NSW announces massive transport infrastructure budget

 

News article: NSW announces massive transport infrastructure budget

The New South Wales Government has announced $33 billion worth of transport infrastructure investments in its 2020-21 State Budget, including $14 billion in transport infrastructure to connect Greater Sydney.

  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
$28b into the Sydney metro leaves a $2.2b investment in suburban metro in Melbourne in the dust. 

Amazing investment in Sydney will will bring benefits and investment from business.

NSW announces massive transport infrastructure budget

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  viaprojects Chief Train Controller



Amazing investment in Sydney will will bring benefits and investment from business.

freightgate


not really - the budget is stuffed - and there still spending money..no real new jobs - just people moving to the next project  ..
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
I've heard speculation about electrifying between Kiama and Bombaderry. Is there any funding for it?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner



Amazing investment in Sydney will will bring benefits and investment from business.


not really - the budget is stuffed - and there still spending money..no real new jobs - just people moving to the next project  ..
viaprojects

Our budget isn't anywhere near as bad as the other states.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


Amazing investment in Sydney will will bring benefits and investment from business.


not really - the budget is stuffed - and there still spending money..no real new jobs - just people moving to the next project  ..
viaprojects
No, its an increase in spending per year, so there are more "real" jobs. Even if there wasn't it provides ongoing demand for services and materials for economy to supply.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


Amazing investment in Sydney will will bring benefits and investment from business.


not really - the budget is stuffed - and there still spending money..no real new jobs - just people moving to the next project  ..
Our budget isn't anywhere near as bad as the other states.
simstrain
How many times over the years in RP have various posters talked down the need for a Surplus, the roosters have come home.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
What amazes me about this expenditure, is that no one seems to be getting from one place to another place more quickly than before - metro excepted perhaps. No realignments, no faster trains. Speed is almost never mentioned - it’s all about safety and reliability. Noble that they are but they also miss an essential element in my opinion.

Whenever this kind of cash is spent in my current country you normally see large reductions in real travel time - in one case pulling hours out of a trip.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What amazes me about this expenditure, is that no one seems to be getting from one place to another place more quickly than before - metro excepted perhaps. No realignments, no faster trains. Speed is almost never mentioned - it’s all about safety and reliability. Noble that they are but they also miss an essential element in my opinion.

Whenever this kind of cash is spent in my current country you normally see large reductions in real travel time - in one case pulling hours out of a trip.
arctic
Yes and No, you are mixing apples with Oranges.

The Metro NW, SW and Western projects are all commuter rail will reduce travel time, obviously the distance limits the scope on how much can be reduced. Likewise I'd expect the Melbourne MM1 project and Brisbane CRR projects to both save some travel time. These projects are all about capacity growth and adding new locations to the rail foot print.

The reference to Switzerland you mention is long distance and regional rail.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Yes for CRR and MM1 - but not in NSW.

I used one stark example. Where I am they also pull time out of suburban trips, every project has this aspect, whereas all I see in NSW is lengthening times, especially the timetable changes in the 2000s, not shortening them.

I don’t see regional rail in NSW getting any faster either. Maybe a bit with the XPT replacements. You would think with all this money, there might be a larger performance benefit.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Yes for CRR and MM1 - but not in NSW.

I used one stark example. Where I am they also pull time out of suburban trips, every project has this aspect, whereas all I see in NSW is lengthening times, especially the timetable changes in the 2000s, not shortening them.

I don’t see regional rail in NSW getting any faster either. Maybe a bit with the XPT replacements. You would think with all this money, there might be a larger performance benefit.
arctic
You would think that Transport for NSW would be looking at staged mainline railway realignments of the Main South to say Goulburn and the North Coast to say Tarre, where the parallel highway has been mostly developed Into a full standard motorway (110 km/h) but the mainline railway remains on It's slow Indirect steam age alignments.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Yes for CRR and MM1 - but not in NSW.

I used one stark example. Where I am they also pull time out of suburban trips, every project has this aspect, whereas all I see in NSW is lengthening times, especially the timetable changes in the 2000s, not shortening them.

