Metro Rail Tunnel - Building Thread

 
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
A new milestone reached today according to Andrew Lund but no further details?

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  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

A new milestone reached today according to Andrew Lund but no further details?

NSWGR8022
Joan and Meg are now both at Parkville, and Millie is at South Yarra Portal, which this looks more like it is.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Here you go guys:

  John E Locomotive Driver

There was a great Facebook live session this afternoon with Paul Thomas, who is head of tunneling and stations for the Metro project. This is on the Melbourne Metro Facebook page if you're curious.

It was very interesting hearing him talk about all the different ground conditions that Metro goes through and why different methods were used for TBM breakthroughs, including flooding the entrance at the western portal.

It puts into perspective how challenging and varied tunneling can be in Melbourne!
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
TBM Alice has arrived at South Yarra to complete the eastern tunnels from ANZAC. She's now being disassembled to join Millie back at ANZAC for the next leg to Town Hall. Metro are saying Millie will start that leg late this year.

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/family-celebrates-tbm-alices-metro-tunnel-breakthrough

There's nothing to confirm this yet but Joan was supposed to be on her way from Parkville towards State Library now based on an update that I can longer locate pn their website; 'late' September was the scheduled launch date.

The Facebook session that John E. referred to indicated that the outer shell of the shields of all four TBM will become part of the permanent structure around Town Hall but that the rest of the machines will be recovered for reuse, potentially in other TBMs; maybe ones for the SRL or MM2?

Neil
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
TBM Alice has arrived at South Yarra to complete the eastern tunnels from ANZAC. She's now being disassembled to join Millie back at ANZAC for the next leg to Town Hall. Metro are saying Millie will start that leg late this year.

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/family-celebrates-tbm-alices-metro-tunnel-breakthrough

There's nothing to confirm this yet but Joan was supposed to be on her way from Parkville towards State Library now based on an update that I can longer locate pn their website; 'late' September was the scheduled launch date.

The Facebook session that John E. referred to indicated that the outer shell of the shields of all four TBM will become part of the permanent structure around Town Hall but that the rest of the machines will be recovered for reuse, potentially in other TBMs; maybe ones for the SRL or MM2?

Neil
ngarner
Given the line they keep trotting out is that construction on SRL will start "late 2022" it seems like they always planned for some sort of rollover from MM1 into SRL.  Whether that is just personnel or TBMs as well remains to be seen.
  chomper Junior Train Controller
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Remind me again, why do we even bother to have PPP’s for these mega-projects? Why not simply scope and build entirely within house? Then you’ll ge honest cost estimates from officials who’ll lose their jobs if they’re wrong — rather than this rent-seeking price-gouging that serves only to waste even more money, whilst even more rentseeking lawyers, suck up valuable public resources battling it out in court, and contributing nothing to the community writ-large, not reducing congestion, nor contributing to the wider body of case law about how to resolve contract disputes.

Ever since these PPP’s have become a thing, there’s been an explosion of private lawyers, cost consultants, and private equity and capital firms all seeking to get a government hand out, 10 x worse than any JobSeeker recipient has ever gotten
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Remind me again, why do we even bother to have PPP’s for these mega-projects? Why not simply scope and build entirely within house? Then you’ll ge honest cost estimates from officials who’ll lose their jobs if they’re wrong — rather than this rent-seeking price-gouging that serves only to waste even more money, whilst even more rentseeking lawyers, suck up valuable public resources battling it out in court, and contributing nothing to the community writ-large, not reducing congestion, nor contributing to the wider body of case law about how to resolve contract disputes.

