Adelaide Metro Extension

 
  82class Beginner

I have heard talk of extending the Gawler Line beyond Gawler Central to Concordia.
Has anyone have an information???
Is this a good idea???
why not extend further???

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  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Concordia would be a realistic possibility if the will was there to do it. The will to do it would have to be quite high though, as the track would need to be completely rebuilt, passenger grade safeworking introduced and possibly grade separation of Murray St.

Further into the Barossa Valley is a non-starter. There's plenty of opportunities for expanding Adelaide's population with brownfield development projects before you get to paving over the Barossa Valley.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
I have heard talk of extending the Gawler Line beyond Gawler Central to Concordia.
Has anyone have an information???
Is this a good idea???
why not extend further???
82class
Been talked about for 30 years or more.

Why not extend further????

Why not tell us what the population capture is - not names, numbers!
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
I read a DPTI report somewhere which was written about ten years ago that said that a gawler line extension eastward to concordia would be non economically viable when compared to the expenses required (2 new DDA compliant stations, rebuilt track with passenger safeworking, grade seperation of Murray Street, a passing loops to allow a 15 minute peak service on the longer single track section of line, etc). The report stated that connecting loop buses linking both the north and the east of Gawler to the current Gawler line station would deliver best bang for buck.
  82class Beginner

Yes i did read that. But in a 2019 Barossa Council EOI report they had clarified that with the expansion and growth in the area that rail would be viable.
  AdelaideRail75 Station Master

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
@82 class

Do you have a link to that Foi please?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

2019 is a good time for that report, leaving the council three years to pretend it didn’t happen before the next scheduled election.
  Yappo Station Master

I read a DPTI report somewhere which was written about ten years ago that said that a gawler line extension eastward to concordia would be non economically viable when compared to the expenses required (2 new DDA compliant stations, rebuilt track with passenger safeworking, grade seperation of Murray Street, a passing loops to allow a 15 minute peak service on the longer single track section of line, etc). The report stated that connecting loop buses linking both the north and the east of Gawler to the current Gawler line station would deliver best bang for buck.
Gayspie
One would think that grade separation at Murray st would not be required given the predominate 30 min frequency which is unlikely to change medium term. This ext seems like a no brainer given growth in the area and the push by Barossa Council to have rail back in the Barossa. Build this ext and later a further extension to Lyndoch which provides a gateway to the Barossa....

Also, there's big housing developments being built around Roseworthy north of Gawler which should justify a 2-3 station ext for a pax service on the old Freeling line between Gawler and Roseworthy given the forecasted pop growth https://www.barossaherald.com.au/story/5887506/24-billion-development-in-roseworthy

Build both in the next 5 years and then run alternate services to Concordia and Roseworthy. Unrealistic I know given the current govt and their road transport priorities.....
  Yappo Station Master

I was going to start a new thread, however this one seemed fit for purpose......

New lines or exts in the next 30 years?
The population of both Melb and Syd will increase to around 8m by 2050. Perth is forecast to grow from 2.1m today to at least 3.5m by 2050. These cities are investing all significant funds in new rail transport infrastructure. Adelaide will only grow from a current pop of about 1.4m to an estimation of between 1.8m-2m by 2050.
Note: obviously post COVID growth rates will obviously impact these forecasts.

75% of the pop growth in Adelaide will be in existing suburbs with higher density housing according to the 30 year plan. New greenfield growth will be limited to the Seaford to Aldinga corridor, around Mt Barker and around Gawler. Leaving aside light rail and the previous 30 year transport plan, a couple of additions to the suburban network appear likely (nothing is to be expected by the current govt);

1) Seaford 12km extension to Aldinga in City of Onk - IA project to be built in 10-15 years?
2) An underground CBD link - previously discussed

Other suggestions have been;
3) Concordia (as above),
4) Spur line to Roseworthy,
5) Mt Barker - reopening the line beyond Belair doesn't seem to be viable at all.

Using your crystal ball, what new lines & extensions do you foresee could be built by 2050?
(You could throw in your thoughts on the future of the Outer Harbour line too - electrification in the next 5 years?)
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

(You could throw in your thoughts on the future of the Outer Harbour line too - electrification in the next 5 years?)
Yappo
Electrification around 2030-33

The die was cast when the DEMU fleet got its life extension a couple of years ago.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Maybe Aldinga, maybe not. No others, as buses are "good enough".

We've yet to see the effects of "working from home".
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I was going to start a new thread, however this one seemed fit for purpose......