I don’t see regional rail in NSW getting any faster either. Maybe a bit with the XPT replacements. You would think with all this money, there might be a larger performance benefit.
arctic

Regional NSW doesn't really have the numbers to make rail viable for passenger traffic. It is significantly subsidised and exists purely to make people happy they have a rail service rather then actually be of any real use as a PT service. None of the projects being built in Sydney will have any effect on regional rail and the new trains are more about driving the cost of operation down to reduce the required subsidy then it is about reducing travel time.

When the CBD Metro is built it will definetly help reduce travel time from the north west and even at Chatswood in to the CBD. It should make the trip to/from Bankstown about 6 minutes faster but it's main help is probably going to be in freeing up spots around the city circle for extra T8 airport and T2 services.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

You would think that Transport for NSW would be looking at staged mainline railway realignments of the Main South to say Goulburn and the North Coast to say Tarre, where the parallel highway has been mostly developed Into a full standard motorway (110 km/h) but the mainline railway remains on It's slow Indirect steam age alignments.
Nightfire
None of those lines are under the control of TNSW. Those are all ARTC lines and funded by themselves or the federal government.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

You would think that Transport for NSW would be looking at staged mainline railway realignments of the Main South to say Goulburn and the North Coast to say Tarre, where the parallel highway has been mostly developed Into a full standard motorway (110 km/h) but the mainline railway remains on It's slow Indirect steam age alignments.
None of those lines are under the control of TNSW. Those are all ARTC lines and funded by themselves or the federal government.
simstrain
That the lines are operated by ARTC (leased from NSW) is not a barrier to NSW contributing funding to upgrades.

The feds fund upgrades for state-operated lines all the time.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

You would think that Transport for NSW would be looking at staged mainline railway realignments of the Main South to say Goulburn and the North Coast to say Tarre, where the parallel highway has been mostly developed Into a full standard motorway (110 km/h) but the mainline railway remains on It's slow Indirect steam age alignments.
None of those lines are under the control of TNSW. Those are all ARTC lines and funded by themselves or the federal government.
That the lines are operated by ARTC (leased from NSW) is not a barrier to NSW contributing funding to upgrades.

The feds fund upgrades for state-operated lines all the time.
justapassenger

Yes it is a barrier. The point of leasing the lines to the ARTC is so that NSW doesn't have to put money in to the line. Any such line is going to require a lot of money and if the NSW government did want something done they wouldn't hand it over the the incompentant oafs at the ARTC.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Disagree as much as you want but NSW isn't going to put any money in to any line that the ARTC operates. The feds wanted the line and so they have to fund the line. If you ask might the NSW government invest in a new line south of macarthur separate from what was leased then that is a possibility but money won't be going in to the existing main south while the ARTC operate the line.

It is the same reason no NSW Government money is going in to the inland rail. NSW has it own lines to fund without having to look after what the feds control. The only thing the NSW Government is funding is grade separations with road which comes out of the road budget and not rail.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

You would think that Transport for NSW would be looking at staged mainline railway realignments of the Main South to say Goulburn and the North Coast to say Tarre, where the parallel highway has been mostly developed Into a full standard motorway (110 km/h) but the mainline railway remains on It's slow Indirect steam age alignments.
None of those lines are under the control of TNSW. Those are all ARTC lines and funded by themselves or the federal government.
That the lines are operated by ARTC (leased from NSW) is not a barrier to NSW contributing funding to upgrades.

The feds fund upgrades for state-operated lines all the time.

Yes it is a barrier. The point of leasing the lines to the ARTC is so that NSW doesn't have to put money in to the line. Any such line is going to require a lot of money and if the NSW government did want something done they wouldn't hand it over the the incompentant oafs at the ARTC.
simstrain
Rubbish. If NSW ever wanted to upgrade these lines, they wouldn't let that little obstacle get in the way.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yes for CRR and MM1 - but not in NSW.

I used one stark example. Where I am they also pull time out of suburban trips, every project has this aspect, whereas all I see in NSW is lengthening times, especially the timetable changes in the 2000s, not shortening them.