Ever since these PPP’s have become a thing, there’s been an explosion of private lawyers, cost consultants, and private equity and capital firms all seeking to get a government hand out, 10 x worse than any JobSeeker recipient has ever gotten
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Remind me again, why do we even bother to have PPP’s for these mega-projects? Why not simply scope and build entirely within house? Then you’ll ge honest cost estimates from officials who’ll lose their jobs if they’re wrong — rather than this rent-seeking price-gouging that serves only to waste even more money, whilst even more rentseeking lawyers, suck up valuable public resources battling it out in court, and contributing nothing to the community writ-large, not reducing congestion, nor contributing to the wider body of case law about how to resolve contract disputes. Ever since these PPP’s have become a thing, there’s been an explosion of private lawyers, cost consultants, and private equity and capital firms all seeking to get a government hand out, 10 x worse than any JobSeeker recipient has ever gotten
ElliotProvis

Couldn't agree more. To me the economic point of them must have been to try to improve efficiency by engaging with the private sector. I'm not sure how that is meant to happen when businesses can and consistently do just ask for more money whenever they want more profit. It's not them doing things efficiently which makes them profits. It's them ripping us off. The government should build up its own team of staff with expertise. There are certainly enough projects going around!
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

The same reason we have franchise operators for our Trains, Trams and Busses.

It gives the government an external party they can blame when smeg hits the fan, and it allows them to scale up/down expensive roles instead of having too many or too few on the books. Those companies can move there people around projects much more easily than government could when work dries up (and bring extra people in when work ramps up). There is genuine cost savings there for the Gov (ie not paying overtime or paying people to chew fat)
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Remind me again, why do we even bother to have PPP’s for these mega-projects? Why not simply scope and build entirely within house? Then you’ll ge honest cost estimates from officials who’ll lose their jobs if they’re wrong — rather than this rent-seeking price-gouging that serves only to waste even more money, whilst even more rentseeking lawyers, suck up valuable public resources battling it out in court, and contributing nothing to the community writ-large, not reducing congestion, nor contributing to the wider body of case law about how to resolve contract disputes.

Ever since these PPP’s have become a thing, there’s been an explosion of private lawyers, cost consultants, and private equity and capital firms all seeking to get a government hand out, 10 x worse than any JobSeeker recipient has ever gotten
ElliotProvis

There are two points I can make about PPP's, they are criminal enterprises even when done to the letter. The form of the PPP that has been in use by the government are being seen as corruption by the IBAC and why they are still investigating every PPP since (and including) Citylink. Many palms were greased (and continue to be greased) to make these partnerships happen. Despite being sold to the public as a way for the private sector to wear the cost of building infrastructure, every single PPP arrangement in Victoria has the government wearing all cost and responsibility, some of them moreso than others. The PPP associated with the Metro tunnel is a particularly bad one as it is riddled with garbage that leaves the government holding the bag if the partner cocks up in any way shape or form. The fact that they stumped up the cash is proof positive.

To your second paragraph, this I contend is by design.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
I'm not sure what happened but TBM Joan has only just launched towards State Library, contrary to earlier information expecting a re-launch late last month

https://twitter.com/metrotunnelvic

Neil
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
I'm not sure what happened but TBM Joan has only just launched towards State Library, contrary to earlier information expecting a re-launch late last month

https://twitter.com/metrotunnelvic

Neil
ngarner
Depends on your definition of "earlier information". Was originally supposed to early December.

Good to see Joan is on her way. Maybe a happy new year at the Library.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
I'm not sure what happened but TBM Joan has only just launched towards State Library, contrary to earlier information expecting a re-launch late last month

https://twitter.com/metrotunnelvic

Neil
ngarner
Depends on your definition of "earlier information". Was originally supposed to early December.

Good to see Joan is on her way. Maybe a happy new year at the Library.
"justarider"



You're not thinking of Millie, are you? The Metro website last month had Joan as launching in late September. Millie is being re-assembled as ANZAC to re-launch 'late' this year according to the same website.

Neil
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
I'm not sure what happened but TBM Joan has only just launched towards State Library, contrary to earlier information expecting a re-launch late last month

https://twitter.com/metrotunnelvic

Neil
Depends on your definition of "earlier information". Was originally supposed to early December.

Good to see Joan is on her way. Maybe a happy new year at the Library.
You're not thinking of Millie, are you? The Metro website last month had Joan as launching in late September. Millie is being re-assembled as ANZAC to re-launch 'late' this year according to the same website.

Neil
ngarner
I do mean Joan. The time table keeps shifting.

