The Greens want peak trains running every 2-3 minutes on every(!) line in Melbourne. Plus big tram upgrades.

More in their 'Rail to Recovery' plan here: https://greens.org.au/sites/default/files/2020-11/Rail%20to%20Recovery%20V6%20%28002%29.pdf

They're selling it as part of a 'Green New Deal'. https://greens.org.au/vic/campaigns/gnd

Despite a Legislative Council motion being passed, government budgetary support is very unlikely.  

But as it made it to Parliament it's in this forum rather than 'Armchair Operators'.

Anyway, what do you think would be needed to make it happen? And would it be worthwhile or just overkill?

More background and views on my blog here: https://melbourneontransit.blogspot.com/2020/11/missing-bus-victorian-greens.html

Such frequencies will be very attractive and will help get more cars off roads, but with that sort of frequency you can't have any single lines, flat junctions nor road level crossings.  So it will be much more than just trains and drivers.  Tram frequency of 5 minutes all day all days would be convenient.  As it will be a turn-up-and-go service you can probably just have the termini as OPR timing points so you won't have passengers waiting inside early running trams when the traffic just happens to be better than usual.  However Swanston St. routes won't be able to achieve such frequency due to route sharing.

Such frequencies will be very attractive and will help get more cars off roads, but with that sort of frequency you can't have any single lines, flat junctions nor road level crossings.  So it will be much more than just trains and drivers.  Tram frequency of 5 minutes all day all days would be convenient.  As it will be a turn-up-and-go service you can probably just have the termini as OPR timing points so you won't have passengers waiting inside early running trams when the traffic just happens to be better than usual.  However Swanston St. routes won't be able to achieve such frequency due to route sharing.

You don't really believe that it would be attractive let alone possible do you?  Get more cars off the roads, no they will still use cars because of the convenience and the non ability to park any where near a Train Station.

So all we need to operate trains on every line every say 3 minutes would be ?

An as yet not designed High Speed Signalling System.
More Trains, or just run 3 carriage EMU's.
Heaps more Drivers.
Of course more electricity for the system, seeing as how Victoria has load shedding during high demand periods now.  Where would we get the power from, unicorn farts?

What do the loopy greens smoke? or have they upgraded to something that needs a needle to inject?

The Greens want peak trains running every 2-3 minutes on every(!) line in Melbourne. Plus big tram upgrades.

More in their 'Rail to Recovery' plan here: https://greens.org.au/sites/default/files/2020-11/Rail%20to%20Recovery%20V6%20%28002%29.pdf

They're selling it as part of a 'Green New Deal'. https://greens.org.au/vic/campaigns/gnd

Despite a Legislative Council motion being passed, government budgetary support is very unlikely.  

But as it made it to Parliament it's in this forum rather than 'Armchair Operators'.

Anyway, what do you think would be needed to make it happen? And would it be worthwhile or just overkill?

More background and views on my blog here: https://melbourneontransit.blogspot.com/2020/11/missing-bus-victorian-greens.html

It's a serious proposal so it probably deserves to have a thread here - however not even the Tube can manage frequencies that high so really they're dreaming.

Although I remember reading somewhere that in the fifties Melbourne trains had peak hour headways that were that tight.

The system can take such minimal headways between certain services.  On lines with two-tier services the SAS locals are often scheduled to trail the express two minutes behind at the origin.  However you do need network upgrade to CBTC to enable such frequency to run more consistently.

The Greens want peak trains running every 2-3 minutes on every(!) line in Melbourne. Plus big tram upgrades.

More in their 'Rail to Recovery' plan here: https://greens.org.au/sites/default/files/2020-11/Rail%20to%20Recovery%20V6%20%28002%29.pdf

They're selling it as part of a 'Green New Deal'. https://greens.org.au/vic/campaigns/gnd

Despite a Legislative Council motion being passed, government budgetary support is very unlikely.  

But as it made it to Parliament it's in this forum rather than 'Armchair Operators'.

Anyway, what do you think would be needed to make it happen? And would it be worthwhile or just overkill?

More background and views on my blog here: https://melbourneontransit.blogspot.com/2020/11/missing-bus-victorian-greens.html

The Greenies,  what a load of RUBBISH........................verbal Diiorreah............................

Rather aspirational.

I had a chuckle at the fine print proposal at the bottom of the document involving the Bendigo - Ballarat - Geelong passenger rail chestnut.  Good luck!

I presume that V/Line Bendigo, Gippsland and Seymour services would have to trundle along behind SAS Metro services as there would be zero paths available for them to run at anything like line speed.