New lines or exts in the next 30 years?
The population of both Melb and Syd will increase to around 8m by 2050. Perth is forecast to grow from 2.1m today to at least 3.5m by 2050. These cities are investing all significant funds in new rail transport infrastructure. Adelaide will only grow from a current pop of about 1.4m to an estimation of between 1.8m-2m by 2050.
Note: obviously post COVID growth rates will obviously impact these forecasts.

75% of the pop growth in Adelaide will be in existing suburbs with higher density housing according to the 30 year plan. New greenfield growth will be limited to the Seaford to Aldinga corridor, around Mt Barker and around Gawler. Leaving aside light rail and the previous 30 year transport plan, a couple of additions to the suburban network appear likely (nothing is to be expected by the current govt);

1) Seaford 12km extension to Aldinga in City of Onk - IA project to be built in 10-15 years?
2) An underground CBD link - previously discussed

Other suggestions have been;
3) Concordia (as above),
4) Spur line to Roseworthy,
5) Mt Barker - reopening the line beyond Belair doesn't seem to be viable at all.

Using your crystal ball, what new lines & extensions do you foresee could be built by 2050?
(You could throw in your thoughts on the future of the Outer Harbour line too - electrification in the next 5 years?)
Yappo

1) Seaford extension which includes passing lanes to enable express running.

2) Complete sparking of OH/Grange lines and upgrade to 15min

3) Upgrade of the Belair line to spark and more frequent services

4) Return the Barossa Line to service for Interurban services

5) City tunnel connecting Adelaide station with Goodwood.

6) Nth Adelaide tram extension

7) Airport tram line
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
1) Seaford extension which includes passing lanes to enable express running.
RTT_Rules
Longer term I believe that some work has been done with reserving the corridor south of Seaford so that it can eventually head to Moana Beach. The opportunity for passing lanes has been missed at least between Brighton and Marion now that the Oaklands underpass has been constructed with no provision for extra tracks. I noticed when I was in Melbourne a few years ago that there's several places where you can see provision for extra tracks between Box Hill and Ringwood but no such redundancy here in South Australia.
2) Complete sparking of OH/Grange lines and upgrade to 15min
RTT_Rules
As justapassenger said, unlikely now that they've put new engines in the 3000's - they'll get another 15 years out of them.
3) Upgrade of the Belair line to spark and more frequent services
RTT_Rules
ARTC still won't let them do that despite the physically separate broad and standard gauge tracks. Can't see Belair being sparked at any time in the next 10-15 years for that reason, it would be more likely to go to standard gauge before that happens as a preclude to extending services back to Balhannah or Mt Barker.
4) Return the Barossa Line to service for Interurban service
RTT_Rules
No chance - there's too much local opposition to that simply because it would entail more development and they don't want that in their backyards there. I seem to recall maybe about 15 years ago there was a proposal to re-use the abandoned line to Kapunda as a 6 or 7 daily return to the city. Kapunda is a large town and already has a lot of infrastructure suited to further development but the proposal never got off the ground. As someone else mentioned Roseworthy as a spur would also be likely in my opinion just because its only 5km or so from Gawler but again there's a lot of inertia to be overcome - at least the rail corridor remains in situ (for now).
5) City tunnel connecting Adelaide station with Goodwood.
RTT_Rules
Too expensive for not-so-dense Adelaide.
6) Nth Adelaide tram extension
RTT_Rules
Yes, probably the strongest candidate out of the lot. Former Premier Weatherill has left the 400-metre stub terminated outside the Entertainment Center but couldn't go any further because of the dilapidated state of the bridge over the Torrens which would require many millions before it could take trams again (apparently). But O'Connell Street is crying out for a tram service - it would also help with increased resident and pedestrian access to the nearby Aquatic Center which is presently losing the Adelaide City Council millions every year.