I don’t see regional rail in NSW getting any faster either. Maybe a bit with the XPT replacements. You would think with all this money, there might be a larger performance benefit.
arctic
Sydney Metro lines will be faster than existing lines.

The change in 2000 timetable was acknowledging what was always there but conveniently hidden behind trains without speedo's and recorders.

Rural lines, while others have stated it under Fed lease, if the NSw Govt wanted to upgrade the travel time on the South Main for Southern Highlands commuters then it would come under state funding.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

No it isn't rubbish. The lines while under ARTC control until 2064 and will not get any funding from the NSW Government. NSW might build some new rail lines which is actually what might be happening but it will not fund any improvements the the existing line while ARTC are in charge. The current Southern highlands services will stay as they are with no improvements aside from whatever the new trains can offer.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Completely incorrect.

NSW is not investing in those lines purely because successive state governments have held a policy of not investing in those lines.

Should a NSW state government choose to change that policy in the future, ARTC will not let the paperwork get between them and the money. Everyone has their price.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
No it isn't rubbish. The lines while under ARTC control until 2064 and will not get any funding from the NSW Government. NSW might build some new rail lines which is actually what might be happening but it will not fund any improvements the the existing line while ARTC are in charge. The current Southern highlands services will stay as they are with no improvements aside from whatever the new trains can offer.
simstrain
No Sim's.

If NSW wants to upgrade the interurban lines currently under ARTC control there is nothing, let me repeat, nothing stopping the NSW govt from funding such a project provided the ARTC approve the technical aspect and there is not compromise to ARTC standards and operations.

Ignoring the South Main, the NSW govt still has full control over the South Coast, Blue Mountains and Central Coast lines and nothing has been spent there to reduce travel time. The Central Coast line likely moves more than all the interurban lines in Victoria do combined outside Geelong. There is plenty of opportunity of not overly expensive to shave 5-10 min off south of Gosford and again north of Gosford.  

However I will agree for now, the investment needs to be in the Suburban network forf which there can be a knock on effect benefit to the interurban lines with the exception of the south coast line. If ever there was a line crying for investment, this is it.

It wouldn't hurt for the Fed's and NSW to get together and upgrade the Campbelltown to Albury line though. Even $1B used curve easing would make a difference.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
$28b into the Sydney metro leaves a $2.2b investment in suburban metro in Melbourne in the dust.

Amazing investment in Sydney will will bring benefits and investment from business.

NSW announces massive transport infrastructure budget
freightgate
But it is not - and never was - $28 Billion for the metro, was it?

That's the total infrastructure spend - and some of those projects have already been announced and/or are underway, for example, the XPT/Xplorer replacement & service center (listed as "More than $43 million ($1.3 billion over four years) for the Regional Rail Fleet Program to replace the ageing fleet and build a rail maintenance facility in Dubbo")
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

No Sim's.

If NSW wants to upgrade the interurban lines currently under ARTC control there is nothing, let me repeat, nothing stopping the NSW govt from funding such a project provided the ARTC approve the technical aspect and there is not compromise to ARTC standards and operations.

Ignoring the South Main, the NSW govt still has full control over the South Coast, Blue Mountains and Central Coast lines and nothing has been spent there to reduce travel time. The Central Coast line likely moves more than all the interurban lines in Victoria do combined outside Geelong. There is plenty of opportunity of not overly expensive to shave 5-10 min off south of Gosford and again north of Gosford.  

However I will agree for now, the investment needs to be in the Suburban network for which there can be a knock on effect benefit to the interurban lines with the exception of the south coast line. If ever there was a line crying for investment, this is it.

It wouldn't hurt for the Fed's and NSW to get together and upgrade the Campbelltown to Albury line though. Even $1B used curve easing would make a difference.
RTT_Rules

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. The ARTC don't have any standards because if they did then the current track wouldn't be the complete joke it currently is. It is the ARTC's responsibility and the NSW Government isn't going to fund that joke of an organisation. Macarthur to Albury is the responsibility of the Feds and the ARTC until 2064.

What NSW is looking at is a fast rail corridor completely separate from the main south but that is not for quite some time and likely to be around the time the ARTC's lease comes to an end. https://future.transport.nsw.gov.au/project-highlights/fast-rail

In the short term however the new regional rolling stock for non electrified intercity and regional services and the metro's take priority in.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

No Sim's.

