Baxter Electrification

 
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
To my most darling of posters, @RTT_Rules. I have limited interest in debating with you, because you simply like to bring in irrelevant distractions from the original argument, but I will humour you just a little longer.

Might be worth checking your data.
The former NSW ALP govt cancelled the 2nd part of the ECRL early on in the contract before I think most of the cost over runs came in. The same govt who started a number of rail projects and never completed. The current NSW govt (8 years in power) has built more commuter rail route km including tram and Metro than the rest of the country combined in the last 20 years. 100% of which was funded internally.
RTT_Rules

'before I think' — used in common parlance when somebody is pretty sure that they are right, but don't want to embarrass themselves by saying they are certain they are right, because they do not have evidence to support their proposition. So instead, they drop this line one in.

Ironic, considering you told me "check... your data".

Onto the substance of your argument.
I actually don't care what the NSW ALP Gov of 1995-2011 did or did not do.
Please, let me repeat this for absolute clarity: None of it matters to me.
It's all trifle.

You have not once been able to provide to me a reasonable answer as to why Victorians shouldn't be angry as to the lack of funding coming from the Commonwealth.

But the fault is on my end, I made the mistake of indulging your peripheral disagreement about RRL funding. I should have known that you wouldn't be able to come up with a valid reason, and so instead introduced a completely moot point.

Ah, yet another example of an irrelevant distraction that is not to even be contended with:

The current NSW LNP govt 100% internally funded the current NWRL Metro and the city to SW Metro. There is no fed money involved.

Gillard offered $2B to build the EPRL which was almost 100% of the expected project cost as a vote buying election stunt to help boost support in western Sydney for the upcoming 2010 Fed election. The money was never accepted by the last NSW ALP Premier KK nor the current NSW LNP govt as the project was not the most needy for the city. The EPRL is not even in the vision of the future rail projects. The NSW govt tried to get the funds diverted to the NWRL Metro, but the Fed (ALP I think) govt refused. Clearly the then Feds were only after potential ALP votes and couldn't give a rats about the more affluent NW region of Sydney that was in far more desperate need of a commuter rail that's been on and off for near 30 years.

To the best of my knowledge, the only money NSW has accepted for commuter rail is for the line to the new airport which I think is similar or less than Vic is getting for the bloody expensive airport railway that costs more than the Sydney, Brisbane, Perth and if Adelaide was to get one airport lines combined.
RTT_Rules

Why not to be contended with? Ah — because (and correct me if I am wrong), but the point that I made (which you're still unable to rebut) was:

The Federal LNP is underfunding Victoria on infrastructure, yet again.

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for NSW in 2020-21:
$2.7 Billion

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for Vic in 2020-21:
$1.1 Billion

Now, I might be stupid, but to my knowledge 2.7  has always been a larger number than 1.1.
Am I wrong? Is there some new kind of mathematics I need to learn?

I do not care about the RRL;
I do not care about what the NSW LNP is doing in government;
I do not care about some armchair COVID-demographers predictions on Melbourne's population growth are;
I do not care about the Geelong Fast Rail;
I do not care that (apparently, unbeknownst to literally everybody in Australia except you) there was someone scheming to start off the second-wave in Victoria;
I do not care that QLD was uninsured and the whole of Australia had to bail it out;
I do not care about the exports and imports of Victoria,
I do not even care about monoculture exports from QLD either.

If you cannot come up with a coherent and cogent response to my very basic question, then you have lost.
Either learn how to debate properly, or don't bother.

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland


That's really just a guess, no one's got any hard data that the population trend will change.
Adogs
Time will tell

There Is little trust of the Andrews Government In the Victorian business world.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
And here I was thinking this was a thread about the Frankston and Stony Point Rail lines, not partisan politics.

I stay out of 'The Lounge' for a reason and that is where the last page and a half of this thread belongs.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
The Federal LNP is underfunding Victoria on infrastructure, yet again.