It's a shame that nobody could talk Tom Playford into keeping the street-running service through the spine of the city when he was busy ripping everything up in the fifties - although I guess they just hated trams back then and wanted them gone.
7) Airport tram line
RTT_Rules
Current Premier Marshall isn't really a fan of trams and I think you'd be really relying on the private sector to stump up for that one - not impossible given they could put a premium on the fare to the airport as they presently do in Sydney.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
1) Seaford extension which includes passing lanes to enable express running.
RTT_Rules
Longer term I believe that some work has been done with reserving the corridor south of Seaford so that it can eventually head to Moana Beach. The opportunity for passing lanes has been missed at least between Brighton and Marion now that the Oaklands underpass has been constructed with no provision for extra tracks. I noticed when I was in Melbourne a few years ago that there's several places where you can see provision for extra tracks between Box Hill and Ringwood but no such redundancy here in South Australia.
2) Complete sparking of OH/Grange lines and upgrade to 15min
RTT_Rules
As justapassenger said, unlikely now that they've put new engines in the 3000's - they'll get another 15 years out of them.
3) Upgrade of the Belair line to spark and more frequent services
RTT_Rules
ARTC still won't let them do that despite the physically separate broad and standard gauge tracks. Can't see Belair being sparked at any time in the next 10-15 years for that reason, it would be more likely to go to standard gauge before that happens as a preclude to extending services back to Balhannah or Mt Barker.
4) Return the Barossa Line to service for Interurban service
RTT_Rules
No chance - there's too much local opposition to that simply because it would entail more development and they don't want that in their backyards there. I seem to recall maybe about 15 years ago there was a proposal to re-use the abandoned line to Kapunda as a 6 or 7 daily return to the city. Kapunda is a large town and already has a lot of infrastructure suited to further development but the proposal never got off the ground. As someone else mentioned Roseworthy as a spur would also be likely in my opinion just because its only 5km or so from Gawler but again there's a lot of inertia to be overcome - at least the rail corridor remains in situ (for now).
5) City tunnel connecting Adelaide station with Goodwood.
RTT_Rules
Too expensive for not-so-dense Adelaide.
6) Nth Adelaide tram extension
RTT_Rules
Yes, probably the strongest candidate out of the lot. Former Premier Weatherill has left the 400-metre stub terminated outside the Entertainment Center but couldn't go any further because of the dilapidated state of the bridge over the Torrens which would require many millions before it could take trams again (apparently). But O'Connell Street is crying out for a tram service - it would also help with increased resident and pedestrian access to the nearby Aquatic Center which is presently losing the Adelaide City Council millions every year.

It's a shame that nobody could talk Tom Playford into keeping the street-running service through the spine of the city when he was busy ripping everything up in the fifties - although I guess they just hated trams back then and wanted them gone.
7) Airport tram line
RTT_Rules
Current Premier Marshall isn't really a fan of trams and I think you'd be really relying on the private sector to stump up for that one - not impossible given they could put a premium on the fare to the airport as they presently do in Sydney.
"don_dunstan"



RP's editing page replying to others has been a mess of late , at least for me so I'll type this way.

1) You can see in Google the Seaford extension appears to be reserved

Passing lanes, maybe other options

2) Agree, wasn't indicating the OH would be done soon, end of life for the rolling stock.

3) ARTC opposition, I'd love to see how they justify this and even if this is real. There are plenty of examples in NSW and Vic of lines operating parallel and even in Qld the proposed Greenbank line will share the corridor.

When the rolling stock is end of life, we will see.

As for conversion to SG, I didn't mention before but I agree this is a real possibility and the only way a Mt Baker service will be made possible. The mess created at the Goodwood junction is more easily resolved by converting the Belair line to SG.

4) Barossa, I'm not convinced its all over. the so called anti-development brigade need to have a double take on which state they are living in.  Perhaps the Mt Baker extension could open their eyes a bit on what the service would bring and I doubt very much it involves leveling vineyards to grow houses.

5)  I wouldn't write the tunnel off just yet. Won't happen now, but in 10 years, lets see if a different political environment changes things

6)  Agree

7)  In 5 years time Adelaide will be the last mainland capital not to have an airport line, potentially Canberra and Coolingatta will have one first. Lets see the cry's for co-funding by the state who will be marketing itself on its very high RE uptake for a rail connection to the airport. The current Premier is a bit out dated in his thinking and will not survive 1 or 2 more elections.

I doubt a tram will be able to charge a premium more than a few bucks at best onto of the normal fare to get to the airport. Sydney airport line was built by the state and stations funded privately. Brisbane airport line is however 100% private funded beyond the junction. Considering the financial performance of both, I doubt the private sector will get involved again.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
7)  In 5 years time Adelaide will be the last mainland capital not to have an airport line, potentially Canberra and Coolingatta will have one first.
RTT_Rules
Darwin?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
7)  In 5 years time Adelaide will be the last mainland capital not to have an airport line, potentially Canberra and Coolingatta will have one first.
RTT_Rules
Darwin?
"railblogger"


I should have said State Capitals + Canberra + Coolingatta.

