Metro Rail Tunnel - Building Thread

 
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

With the Vic Auditor-General not convinced of the value for money of these PPP I'm increasingly of the opinion that, as someone else has already written, that state governments should drop PPP agreements and do it themselves, even if that means they have to 'carry the can' when things go south.

Neil
ngarner

By dropping the PPP arrangements, the state government would have to fund the whole project and if they encounter issues would need to pay more, wouldn't that just defeat the purpose trying to encourage the competition process during the tendering of the PPP arrangement. That's so they can get the project delivered on a reasonable budget and time-frame.

I believe they just chose the wrong private partner agreement, which mislead them they could do the project cheaper, when they didn't consider any leeway in cost if things went south. Or the private partners interests was to raise more money for their own gain.

I do believe there should be some responsibility on the private partner by promising they can deliver on something at a certain cost and then turning around and say oh no it's the government's fault we went over-budget, even though they didn't actually give any lee-way in their budgeting to account for any mishaps.

Also other than the minor scope changes, I think the cost blowout from the private firm are exaggerated heavily to try to make more profits by asking the state government for more money. They haven't encountered any major problems with the tunnelling, they are also back on schedule, despite being behind schedule before and now it's looking like every detail is confirmed and likely believe I think they can save some extra money by getting the project delivered sooner.

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  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I do believe there should be some responsibility on the private partner by promising they can deliver on something at a certain cost and then turning around and say oh no it's the government's fault we went over-budget, even though they didn't actually give any lee-way in their budgeting to account for any mishaps.
True Believers
That should be in every contract regardless of contract type.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
With the Vic Auditor-General not convinced of the value for money of these PPP I'm increasingly of the opinion that, as someone else has already written, that state governments should drop PPP agreements and do it themselves, even if that means they have to 'carry the can' when things go south.

Neil
As opposed to the Westgate tunnel project, when they....ummm....what did they do there again Rolling Eyes?
Djebel
Yes, well that is one I would strongly suggest should never have been looked at seriously, let alone started. There is a three part blog by a guy (sorry, don't remember his name) who obviously has a lot of experience with writing/confirming business cases and was checking the work on the CBA for both the East-West boondoggle and the equally appalling West Gate "Tunnel" until kicked off the latter because he keep showing that its business case was a sham, written purely with the intention of getting it approved, no matter the cost or terrible CBA.

Neil
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

With the Vic Auditor-General not convinced of the value for money of these PPP I'm increasingly of the opinion that, as someone else has already written, that state governments should drop PPP agreements and do it themselves, even if that means they have to 'carry the can' when things go south.

Neil
ngarner
The government 'carries the can' each way.

MM1 over budget, partly due to station design changes (government) and massive underbid (CYP), who are now trying to pad every cost to make money out of it. Luckily in this case RPV has ripped their claims to shreds, which has not been the case for other PPP projects that past governments have run. So much technical experience had been taken out of the public system, that when things went south and companies asked for more money; it was given. It is a small win that we are starting to see some of that technical experience come back to the public system in this case RPV.

Back to the can, it is the government that is picking it up in the case of MM1 and WGT even though there 'was no risk'. It's not CYP or Transurban reaching into their pockets to fund the shortfalls of their incompetence. It is and always will be the state that has to hand over extra money to see the project completed.

I cant really see the government going down the road of PPP again. RPV is already directly delivering small - medium scale projects around the network. Line upgrades and LX removals being the majors, builders and contractors directly employed by RPV. There is no reason this couldn't be scaled up to deliver future large scale projects. Airport rail and the governments unwillingness to go with the gold plated AirTrain is a good sign.

This is a similar case is the road sphere, with the state already signalling they would build NE Link if they had to.

PPPs were sold to the state as an efficient way to deliver projects, its was the Liberal Governments, 'Governments should govern and the private sector should build' that got them off and going. I cant imagine why they would want to outsource everything to private donors. The theory being that the private sector had more experience and could deliver projects cheaper than the public sector. 20 years down the track and disasters across every state in Australia they are not as efficient as they were sold. Nor have the been the prized scape goat when things go wrong, as much as Dan has tried.

Let's hope we are starting to see the last of these 'wonderful' PPPs and governments go back to building things.

Lockie
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Metro Tunnel 7 months late

The plot thickens. Seems like a total dogs breakfast from the start with CYP.

TBMs ready to go before the precast factory was up and running, then refused to take RPV's advice on speeding up the project.

TBMs were scheduled to be retrieved from Arden in late January, with tunnelling now underway into the CBD it is looking more like April or May. Seems they have made up some time, but are still several months late.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/metro-tunnel-digging-running-seven-months-late-20201115-p56epy.html

Locke
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Metro Tunnel 7 months late

The plot thickens. Seems like a total dogs breakfast from the start with CYP.