Joan was originally expected to arrive at Parkville in mid October (approx 140 days after the 25 May launch), for re-launch December.
Arrived 27 August. Re-launch 20 October. The early arrival may have made things at Parkville tricky for a quicker re-launch

Now 4-6 weeks ahead of schedule.
Hope they keep up the good rate. Provided that the Library station are ready by then.

cheers
John
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
I'm not sure what happened but TBM Joan has only just launched towards State Library, contrary to earlier information expecting a re-launch late last month

https://twitter.com/metrotunnelvic

Neil
Depends on your definition of "earlier information". Was originally supposed to early December.

Good to see Joan is on her way. Maybe a happy new year at the Library.
You're not thinking of Millie, are you? The Metro website last month had Joan as launching in late September. Millie is being re-assembled as ANZAC to re-launch 'late' this year according to the same website.

Neil
I do mean Joan. The time table keeps shifting.

Joan was originally expected to arrive at Parkville in mid October (approx 140 days after the 25 May launch), for re-launch December.
Arrived 27 August. Re-launch 20 October. The early arrival may have made things at Parkville tricky for a quicker re-launch

Now 4-6 weeks ahead of schedule.
Hope they keep up the good rate. Provided that the Library station are ready by then.

cheers
John
justarider

All good, you're keeping better tabs on what's going on than I am

Neil
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Looking at a project like Crossrail in London, the physical tunnels are the "easy" part of the construction process - the real dangers to delays come from station and services fit outs and things like signalling implementation.

Reportedly (through the VicSig facebook group), the overall scope of the High Capacity Signalling has been reduced to cover a shorter section of the route. If that decision is already being made now, it already indicates that the trials on the Mernda Line have shown implementation needs a lot more work than first thought.

Hopefully though with tunnel construction being well ahead of schedule, the tunnelling equipment and workforce will be able to get out of the way earlier and give the station fit out teams and equipment more time and space to get things done.
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
Looking at a project like Crossrail in London, the physical tunnels are the "easy" part of the construction process - the real dangers to delays come from station and services fit outs and things like signalling implementation.

Reportedly (through the VicSig facebook group), the overall scope of the High Capacity Signalling has been reduced to cover a shorter section of the route. If that decision is already being made now, it already indicates that the trials on the Mernda Line have shown implementation needs a lot more work than first thought.

Hopefully though with tunnel construction being well ahead of schedule, the tunnelling equipment and workforce will be able to get out of the way earlier and give the station fit out teams and equipment more time and space to get things done.
TOQ-1
Hah, I was literally about to post the exact same thing. Digging tunnels? Pff, easy.

Giant subterranean station fitouts, new signalling systems and new rolling stock on new track? That is where a project can hit the skids.

At least they have been trying to de-risk by giving the signalling a run up near Mernda and getting hours into the Hands but tying it all together is a huge logistical task that is really only just starting.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
TBM 'Meg' has been launched towards State Library so both tunnels from Parkville to that station are now underway. 'Joan' has dug 150m of the 1km distance

Meg launch

Neil
  Upven Train Controller

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/station-redesigns-drove-multibillion-dollar-metro-tunnel-blowout-20201112-p56dva.html

"The cost of the State Library and Town Hall stations were together tipped to rise by 98 per cent from $907 million to $1.8 billion – an increase of $893 million.
The budget for the remaining stations – Arden, Parkville and Domain – were said to have increased by 58 per cent from $828 million to $1.3 billion."

  Carnot Minister for Railways

Another day, another rort?

  Yappo Locomotive Fireman

Another day, another rort?

Carnot
Is it a rort if it didn't work? Attempted rort.....?

Rather unsurprising given that every construction consortium tries to squeeze more from the public purse with these large projects, but this is a blatant and crass attempt. They should all be banned from future bids.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
With the Vic Auditor-General not convinced of the value for money of these PPP I'm increasingly of the opinion that, as someone else has already written, that state governments should drop PPP agreements and do it themselves, even if that means they have to 'carry the can' when things go south.

Neil
  Djebel Train Controller

With the Vic Auditor-General not convinced of the value for money of these PPP I'm increasingly of the opinion that, as someone else has already written, that state governments should drop PPP agreements and do it themselves, even if that means they have to 'carry the can' when things go south.

Neil
ngarner
As opposed to the Westgate tunnel project, when they....ummm....what did they do there again Rolling Eyes?

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