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for NSW in 2020-21:
$2.7 Billion

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for Vic in 2020-21:
$1.1 Billion

Now, I might be stupid, but to my knowledge 2.7  has always been a larger number than 1.1.
Am I wrong? Is there some new kind of mathematics I need to learn?
ElliotProvis

Hi Elliot, I don't think anyone can dispute that the Federal Govt has spent more infrastructure funds in NSW than Victoria in recent years.  However, I think that the reasons are likely to go deeper than the purely political reason that the NSW Govt is of the same colour as the Federal Govt whereas in Victoria the Govt is of another persuasion.  If that were the case there would be a similar pattern across all the states.

One of the reasons I have heard in the past is that NSW submits more business cases to Infrastructure Australia than Victoria and hence the Federal Government has a better understanding of infrastructure needs in that state.

I agree with you that many of the recent Federal Government infrastructure commitments in Victoria have been of a political nature (eg carparks at railway stations, level crossing removals in Kooyong, fast rail to Geelong, Baxter electrification etc).  But some of this also has to do with the antagonistic nature of our Premier who loves nothing more than to pick a fight with the feds.

Ross
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??

But some of this also has to do with the antagonistic nature of our Premier who loves nothing more than to pick a fight with the feds.

Ross
Rossco T
methinks "agnostic" is a better description. Past caring what the Feds think.

With all the LNP bluff and bluster since the last Fed election, and especially during Covid,
it's just too easy to push Scotty and Josh's buttons to get a frothy rise.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

I do not care about anything that deviates from my one eyed agenda.
ElliotProvis
I agree with another poster, if you want to continue , lets pick it up in the lounge as it would seem any evidence you don't like you don't care about.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The Federal LNP is underfunding Victoria on infrastructure, yet again.

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for NSW in 2020-21:
$2.7 Billion

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for Vic in 2020-21:
$1.1 Billion

Now, I might be stupid, but to my knowledge 2.7  has always been a larger number than 1.1.
Am I wrong? Is there some new kind of mathematics I need to learn?

Hi Elliot, I don't think anyone can dispute that the Federal Govt has spent more infrastructure funds in NSW than Victoria in recent years.  However, I think that the reasons are likely to go deeper than the purely political reason that the NSW Govt is of the same colour as the Federal Govt whereas in Victoria the Govt is of another persuasion.  If that were the case there would be a similar pattern across all the states.

One of the reasons I have heard in the past is that NSW submits more business cases to Infrastructure Australia than Victoria and hence the Federal Government has a better understanding of infrastructure needs in that state.

I agree with you that many of the recent Federal Government infrastructure commitments in Victoria have been of a political nature (eg carparks at railway stations, level crossing removals in Kooyong, fast rail to Geelong, Baxter electrification etc).  But some of this also has to do with the antagonistic nature of our Premier who loves nothing more than to pick a fight with the feds.

Ross
Rossco T
It also doesn't hurt that the chairperson of the Greater Sydney Commission from 2015 to 2020 was Lucy Turnbull, who naturally had the ear of Malcolm. Not implying there was anything improper - but a Prime Minister and Treasurer both from NSW, with naturally strong connections to the greater Sydney Area naturally leads to an over-investment in that area compared to others.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The Federal LNP is underfunding Victoria on infrastructure, yet again.

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for NSW in 2020-21:
$2.7 Billion

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for Vic in 2020-21:
$1.1 Billion

Now, I might be stupid, but to my knowledge 2.7  has always been a larger number than 1.1.
Am I wrong? Is there some new kind of mathematics I need to learn?

Hi Elliot, I don't think anyone can dispute that the Federal Govt has spent more infrastructure funds in NSW than Victoria in recent years.  However, I think that the reasons are likely to go deeper than the purely political reason that the NSW Govt is of the same colour as the Federal Govt whereas in Victoria the Govt is of another persuasion.  If that were the case there would be a similar pattern across all the states.