Darwin is probably one of the last airports of significance in the country to get a rail PT connection.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
On the Airport tram,

I assume the likely route is down Sir Don Bradman Drive, this also opens up the option Deacon Ave/Birdwood Ave as far as Marion Rd.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

On the Airport tram,

I assume the likely route is down Sir Don Bradman Drive, this also opens up the option Deacon Ave/Birdwood Ave as far as Marion Rd.
RTT_Rules
The planning studies to date have all written off Sir Donald Bradman Drive in favour of Henley Beach Road, with the Airport spur coming off at Airport Road.

It would make for superior connectivity at the city end (could be easily linked to North Tce tram routes) and also allow for a more useful 'mainline' route carrying on beyond the airport junction to Henley Beach instead of empty trams running to the sleepy backwater of West Beach.

The routes available to be used by a hypothetical Plympton branch would certainly depend on the configuration of the North-South Motorway interchange around the Mile End South area.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
On the Airport tram,

I assume the likely route is down Sir Don Bradman Drive, this also opens up the option Deacon Ave/Birdwood Ave as far as Marion Rd.
RTT_Rules
The planning studies to date have all written off Sir Donald Bradman Drive in favour of Henley Beach Road, with the Airport spur coming off at Airport Road.

It would make for superior connectivity at the city end (could be easily linked to North Tce tram routes) and also allow for a more useful 'mainline' route carrying on beyond the airport junction to Henley Beach instead of empty trams running to the sleepy backwater of West Beach.

The routes available to be used by a hypothetical Plympton branch would certainly depend on the configuration of the North-South Motorway interchange around the Mile End South area.
"justapassenger"


Thanks

- 6km of street running will be around $550m to get to the airport, 4km to Henley Beach another $350m

A further branch to Marion Road via the old rail alignment another $300m.

The Fed's will need to come to the party on this one.
  4BJ Chief Commissioner

Location: Backside almost trackside at Hawthorn near Mitcham
My understanding is that Airport Road was built to provide road and possibly tram access to the airport.  Trams would have used the median strip.  The decision, in 1953, to do away with the trams put paid to trams going to the airport.
  Yappo Station Master

On the Airport tram,

I assume the likely route is down Sir Don Bradman Drive, this also opens up the option Deacon Ave/Birdwood Ave as far as Marion Rd.
The planning studies to date have all written off Sir Donald Bradman Drive in favour of Henley Beach Road, with the Airport spur coming off at Airport Road.

It would make for superior connectivity at the city end (could be easily linked to North Tce tram routes) and also allow for a more useful 'mainline' route carrying on beyond the airport junction to Henley Beach instead of empty trams running to the sleepy backwater of West Beach.

The routes available to be used by a hypothetical Plympton branch would certainly depend on the configuration of the North-South Motorway interchange around the Mile End South area.
Thanks

- 6km of street running will be around $550m to get to the airport, 4km to Henley Beach another $350m

A further branch to Marion Road via the old rail alignment another $300m.

The Fed's will need to come to the party on this one.
RTT_Rules
Year ago before Coogdon drv was completed, I always thought that it would have been easy to use the old Holdfast alignment from Mile End at grade as an airport line which then tunneled (cut & cover) the 1.75km under Richmond rd to reach the Airport land perimeter with the station box located adjacent to the east side of the Terminal.

That's only 2.5km underground in total. Build stations at Mile End South near Hisense/Sth rd and Richmond at Marion rd. Essentially, it would be a short airport line: Adelaide-Mile End-Mile End South-Richmond-Airport for around a 12 min trip time. Too late for that now given all that has been built along old Holdfast alignment.
  Yappo Station Master

1) Seaford extension which includes passing lanes to enable express running.
Longer term I believe that some work has been done with reserving the corridor south of Seaford so that it can eventually head to Moana Beach. The opportunity for passing lanes has been missed at least between Brighton and Marion now that the Oaklands underpass has been constructed with no provision for extra tracks. I noticed when I was in Melbourne a few years ago that there's several places where you can see provision for extra tracks between Box Hill and Ringwood but no such redundancy here in South Australia.
don_dunstan
Most of the Aldinga extension is already reserved and the 2 docs I linked clearly show the corridor. As RTT said you can see it on google too but the City of Onk Road Network Plan 2016-21 also displays the indicative corridor on page 42...or just download the Transport map section.

The ext needs to be an IA project so the feds pick up at least 60-70% the funding (seat of Mayo). Then a decent bus link to Victor could be provided via Willunga and VH rd.