That should add 15 minutes or more to each trip I reckon so if anyone is in the market for a low mileage V/Locity set now might be a good time to start planning the stabling siding in your back yard

I note that the Greens did not consider upgrading the bus system as part of their proposal. High-frequency train services are useless if people can't get to the station to use them.

What is the benefit of having a 3 minute service to places like Hurstbridge, Lilydale, Sunbury or all the other outer suburban termi? As has been mentioned, all pointless if your local bus still runs at 40 minute intervals.

A few of these suburban outposts barley warrant 10 minute off peak frequencies, with a 20 minute service being a vast improvement.

It's very much a 'plan' for inner city commuters that already enjoy vastly higher frequencies than their poor suburban commuters. Clifton Hill, Footscray, Box Hill, North Melbourne already enjoy frequencies of 2 - 3 minutes during the peak. Trams run every 10 - 12 minutes and busses are not elite enough for the Greens.

Have they even attempted a quick back of the napkin costing? 2.5 Billion is being spent on Sunbury to upgrade the line to Metro standard, a similar amount being spent on Pakenham. (excluding the LX removals). They are looking at tens of billions to provide a 2 minute headway to Belgrave and Williamstown. Then add in the removal of every level crossing in metro Melbourne, the reconstruction of 200 or so platforms and stations, the construction of new and upgraded stabling yards.

They have really outdone themselves on this one.

The majority of people living in the outer suburbs would be happy if their bus came every 20 minutes and had a Sunday service. I guess they are not, nor ever will be Green votes.

Lockie

What is the benefit of having a 3 minute service to places like Hurstbridge, Lilydale, Sunbury or all the other outer suburban termi? As has been mentioned, all pointless if your local bus still runs at 40 minute intervals.

A few of these suburban outposts barley warrant 10 minute off peak frequencies, with a 20 minute service being a vast improvement.

It's very much a 'plan' for inner city commuters that already enjoy vastly higher frequencies than their poor suburban commuters. Clifton Hill, Footscray, Box Hill, North Melbourne already enjoy frequencies of 2 - 3 minutes during the peak. Trams run every 10 - 12 minutes and busses are not elite enough for the Greens.

Lockie

Funny that you should mention North Melbourne, Greens and busses. I regularly use North Melbourne when visiting 'er indoors. It is a Greens stronghold yet PT around the area is totally disjointed. The 57 tram is too far from the station to be useful and the route 216/219(?) bus which is still a fair walk away is pretty much useless as it basically parallels the rail line

The station needs a bus or (hideously expensive) tram route diversion to connect the station to the 57 tram or Errol St. I wrote to PTV a few months back about creating one extra stop in each direction for the route 401 University > Hospital > North Melbourne bus shuttle service. These stops would be near the corner of Arden and Abbotsford Sts for services heading from the station and on Abbotsford St near the corner of Queensberry for those heading towards the station. Of course I was fobbed off with a polite email which clearly showed that no one had read my idea as they told me that the 401 bus didn't go near my suggested locations

These are the sort of issues that the Greens as the local members around here should be pushing not impossibly grandiose plans to sink the state under a pile of debt for the convenience of inner city residents being able to get to their favourite bar / cafe a few minutes quicker. But as already pointed out buses are not cool enough for the Greens.

The Greenies,  what a load of RUBBISH........................verbal Diiorreah............................

I see you didn't bother with a spell check.

M.

The Greenies,  what a load of RUBBISH........................verbal Diiorreah............................

I see you didn't bother with a spell check.

M.

correct.............................

This is so light on detail, it's almost a throwaway remark. But I guess that's par for the course with the watermelon brigade.

This is so light on detail, it's almost a throwaway remark. But I guess that's par for the course with the watermelon brigade.

They don't have any way of delivering it so they don't need much more than what they've given. At the last election they had much more concrete details on plans for trains, trams and buses. Those plans have since morphed into this weird "plan" which has nothing about buses and is very light on details. I will say that stage 1 to get to 10 minute frequencies off peak is not fantastical and needs to be in the budget this year

What is the benefit of having a 3 minute service to places like Hurstbridge, Lilydale, Sunbury or all the other outer suburban termi? As has been mentioned, all pointless if your local bus still runs at 40 minute intervals.

A few of these suburban outposts barley warrant 10 minute off peak frequencies, with a 20 minute service being a vast improvement.

It's very much a 'plan' for inner city commuters that already enjoy vastly higher frequencies than their poor suburban commuters. Clifton Hill, Footscray, Box Hill, North Melbourne already enjoy frequencies of 2 - 3 minutes during the peak. Trams run every 10 - 12 minutes and busses are not elite enough for the Greens.