One of the reasons I have heard in the past is that NSW submits more business cases to Infrastructure Australia than Victoria and hence the Federal Government has a better understanding of infrastructure needs in that state.

I agree with you that many of the recent Federal Government infrastructure commitments in Victoria have been of a political nature (eg carparks at railway stations, level crossing removals in Kooyong, fast rail to Geelong, Baxter electrification etc).  But some of this also has to do with the antagonistic nature of our Premier who loves nothing more than to pick a fight with the feds.

Ross
Rossco T
It is indeed a correct statement to say that Victoria does not submit many bids as professional Business Cases via the defined Infrastructure Australia process, and when they do IA have made it quite clear that many of Victoria's Business Cases are not up to scratch of quality of other States and leave a lot to be desired.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I see a-lot of discussion lately about the Baxter line recently, it's quite amazing actually, I bet the construction has started, oh wait...
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Federal LNP is underfunding Victoria on infrastructure, yet again.

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for NSW in 2020-21:
$2.7 Billion

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for Vic in 2020-21:
$1.1 Billion

Now, I might be stupid, but to my knowledge 2.7  has always been a larger number than 1.1.
Am I wrong? Is there some new kind of mathematics I need to learn?

Hi Elliot, I don't think anyone can dispute that the Federal Govt has spent more infrastructure funds in NSW than Victoria in recent years.  However, I think that the reasons are likely to go deeper than the purely political reason that the NSW Govt is of the same colour as the Federal Govt whereas in Victoria the Govt is of another persuasion.  If that were the case there would be a similar pattern across all the states.

One of the reasons I have heard in the past is that NSW submits more business cases to Infrastructure Australia than Victoria and hence the Federal Government has a better understanding of infrastructure needs in that state.

I agree with you that many of the recent Federal Government infrastructure commitments in Victoria have been of a political nature (eg carparks at railway stations, level crossing removals in Kooyong, fast rail to Geelong, Baxter electrification etc).  But some of this also has to do with the antagonistic nature of our Premier who loves nothing more than to pick a fight with the feds.

Ross
It also doesn't hurt that the chairperson of the Greater Sydney Commission from 2015 to 2020 was Lucy Turnbull, who naturally had the ear of Malcolm. Not implying there was anything improper - but a Prime Minister and Treasurer both from NSW, with naturally strong connections to the greater Sydney Area naturally leads to an over-investment in that area compared to others.
TOQ-1
I haven't seen a breakdown of that money, but if this includes the 2nd Airport then are there really any surprises. The feds are bankrolling the 2nd airport and part of the cost for the connecting infrastructure. Mel got its Fed funded 2nd airport 50 years ago.

In addition does this money include funding towards the Inland Railway, roughly 1/3 of the $10B spending is in NSW, 2/3 in Qld. Previous spending for the Inland in Vic included the "upgrade" and standard gauge conversion of the NE corridor and Wang by-pass.

But also agree with comments above that the NSW govt seems to work better with the Feds and there seems to be issues with half ars_ed spending in Vic such as the disastrous NW line standardization and upgrade project and even in the past new SG sleepers sitting aside the interstate for years as they were paid for by the Feds but the Vics failed to fund their installation.
  Upven Junior Train Controller

The Federal LNP is underfunding Victoria on infrastructure, yet again.

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for NSW in 2020-21:
$2.7 Billion

Federal Budget spend on infrastructure for Vic in 2020-21:
$1.1 Billion

Now, I might be stupid, but to my knowledge 2.7  has always been a larger number than 1.1.
Am I wrong? Is there some new kind of mathematics I need to learn?

Hi Elliot, I don't think anyone can dispute that the Federal Govt has spent more infrastructure funds in NSW than Victoria in recent years.  However, I think that the reasons are likely to go deeper than the purely political reason that the NSW Govt is of the same colour as the Federal Govt whereas in Victoria the Govt is of another persuasion.  If that were the case there would be a similar pattern across all the states.

One of the reasons I have heard in the past is that NSW submits more business cases to Infrastructure Australia than Victoria and hence the Federal Government has a better understanding of infrastructure needs in that state.