Assuming this is built in the 10-20 year period, what I then wonder is if the last 6-7km to Sellicks would then be warranted in 30-40 years once there are many more residents in the area? No corridor reserved for that though so it would be very unlikely.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
My understanding is that Airport Road was built to provide road and possibly tram access to the airport.  Trams would have used the median strip.  The decision, in 1953, to do away with the trams put paid to trams going to the airport.
4BJ
Yeah it's lovely and wide isn't it, you'd have to imagine that it was designed with that in mind.

I believe that the tram line down Sir Donald Bradman/Burbridge Road got as far as Marion Road before turning South - that could have been another option had Playford not decided to rip up the whole network.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
1) Seaford extension which includes passing lanes to enable express running.
Longer term I believe that some work has been done with reserving the corridor south of Seaford so that it can eventually head to Moana Beach. The opportunity for passing lanes has been missed at least between Brighton and Marion now that the Oaklands underpass has been constructed with no provision for extra tracks. I noticed when I was in Melbourne a few years ago that there's several places where you can see provision for extra tracks between Box Hill and Ringwood but no such redundancy here in South Australia.
don_dunstan
Most of the Aldinga extension is already reserved and the 2 docs I linked clearly show the corridor. As RTT said you can see it on google too but the City of Onk Road Network Plan 2016-21 also displays the indicative corridor on page 42...or just download the Transport map section.

The ext needs to be an IA project so the feds pick up at least 60-70% the funding (seat of Mayo). Then a decent bus link to Victor could be provided via Willunga and VH rd.

Assuming this is built in the 10-20 year period, what I then wonder is if the last 6-7km to Sellicks would then be warranted in 30-40 years once there are many more residents in the area? No corridor reserved for that though so it would be very unlikely.
"Yappo"


Have to wonder how much of a priority this extension is but also it would be reasonably low cost.

The section to Seaford rise looks easy up under Pedler Creek with only a major underpass at Griffiths Drive, so potentially you could perhaps convince the state govt to fund a low cost 2.4km 1 station extension in say 10 years.

The issue with the Seaford line is however the length and number of station, the line needs to move to two tier operation.
One of two options
1) All inner stations including Ascot Park put on Tonsley trains
2) Seaford limited exprerss to here and all south

OR
a third tier with trains operating all to Brighton and Seaford running limited express to Brighton then all south and thus limit Seaford trains to around 16 stopping stations, Brighton trains being similar. You can do this with trains leaving Adelaide 10min apart  Basically Seaford followed 2-3min later by Brighton then 10min later Seaford.

Aldinga is a long way south and likely the furthest south the line will reach this century, too many priorities to the north.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
My understanding is that Airport Road was built to provide road and possibly tram access to the airport.  Trams would have used the median strip.  The decision, in 1953, to do away with the trams put paid to trams going to the airport.
4BJ
Yeah it's lovely and wide isn't it, you'd have to imagine that it was designed with that in mind.

I believe that the tram line down Sir Donald Bradman/Burbridge Road got as far as Marion Road before turning South - that could have been another option had Playford not decided to rip up the whole network.
"don_dunstan"


Airport opened in 1955, trams closed in 1958, you'd have to think it wasn't at least in their mind set or at least planning for future growth and road widening.

Edit: Was Airport road actually built then?

Non-bus transport makes a very minor appearance in the airport master plan, page 18, 10.10.1 saying they have "Adelaide Airport has made provision for increased public transport, by reserving land for a potential high capacity public transport corridor along Sir Richard Williams Avenue."

I read this as to be a tram "of sorts" station and likely ROW provision.

https://www.adelaideairport.com.au/corporate/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/adelaide-airport-preliminary-draft-master-plan-2019-chapter-10.pdf

Having caught the tram from Tallinn (Estonia) City Centre to the airport, I see alot of parallels between the two. Tallinn's tram service is a basic X network and was very dated. EU has thrown some money at them to save it and upgrade parts of it. Someone has also given them some money to fund an extension off one of the longer branches about 1-2km or so to the airport and get modern rolling stock. So after spending 30min going along what is clearly a +50 years old designed route on the road, you then leave the road to a new everything dedicated route to the airport and you walk about 5m undercover from tram to terminal door.  

Like Tallinn I don't see Adelaide Airport traffic supporting heavy rail or other airport only focused services, just an extension of an existing commuter service and has potential for Fed funding like Melbourne and Perth.

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