Lockie

Funny that you should mention North Melbourne, Greens and busses. I regularly use North Melbourne when visiting 'er indoors. It is a Greens stronghold yet PT around the area is totally disjointed. The 57 tram is too far from the station to be useful and the route 216/219(?) bus which is still a fair walk away is pretty much useless as it basically parallels the rail line

The station needs a bus or (hideously expensive) tram route diversion to connect the station to the 57 tram or Errol St. I wrote to PTV a few months back about creating one extra stop in each direction for the route 401 University > Hospital > North Melbourne bus shuttle service. These stops would be near the corner of Arden and Abbotsford Sts for services heading from the station and on Abbotsford St near the corner of Queensberry for those heading towards the station. Of course I was fobbed off with a polite email which clearly showed that no one had read my idea as they told me that the 401 bus didn't go near my suggested locations

These are the sort of issues that the Greens as the local members around here should be pushing not impossibly grandiose plans to sink the state under a pile of debt for the convenience of inner city residents being able to get to their favourite bar / cafe a few minutes quicker. But as already pointed out buses are not cool enough for the Greens.

Yes. Heavy Rail is getting multi billions in funding whilst the Bus Network recieves just $16 Million in Capital funding to purchase 100 cheap and nasty single decker buses. Considering that the vast majority of buses run buses every 30 mins on weekdays and hourly during weekends ending at 9.30 pm the Bus Network isn't fit for purpose.

It would be nice for the Government to just spend $1 or $2 Billion on capital works and attempt to provide frequent bus services. After all vast areas of Melbourne are not near a tram or a train station.


Michael

While we are at it, here are the transport projects that the Coalition want included in the State Budget.

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-catch-up-train-services-for-fast-growing-centres-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-duplicating-single-metropolitan-train-tracks-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-upcoming-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-completing-the-missing-links-in-the-metropolitan-tram-network-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-the-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-east-west-link-must-be-on-the-andrews-labor-governments-budget-agenda/

Ross

I laugh at how they're still pushing East-West Link.

While we are at it, here are the transport projects that the Coalition want included in the State Budget.

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-catch-up-train-services-for-fast-growing-centres-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-duplicating-single-metropolitan-train-tracks-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-upcoming-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-completing-the-missing-links-in-the-metropolitan-tram-network-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-the-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-east-west-link-must-be-on-the-andrews-labor-governments-budget-agenda/

Ross

A couple good points in these releases (eg. Upfield duplication/Somerton connection, Lilydale duplication with LX project, Melton and WV electrification, "common sense" tram extensions...). Davis has done his homework on these, picking some low hanging fruit.

The next category is the inflammatory political footballs (EW Link, Clyde - Libs suggested extension without duplication, Baxter ~ 44c/dollar). Finally he suggests projects not even on the PTV radar (Alamein and Belgrave duplications).

Most of these are headline vote grabbing attempts and as usual there is a big helping of DAndrews bashing. Might be worth trying the polite approach once in a while, the whole attracting more flies with honey strategy.

While we are at it, here are the transport projects that the Coalition want included in the State Budget.

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-catch-up-train-services-for-fast-growing-centres-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-duplicating-single-metropolitan-train-tracks-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-upcoming-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-completing-the-missing-links-in-the-metropolitan-tram-network-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-the-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-east-west-link-must-be-on-the-andrews-labor-governments-budget-agenda/

Ross

I can't believe it. The liberal party is actually promoting some sensible and cheap projects, instead of the 50 road bridges they tried last time.

100%, these are the sorts of projects (like the level crossing removals) that need to be done to increase the utilisation of the assets we already have. Not done instead of the SRL, but done in conjunction. It's not a one or either policy, it's a policy that promotes sensible upgrades to current infrastructure to maximise utility whilst also doing some forward planning whilst it cheap to do so.

How screwed would we be if the Victorian Railways of the 1800s and early 1900s hadn't built railway lines into the "country" to places like Glen Waverley, Frankston, Ringwood/Box Hill, Werribee and St Albans. Forward planning is cheap, and as we've learnt, sprawl will quickly catchup and services filled. Better that, than living in Point Cook where it can take 30min in peak to drive the 4km to Williams Landing (on that note, decouple the Altona line and extend it to point cook, if not werribee south).

I laugh at how they're still pushing East-West Link.

The East West Link makes a lot of sense, it was how they wanted to implement it that rubbed many the wrong way.

I laugh at how they're still pushing East-West Link.