I agree with you that many of the recent Federal Government infrastructure commitments in Victoria have been of a political nature (eg carparks at railway stations, level crossing removals in Kooyong, fast rail to Geelong, Baxter electrification etc).  But some of this also has to do with the antagonistic nature of our Premier who loves nothing more than to pick a fight with the feds.

Ross
It also doesn't hurt that the chairperson of the Greater Sydney Commission from 2015 to 2020 was Lucy Turnbull, who naturally had the ear of Malcolm. Not implying there was anything improper - but a Prime Minister and Treasurer both from NSW, with naturally strong connections to the greater Sydney Area naturally leads to an over-investment in that area compared to others.
TOQ-1

Or Sydney is just more organised and Melbourne (without a body representing the city itself) is a dysfunctional mess.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller


That's really just a guess, no one's got any hard data that the population trend will change.
Time will tell

There Is little trust of the Andrews Government In the Victorian business world.
Nightfire


That isn't really what will matter for population growth here.  The Victorian business world didn't like him before Covid either and it didn't change much.  A couple of thousand disgruntled lockdown refugees sounds like a lot on a Ch7 soundbite but in real terms they're a drop in the ocean that doesn't tell us anything about long term trends.

What *will* matter is that a combination of Covid stopping international travel and the federal government taking the axe to universities will put a huge dent in Victoria's biggest export industry - international education.

I'd hazard a guess that most Victorians don't realise how much of the state's economy this makes up.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

And here I was thinking this was a thread about the Frankston and Stony Point Rail lines, not partisan politics.

I stay out of 'The Lounge' for a reason and that is where the last page and a half of this thread belongs.
Gman_86

The reality of it is that the Baxter line is entirely a political football.  Every election it's the target of promises and pork barreling, yet probably won't be built for years no matter who's in power.  

Can't really talk about it without it coming back to that.
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
And here I was thinking this was a thread about the Frankston and Stony Point Rail lines, not partisan politics.

I stay out of 'The Lounge' for a reason and that is where the last page and a half of this thread belongs.

The reality of it is that the Baxter line is entirely a political football.  Every election it's the target of promises and pork barreling, yet probably won't be built for years no matter who's in power.  

Can't really talk about it without it coming back to that.
Adogs
And if the project is commenced what happens to the line beyond Baxter to Stony Point ?
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
And here I was thinking this was a thread about the Frankston and Stony Point Rail lines, not partisan politics.

I stay out of 'The Lounge' for a reason and that is where the last page and a half of this thread belongs.

The reality of it is that the Baxter line is entirely a political football.  Every election it's the target of promises and pork barreling, yet probably won't be built for years no matter who's in power.  

Can't really talk about it without it coming back to that.
And if the project is commenced what happens to the line beyond Baxter to Stony Point ?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
And here I was thinking this was a thread about the Frankston and Stony Point Rail lines, not partisan politics.

I stay out of 'The Lounge' for a reason and that is where the last page and a half of this thread belongs.

The reality of it is that the Baxter line is entirely a political football.  Every election it's the target of promises and pork barreling, yet probably won't be built for years no matter who's in power.  

Can't really talk about it without it coming back to that.
And if the project is commenced what happens to the line beyond Baxter to Stony Point ?
Crossover
I think that would keep its shuttle service (but maybe slightly more frequent due to the shorter distance).
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

And here I was thinking this was a thread about the Frankston and Stony Point Rail lines, not partisan politics.

I stay out of 'The Lounge' for a reason and that is where the last page and a half of this thread belongs.

The reality of it is that the Baxter line is entirely a political football.  Every election it's the target of promises and pork barreling, yet probably won't be built for years no matter who's in power.  

