feeling that 'best selling' is a bit of typical religious exaggeration, I think 'most given away' publication might be a more accurate title, at least they have the grace to not state 'most read', because I feel like the mere existence of the RCC shows that it's not that widely read.
  Carnot Minister for Railways
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Yes, an International modelling thingo was put out earlier today saying that we have potentially saved around 16,000 odd lives because of what we have done, I think it was modelled on U.K's experience with the virus, and they compared it to us, oh by the way, the majority of the world will be seeing exactly the same sort of numbers, maybe a lot worse.
I've no reason to doubt your info, but let's assume it is 100% reliable and correct.

Each of those "lives saved value" would be valued at 20.5 Billion (all 86 year-olds with 6 years to live) to 78.5 Billion (All 40-year-olds with 40 years to live). So we saved 20.5-78.5 Billion dollars of "lives", at a cost of 213 Billion dollars. That's like saying "I can make you $100,000 in a year, all you have to do is give me $300,000". No one in their right mind would fall for that, but that's what the Government has done to the Australian people, predominantly younger people, those who have lost jobs, have nosecure future and will be stuck paying the budget repair levies for decades to come.

No matter how you crunch the number's, from a financial point of view, and this is based on well recognised cost/benefit ratios that dictate things like acceptable risks of death, we didn't get 'value for money' with our COVID response.
So what's your response.

Let those 16,000 people die? Likely a lot more because in the process the hospital system would be over whelmed and others health and lives would be compromised. Also while yes most would be older, there will be many younger people die due to compromised immune system, some permanently some temporarily, people who would more than likely live and contribute to society into retirement.

Its a very ethical decision and basically an Executive Decision at PM / Premier level on the outcome of over whether 16,000 people are deemed eligible to see the year 2021 and beyond, regardless on how many of those may have actually seen say 2025. That's a bloody big decision to be placed at the hands of such a few people and as we are not in a time of war, they shouldn't need to make this.

Would this be "value for money"?

The point is Australia almost nailed it, like NZ without going as hard as NZ. Unfortunately there was a relapse and this relapse showed just how well we did the first time. Most of the country has since mid July operated close to normal. The financial hit was always going to come to some level, Sweden hasn't escaped this with similar economic impacts as its surrounding neighbors.
RTT_Rules
My preferred response would have been to continue the well-established cost v benefit analysis that has been in place for donkeys years.

  • Get the health system ready enough to cope with the expected influx of cases, if necessary by a short, sharp lockdown. We did that, nationwide.
  • Mandate mask wearing when outside
  • Mandate businesses & retail complexes provide hand sanitiser
  • Enforce a 50% capacity cap at sporting venues
  • Everything else - and I mean everything - continues as normal
  • If you are susceptible to it, you're welcome to take additional precautions.

What is so special about COVID that the value of life calculations, peoples human rights, their constitutional rights have been so spectacularly ignored?

Answer? Sweet F-all. It is no different than any other illness. It is just an illness, albeit a very contagious one.

When the Governments start banning tobacco products, which directly cause ~ 7,000 voluntary deaths in Australia every single year then I might start changing my view. Till then, not a bloody chance.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I wonder for how many people in Aged Care a Covid death was a blessed relief?
  doyle Assistant Commissioner

I suspect a covid death in an abandoned by staff nursing home would of been a horrible death
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I suspect a covid death in an abandoned by staff nursing home would of been a horrible death
doyle
That's not what I meant.
  doyle Assistant Commissioner

I'm aware
Probably for some maybe for most no
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
I can't imagine many people would choose to drown in their own phlegm, in a room with nobody but overworked medical staff dressed in all the protective paraphernalia, no visits or goodbyes from loved ones permitted. Even the argument that by going now rather than a bit later, they'd stop draining some sort of consolidated revenue that all youth, including maybe some in their own family would benefit from, would probably be of little consolation.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
FWIW:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-wrong-say-bible-pro-slavery/
Carnot
Wow! Just wow!

And Leviticus? Yeah, nah, we don't want to pick that cherry do we? That we have a description in the Bible for the 'rules' for when, where and how one can own slaves, smeg it even talks about bequeathment, slaves cannot even escape your slavery when YOU die.

Exdous? We can beat them 'male and female' (I have noted that you have not told me of any non abhorrent ways in which one correctly treats a slave yet...) 'with a rod' and so long as they survive a 'day or two' they are not to be avenged, for the slave is 'his money'... Excuse me?!

Read it fully, without the rose coloured glasses, you can do it - you will be disappointed.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I wonder for how many people in Aged Care a Covid death was a blessed relief?
YM-Mundrabilla
Not a nice way to go not being able to breathe any longer but yeah I know what you're getting at; I think there were a lot of people in homes extremely upset at not being able to see their families any longer.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Not looking good for Melbourne:
Only a miracle can get us to the targets by the 19th. Realistically, unless they decide to change the targets, I think Stage 4 will be going into November now.

It is really starting to get depressing now, especially when you consider that the follow on restrictions and their targets are also going to be pretty harsh anyway.

I don't think COVID-Normal will be a thing in Melbourne in 2020.
Mr. Lane
Nothing to see here.