The East West Link makes a lot of sense, it was how they wanted to implement it that rubbed many the wrong way.

The west gate tunnel was just east west link stage 2 under a new name, and in all honesty should've been built first. It makes the east-west link business case stack up better, which is why Andrews built it. I'd expect him to build east-west link under a new name claiming the business case now stacks up. The state still owns a lot of acquired properties in that area.

If they wanted to do it cheaper, they could build it semi-submerged between hoddle st and nicholson st, like this but with some decking over it for green space and the like:

If the East-West Link is built, it should be built as a bypass of the city.

From the Eastern Freeway (somewhere between Hoddle and Chandler), interhcange with the Ring Road both ways at Sunshine North, and then out onto an upgraded Western Freeway somewhere beyond the Deer Park bypass.  If you want to be even more extreme, don't interchange with the Ring Road.  Just East to West.

Trying to build an interchange with Citylink will be a nightmare, and greatly reduce the East-West link's effectiveness as a bypass because of the jams on Citylink caused by the number of exits leading into the city and inner suburbs.  By my reckoning there's at least 8 exits (depends how you want to count them) in 10km.

The west gate tunnel was just east west link stage 2 under a new name, and in all honesty should've been built first. It makes the east-west link business case stack up better, which is why Andrews built it.

The West Gate Tunnel is vastly inferior to what was originally proposed as the western half of the East-West Link (and the WestLink project before that).  The western half of the EWL project was originally proposed by the Brumby Government in the late 2000s following the Eddington report (East-West Needs Assessment).

Brumby chose to prioritise the western part of the project between the Ring Road and Footscray Road and had been progressing the planning of the project until he lost power to Baillieu in 2010.  When Baillieu came to power nothing much happened for a few years and there were very few major infrastructure projects underway in Victoria.  Then when Baillieu was replaced by Napthine, it was identified that major infrastructure projects were required in order to hold onto power.  The EWL project was quickly resurrected, but this time the eastern half between the Eastern Freeway and CityLink was prioritised.  The western half was relegated to be 'Stage 2'.

When Andrews won the election in 2014 and cancelled the EWL project and released various versions of the Business Case with low BCRs, it was only the eastern half of the project that these versions of the Business Case referred to.  The western half always had a higher business case than the eastern half.

The reason why the original WestLink project was vastly superior to the West Gate Tunnel is that west of the Maribyrnong River it followed a completely different alignment through West Footscray, Tottenham, Brooklyn and Sunshine West and provided new interchanges to provide access to existing underdeveloped areas in that region (the route is still shown on the maps available within Melway Online).  By contrast the West Gate Tunnel Project only widens the existing West Gate Freeway, providing no alternative access routes other than new connections to the Port of Melbourne area.  It also doesn't provide any alternatives in the event of significant congestion or incidents and utilises a large section of the existing Ring Road in order to access the Western Freeway.

The other issue with the West Gate Tunnel Project is that it was an industry led project dreamt up by a private consortium with the aim of maximising their profits, rather than something that was properly planned by Government to best meet the needs of the community.

Ross

While we are at it, here are the transport projects that the Coalition want included in the State Budget.

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-catch-up-train-services-for-fast-growing-centres-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-duplicating-single-metropolitan-train-tracks-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-upcoming-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-completing-the-missing-links-in-the-metropolitan-tram-network-must-be-a-priority-for-labor-in-the-state-budget/

http://daviddavis.com.au/media-release-east-west-link-must-be-on-the-andrews-labor-governments-budget-agenda/

Ross

All very good and well for the libs to release a wish list of projects when they have no responsibility.

The EWL had me laughing all over the place, when with Libs both state and federal just move on from this project. It's been almost a decade. Other funnies include the bashing of the government for Baxter, even though the fed libs have been sitting on the business case for a year. We know now why with such low BCR.

Clyde also had me in stitches after they took the project to the last election without any funding for the single track Cranbourne section. Labor has already committed to Clyde, once Cranbourne is fully duplicated.

The mentioned Rowville Rail Plan is the RFI multi billion dollar tunnel via Chadstone that will never be built for a hand full of TPH.

Electrification to Wallan and increased services to Upfield can not happen until MM1 is built. Im not sure where Mr Davis expects the capacity to come from currently.

Duplicating Belgrave and Alamein Lines? Not needed for a long time.

The only sensible thing he has suggested in the short tram extensions. Something that has been needed for quite some time now. I guess it's all very easy to throw out a bunch of projects that should be built when you are not paying for them, nor when you have no responsibility.

Luckily we will have to wait a few years to see if they can come up with some decent pre elections ideas.

Lockie