Can't really talk about it without it coming back to that.
And if the project is commenced what happens to the line beyond Baxter to Stony Point ?
Crossover
Still stays as  Sprinters but running Baxter - Stony Point.  As that distance is shorter than the existing Frankston - Stony Point then the same set can run an increased frequency of service connecting with the extended sparks at Baxter..
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Preliminary Business case is now public https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/rail/publications/files/frankston-to-baxter-preliminary-business-case.pdf
Basically found to be not economical viable. The preferred option is adding passing loops to the Stony Point line and increase services there.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Preliminary Business case is now public https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/rail/publications/files/frankston-to-baxter-preliminary-business-case.pdf
Basically found to be not economical viable. The preferred option is adding passing loops to the Stony Point line and increase services there.
True Believers

Further info https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/frankston-to-baxter-rail-upgrade-business-case-released

Have not read it yet but the electrification is not viable or the duplication?
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Bit of both, apparently.  From the report:  "All investment options will provide public transport benefits for Frankston and the Mornington Peninsula. However, the economic costs of all options will exceed the benefits, in particular for the electrification options which require a large capital investment of stabling, stations, level crossing removals, and signalling works."

What is the more important consideration - "public transport benefits", or "economic costs"?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Yeah it only work economically if they tried to develop around the stations, but this is unlikely due to the location it is in.

Something must have to improve at some point down the line, but there are definitely more priorities elsewhere which needs addressing first.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
The funny thing is when you read the quotes from the various Federal Government MPs referenced in the Mirage News article it is as though the Business Case provides a glowing endorsement of the project when in fact it doesn't!  It is almost as if the MPs have not read the document.

Federal Minister for Population, Cities and Urban Infrastructure Alan Tudge said the Morrison Government have led from the beginning on the Frankston to Baxter Rail Upgrade.

“We want to see this project underway for the people of Frankston and right across the Peninsula,” Mr Tudge said. “Delivering a metro rail line extension south of Frankston will help open up the whole of the Mornington Peninsula, meaning locals can get to work and get home sooner and safer.”

Federal Member for Flinders Greg Hunt said the business case showed how the electrification and duplication of the Frankston Line further south could benefit the whole of the Mornington Peninsula. “There is strong support for the project throughout the Peninsula community,” Mr Hunt said.

“When it comes to extending Metro train service beyond Frankston, the Committee for Greater Frankston agree, the Committee for the Mornington Peninsula agree, the Mornington Peninsula Shire agree, Frankston City Council agree, the Victorian Opposition agree and the Federal Liberal and Labor Parties agree of the merits of this expansion.”
Mirage News

Ross
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
In all seriousness how could anyone continue to run diesel trains in the entire section. The business case was written to fit with an objective of moving stabling out of the Frankston yard. This was not to the advantage of commuters.

The business case should be for the entire electrification of the line with passing loops as indicated. That business case would be the one to go with and would provide more benefits.

Again commuers have been dudded.

The cost of over a billion $ is just completely laughable. Does the Victorian government think we are stupid ?

What is the length of the link to Baxter from Frankston ?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Includes all of the grade separations and a large stabling yard, also would need costs to relocate the freight and passenger trains on the stony point line too, the costs would start to add up. Mernda line about the same length was about 600 million (very little disruption to existing network and small stabling yard), and Cranbourne line duplication around 700 million (with grade separations in comes about the cost of 1-2 billion dollars).
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Includes all of the grade separations and a large stabling yard, also would need costs to relocate the freight and passenger trains on the stony point line too, the costs would start to add up. Mernda line about the same length was about 600 million (very little disruption to existing network and small stabling yard), and Cranbourne line duplication around 700 million (with grade separations in comes about the cost of 1-2 billion dollars).
True Believers

If you consider the above post and this post then why would anyone want to invest $1.5b in the proposed upgrades which will never deliver more customers anyhow?  The issue is clear to me, rail services are so bad on that line people are voting with their cars and not using it as much as they should or rather could.

The business case needs to forget about grade separation for a semi rural area and electrify to Stony Point and then with key loops at stations (like those in other single track sections) increase frequencies.  No wonder the place is a mess in PTV.

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