TBMs ready to go before the precast factory was up and running, then refused to take RPV's advice on speeding up the project.

TBMs were scheduled to be retrieved from Arden in late January, with tunnelling now underway into the CBD it is looking more like April or May. Seems they have made up some time, but are still several months late.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/metro-tunnel-digging-running-seven-months-late-20201115-p56epy.html

Locke
Lockie91

"RPV also referred to the Sydney Metro Northwest project — a 15-kilometre rail link connecting Sydney's north-western suburbs — to highlight how a complex project encountering a 14-month delay mid-construction was still delivered on-time."

I still believe the Metro Tunnel can be delivered on time if they get everything else working on schedule.
Although it does appear that it forgot that Sydney metro northwest didn't open smoothly, it encountered many issues on launch, let's hope it's not the same here and open it up once it's all ready to go.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Could the two tunnel boring machines be reused for the suburban tail loop cutting down times to deploy tunnels for the project or could they just keep going and get started on metro 2 ?
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

A 7 month delay isn't great, but on a global scale isn't huge.  In Berlin it's taken them 20 years to extend the U5 a few kilometres, due to finances and ground conditions.  The new Berlin international airport opened this month, it was originally supposed to open in 2011...
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Could the two tunnel boring machines be reused for the suburban tail loop cutting down times to deploy tunnels for the project or could they just keep going and get started on metro 2 ?
freightgate
It would be very remiss of RPV ( whoever the predecessor was) to not have a contract clause
that ownership of the TBM (and associated concrete plants etc) doesn't pass to the state. The state paid for them.

The premier at the time intimated words to the effect that "our TBM will be used for other projects".

cheers
John
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
According to a video posted to the Metro website and its social media the shell of the shields are going to become a permanent part of Town Hall station (which I've posed previously in this thread IIRC) but the rest of the TBMs are going to be recovered for re-use. The video doesn't indicate what project but SRL is a good bet with MM2 being probably the next option. That means that Herrenknecht will have to construct four new shells but they are effectively just large (specialised) tubes, so relatively easy, in TBM terms anyway.

Neil
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

According to a video posted to the Metro website and its social media the shell of the shields are going to become a permanent part of Town Hall station (which I've posed previously in this thread IIRC) but the rest of the TBMs are going to be recovered for re-use. The video doesn't indicate what project but SRL is a good bet with MM2 being probably the next option. That means that Herrenknecht will have to construct four new shells but they are effectively just large (specialised) tubes, so relatively easy, in TBM terms anyway.

Neil
ngarner
From what I've gleaned from reading over the years it's common for TBMs to be completely reconditioned, and then sold on. I should imagine there's not much in the way of original parts on a reconditioned TBM. A bit like a rebuilt loco, just the frame remains.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
A 7 month delay isn't great, but on a global scale isn't huge.  In Berlin it's taken them 20 years to extend the U5 a few kilometres, due to finances and ground conditions.  The new Berlin international airport opened this month, it was originally supposed to open in 2011...
Adogs

I agree but the important info is what is the length of the Berlin works compared to the Melbourne works?
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

A 7 month delay isn't great, but on a global scale isn't huge.  In Berlin it's taken them 20 years to extend the U5 a few kilometres, due to finances and ground conditions.  The new Berlin international airport opened this month, it was originally supposed to open in 2011...

I agree but the important info is what is the length of the Berlin works compared to the Melbourne works?
NSWGR8022

The U5 extension in Berlin is a couple of km, about half the length of the Melbourne metro tunnel.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

A couple of kilometre of tunnel is about 2 kilometre. So the you say half the metro tunnel, half of 9 is 4.5 kilometres?

Something doesn’t add up.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

A couple of kilometre of tunnel is about 2 kilometre. So the you say half the metro tunnel, half of 9 is 4.5 kilometres?

Something doesn’t add up.
True Believers

By "a couple of kilometres" I didn't mean literally two.  The U5 extension is 4km total, they built the western section (1.8km) about ten years ago and have been running it as a short shuttle line since then, while they've been working on the remaining 2.2km that will connect it to the rest of the network.

So in total, 4km, a little under half the length of the Melbourne Metro.  And for various financial, technical and political reasons, construction has gone years past the original due date.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

A couple of kilometre of tunnel is about 2 kilometre. So the you say half the metro tunnel, half of 9 is 4.5 kilometres?

Something doesn’t add up.

By "a couple of kilometres" I didn't mean literally two.  The U5 extension is 4km total, they built the western section (1.8km) about ten years ago and have been running it as a short shuttle line since then, while they've been working on the remaining 2.2km that will connect it to the rest of the network.