Remember, the original target was October 26th. It was only due to the trend at the time that an assumption was made that easing of restrictions might have been made possible on the 19th. If it gets pushed back to the 26th again, then nothing has really changed from the original roadmap.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
My preferred response would have been to continue the well-established cost v benefit analysis that has been in place for donkeys years.

  • Get the health system ready enough to cope with the expected influx of cases, if necessary by a short, sharp lockdown. We did that, nationwide.
  • Mandate mask wearing when outside
  • Mandate businesses & retail complexes provide hand sanitiser
  • Enforce a 50% capacity cap at sporting venues
  • Everything else - and I mean everything - continues as normal
  • If you are susceptible to it, you're welcome to take additional precautions.

What is so special about COVID that the value of life calculations, peoples human rights, their constitutional rights have been so spectacularly ignored?

Answer? Sweet F-all. It is no different than any other illness. It is just an illness, albeit a very contagious one.

When the Governments start banning tobacco products, which directly cause ~ 7,000 voluntary deaths in Australia every single year then I might start changing my view. Till then, not a bloody chance.
KRviator
To be fair, I tend to agree with most and yes you are 100% right, the govt has been milking smokers for decades, yet knowing that it will kill them and not a pretty way either. I'm looking at my chain smoking dad as an example and mum only marginally better off, both in mid 70's. I can now see very clearly the different smoking has on people's health when aged and my parents are doing pretty well to date. Smoking could easily be banned outright.

The big difference between Australia's approach and the UAE is the lack of CV-19 testing via the PCR and much faster and alot cheaper DPI methods and also lack of forced testing. Hell here if they suspect there is a problem in your building, they door knock, 100% compulsory, kids too.

As for the "rights", alot of this is BS and in reality most people don't even know what their rights are. But when managing a crisis sometimes some things need to be pushed aside to aid a faster recovery.

Also, the issue with the health system is the inability to get the ICU extra to the level that was potentially needed if it got out of hand. When you hear we have just 2000 ICU beds nation wide because thats all we normally need, but if we had gone Sweden, those beds would have been full a few times over, makes you think a bit.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I wonder for how many people in Aged Care a Covid death was a blessed relief?
YM-Mundrabilla
For 2 out of 4 grandparents, probably true. Fortunately while my last grandparent died a few months back in Mel, she wasn't in a home and only in hospital for a few days prior to leaving us at the age of 103. Generally pretty good up until the last year or so when she lost the ability to read and she wanted to go within 6mth of passing 100.  

Her husband spent 5 years in a home with dementure and a few other health problems before going around age 93 in 2010. He was good and still driving (safely), then all went down hill in the space of a few months in late 80's. I remember walking around the very very large yard they had in Killara overlooking the National park on 2 side and he said I just need to do this little bit and I'm done, 50 years of work. Lots of mowing but he would mow for 20min, then watch TV for 30min, then mow. I said to wife on leaving he must be not feeling well as never heard him say "its nearly finished", a few months later, mentally gone. I know myself I would want someone to cough on me if I end up like that and my dad has told be as such for him.
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
I have watched both of my parents spend their last years (mother) and months (father) in a nursing home, it was not pleasant for either, and it was a relief when each went.

Early in her stay Mum made the comment on her 85th birthday that "I have had 85 years, it's time to go".  She suffered another 5 years of it!

My father was more determined and pragmatic and to this day I believe he starved himself to death in that place because he realised it was the only exit strategy available to him.  I came to that assessment independently but on "comparing notes" with my sister and brother in law found that so had they.

Am I correct?  Nobody really knows, but I would take a lot of convincing otherwise.  Actually you could not convince me otherwise.

What I do know is that neither of them wanted to be there any longer than they could avoid.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Stubborn numbers still:
  doyle Assistant Commissioner

Bloody ABC cutting Dan off at midday at mid question/answer
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
Early in her stay Mum made the comment on her 85th birthday that "I have had 85 years, it's time to go".  She suffered another 5 years of it!
7334
My dear Mum, now 90 and still in her own home, watched both her parents suffer in a nursing home before they died. She herself (always the realist) has said "I should have died when I was 75, I would have missed two hip replacements, eye surgery, heart surgery..." I know where she's coming from, but I dread the day she dies, apart from anything else, she's the only one left in the family who knows anything about the family history. It's all in her head (she still has all her marbles). I've tried to build a bit of a knowledge base, but I'm not very good at it, and it gets a bit like Chinese whispers... I wish I could download the contents of her brain!
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Bloody ABC cutting Dan off at midday at mid question/answer
doyle
Happens all the time. Some of the best questions come at the end.

Watch on YouTube instead.

cheers
John
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Not looking good for Melbourne:
Only a miracle can get us to the targets by the 19th. Realistically, unless they decide to change the targets, I think Stage 4 will be going into November now.

It is really starting to get depressing now, especially when you consider that the follow on restrictions and their targets are also going to be pretty harsh anyway.

I don't think COVID-Normal will be a thing in Melbourne in 2020.
Nothing to see here.

Remember, the original target was October 26th. It was only due to the trend at the time that an assumption was made that easing of restrictions might have been made possible on the 19th. If it gets pushed back to the 26th again, then nothing has really changed from the original roadmap.
DirtyBallast
Yeah but even October 26 is looking shaky at this point if they stick to the current targets.

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