If NSW wants to upgrade the interurban lines currently under ARTC control there is nothing, let me repeat, nothing stopping the NSW govt from funding such a project provided the ARTC approve the technical aspect and there is not compromise to ARTC standards and operations.

Ignoring the South Main, the NSW govt still has full control over the South Coast, Blue Mountains and Central Coast lines and nothing has been spent there to reduce travel time. The Central Coast line likely moves more than all the interurban lines in Victoria do combined outside Geelong. There is plenty of opportunity of not overly expensive to shave 5-10 min off south of Gosford and again north of Gosford.  

However I will agree for now, the investment needs to be in the Suburban network for which there can be a knock on effect benefit to the interurban lines with the exception of the south coast line. If ever there was a line crying for investment, this is it.

It wouldn't hurt for the Fed's and NSW to get together and upgrade the Campbelltown to Albury line though. Even $1B used curve easing would make a difference.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. The ARTC don't have any standards because if they did then the current track wouldn't be the complete joke it currently is. It is the ARTC's responsibility and the NSW Government isn't going to fund that joke of an organisation. Macarthur to Albury is the responsibility of the Feds and the ARTC until 2064.

What NSW is looking at is a fast rail corridor completely separate from the main south but that is not for quite some time and likely to be around the time the ARTC's lease comes to an end. https://future.transport.nsw.gov.au/project-highlights/fast-rail

In the short term however the new regional rolling stock for non electrified intercity and regional services and the metro's take priority in.
simstrain
This reply to RTT is nothing but foamer nonsense. The actual situation regarding the NE line is far more complex starting with the original standard gauge line built to an appalling standard by the government of the day who had no real interest in rail. The money spent on the show pony Southern Aurora etc would have been better spent on better quality track.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

We weren't talking about the NE nswtrains but lets look at this.

Was the north east track quality horrendous before the ARTC got their hands on it?
Yes
Did the previous state body neglect the existing track?
Heck yes
What was the ARTC's response when the track was handed over to them?
Shove concrete sleepers in to the same slop that was their before.
What have they done since to fix these issues?
Nothing since there solution is the same as what they did before.
What was that solution?
Shove new concrete sleepers in to the exact same crap as before.
What does the ARTC always say when asked why they haven't properly replaced the formation to fix the problem?
We don't have money for that.....
How much money has the ARTC received to fix these issues along with other infrastruction along that section?
$501 million for the initial converstion and the wodonga bypass. $285 million for concrete sleepers in that project. Another $285 million to fix the north east in 2020 (https://www.artc.com.au/2020/06/05/work-powers-ahead-on-235-million-north-east-rail-line-upgrade/) but sure the ARTC are not to blame one bit.....
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

We weren't talking about the NE nswtrains but lets look at this.

Was the north east track quality horrendous before the ARTC got their hands on it?
Yes
Did the previous state body neglect the existing track?
Heck yes
What was the ARTC's response when the track was handed over to them?
Shove concrete sleepers in to the same slop that was their before.
What have they done since to fix these issues?
Nothing since there solution is the same as what they did before.
What was that solution?
Shove new concrete sleepers in to the exact same crap as before.
What does the ARTC always say when asked why they haven't properly replaced the formation to fix the problem?
We don't have money for that.....
How much money has the ARTC received to fix these issues along with other infrastruction along that section?
$501 million for the initial converstion and the wodonga bypass. $285 million for concrete sleepers in that project. Another $285 million to fix the north east in 2020 (https://www.artc.com.au/2020/06/05/work-powers-ahead-on-235-million-north-east-rail-line-upgrade/) but sure the ARTC are not to blame one bit.....
simstrain
So how do know the amounts you provide are anywhere near sufficient? ARTC does what it can with the paltry amounts drip fed to them. How much money was spent on the Hume Freeway which at most times you fire a cannon down it without hitting a single vehicle. What is the solution? Governments stop spending money on show pony projects to buy votes from the motoring public and spend it more strategically.

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