So in total, 4km, a little under half the length of the Melbourne Metro.  And for various financial, technical and political reasons, construction has gone years past the original due date.
Adogs
Then it's more than a couple of kilometres, a couple normally refers to two.

I saw on the diagram it's been done in sections by the looks of it over a much larger scale extension.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

"RPV also referred to the Sydney Metro Northwest project — a 15-kilometre rail link connecting Sydney's north-western suburbs — to highlight how a complex project encountering a 14-month delay mid-construction was still delivered on-time."

I still believe the Metro Tunnel can be delivered on time if they get everything else working on schedule.
Although it does appear that it forgot that Sydney metro northwest didn't open smoothly, it encountered many issues on launch, let's hope it's not the same here and open it up once it's all ready to go.
True Believers

Sydney metro north west didn't have a 14 month delay at any time. The only delay that I know of was when several precast concrete sections on the skyrail cracked when tension cables were tightened too much but that was only a few months at most.

I think RPV mistook the north west metro for the south east light rail which definetly had a delay of about 14 months.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

"RPV also referred to the Sydney Metro Northwest project — a 15-kilometre rail link connecting Sydney's north-western suburbs — to highlight how a complex project encountering a 14-month delay mid-construction was still delivered on-time."

I still believe the Metro Tunnel can be delivered on time if they get everything else working on schedule.
Although it does appear that it forgot that Sydney metro northwest didn't open smoothly, it encountered many issues on launch, let's hope it's not the same here and open it up once it's all ready to go.

Sydney metro north west didn't have a 14 month delay at any time. The only delay that I know of was when several precast concrete sections on the skyrail cracked when tension cables were tightened too much but that was only a few months at most.

I think RPV mistook the north west metro for the south east light rail which definetly had a delay of about 14 months.
simstrain
It can't be since the south east light rail project was delivered late and the north west metro was delivered on time.

Probably had a 14 month delay when they hit some issues with the concrete sections, and other parts of the project, but ended up delivered on time. The delays were during construction, not after construction.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

A couple of kilometre of tunnel is about 2 kilometre. So the you say half the metro tunnel, half of 9 is 4.5 kilometres?

Something doesn’t add up.

By "a couple of kilometres" I didn't mean literally two.  The U5 extension is 4km total, they built the western section (1.8km) about ten years ago and have been running it as a short shuttle line since then, while they've been working on the remaining 2.2km that will connect it to the rest of the network.

So in total, 4km, a little under half the length of the Melbourne Metro.  And for various financial, technical and political reasons, construction has gone years past the original due date.
Then it's more than a couple of kilometres, a couple normally refers to two.

I saw on the diagram it's been done in sections by the looks of it over a much larger scale extension.
True Believers

Not really.  The original plan was to build a line extending the U5 from Alexanderplatz, all the way to Tegel Airport, via the Central Station (which otherwise didn't have any U-Bahn connection).

But they very quickly realised the money wasn't there for it.  Plus Tegel is closing this month.  So it's taken them over 20 years to build 4km, and the rest isn't likely to ever happen.

Anyway, point is - in Germany, 7 months behind schedule on a 9km project would seem relatively good!
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

It can't be since the south east light rail project was delivered late and the north west metro was delivered on time.

Probably had a 14 month delay when they hit some issues with the concrete sections, and other parts of the project, but ended up delivered on time. The delays were during construction, not after construction.
True Believers

Well I don't know where they got there 14 month delay from because the north west metro wasn't delayed at any point by 14 months. The concrete sections did not take 14 months to resolve. New sections were made and it was only delayed a few months. The south east light rail was delayed significantly during construction. If it was delayed by 14 months at any time the project would have run late by a year and the cost of the project wouldn't have come in at the $7 billion.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
TBM "Millie" is now digging north from ANZAC the 1.8km to Town Hall, somewhat earlier than last announced, however, "Alice's" launch north has been put back to late January now

Millie launch

Neil
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
TBM update:
Joan has passed the half way point on her journey to State Library with Meg a fifth of the way on the same journey

Neil
  Power_Guy Beginner

TBM update:
Joan has passed the half way point on her journey to State Library with Meg a fifth of the way on the same journey

Neil
ngarner

According to a press release today Joan has hit State Library. Seems like an amazing speed.

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/tbm-joan-hits-state-library-station
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Jacinta Allan's Facebook post:
"An early Christmas gift has arrived deep under the Melbourne CBD streets - TBM Joan has broken through at the future State Library station!

Joan is the first tunnel boring machine to break through into the CBD, and will soon be followed by TBM Meg who isn't far behind, digging the twin tunnel that will get Victorians from Parkville into the city and beyond from 2024."

Is this confirming they will open the Metro Tunnel in 2024 now???

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