High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMT) Order

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Very helpful Don. Did you also advise that the QLD trains that were ordered by the LNP from the Chinese and have been debacle ever since?

Did you also advise that the current QLD government has an election commitment to build new trains at Maryborough in QLD?

Big J
Those trains were from India and not China.

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  Djebel Junior Train Controller

So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
  Goose13 Station Master

Location: Having a sook about Southern cross's western wall
So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
Djebel
Could well be wrong here but has there explicitly been issues with 7 carriages? Thought most of the issues where electrical in nature and would have occurred irrespective of the number of carriages.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
Could well be wrong here but has there explicitly been issues with 7 carriages? Thought most of the issues where electrical in nature and would have occurred irrespective of the number of carriages.
Goose13
From memory they're designed to be run on the existing system with seven carriages, the software just needs to know that's the case so the driver stops in exactly the right place and the doors don't open to a spot with no platform present. I believe the plan is that eventually the Pakenham/Cranbourne/Sunbury lines will be extended to cope with nine carriages and the extra two will be slotted in but in the meantime they're going to run with seven with the door-limiting software on board.
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
Could well be wrong here but has there explicitly been issues with 7 carriages? Thought most of the issues where electrical in nature and would have occurred irrespective of the number of carriages.
From memory they're designed to be run on the existing system with seven carriages, the software just needs to know that's the case so the driver stops in exactly the right place and the doors don't open to a spot with no platform present. I believe the plan is that eventually the Pakenham/Cranbourne/Sunbury lines will be extended to cope with nine carriages and the extra two will be slotted in but in the meantime they're going to run with seven with the door-limiting software on board.
don_dunstan
The door overhang, signals in the City Loop needing to be moved, etc. were what I was referring to.  Why not just use 6 carriages and avoid all these issues?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
Djebel
the clue is in the name of the project
High Capacity Metro Trains.

7 carriages carry more pax than 6.

Those 7 carriages already do fit on the Dandenong line
EXCEPT
the City Loop platforms are a bit short.
Hence the signals have been moved a couple of metres into the tunnel so the drivers nose can poke in.

A whole thread about the plan to run the Dandenong loop anti-clockwise all day, to make that alteration work for HCMT.
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11400462.htm

Hence the new trains are now waiting on a re-vamp of the Metro Time Table - Jan/Feb is the rumour.

When the Metro tunnel is opened for Dandenong/Sunbury, then the planned 10 carriage trains can run.
All the new stations on the line have provision for platform extension.

cheers
John
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Thanks @justarider.  I have read the Caulfield anti-clockwise thread; it just seems an awful lot of stuffing about for a couple of years before MM1 opens.  And all to cram on some extra passengers.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
the clue is in the name of the project
High Capacity Metro Trains.

7 carriages carry more pax than 6.

Those 7 carriages already do fit on the Dandenong line
EXCEPT
the City Loop platforms are a bit short.
Hence the signals have been moved a couple of metres into the tunnel so the drivers nose can poke in.

A whole thread about the plan to run the Dandenong loop anti-clockwise all day, to make that alteration work for HCMT.
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11400462.htm

Hence the new trains are now waiting on a re-vamp of the Metro Time Table - Jan/Feb is the rumour.

When the Metro tunnel is opened for Dandenong/Sunbury, then the planned 10 carriage trains can run.
All the new stations on the line have provision for platform extension.

cheers
John
justarider
Thanks for clearing that up - is what I said about one door remaining closed at normal platforms correct? Just wondering.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
the clue is in the name of the project
High Capacity Metro Trains.

7 carriages carry more pax than 6.

Those 7 carriages already do fit on the Dandenong line............
"justarider"
Thanks for clearing that up - is what I said about one door remaining closed at normal platforms correct? Just wondering.
"don_dunstan"
don't think so. Just the trailing driver door, which isn't used anyway.
cheers
John
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Thanks Op Kronos

Interesting that, with 23 delivered, Evolution Rail are getting close to the target of having 37 units available for provisional acceptance by August 2nd next year. With set 24 not far off delivery, that would leave 14 (since I think we can exclude set 1 for now) to be delivered in roughly 8 months. They have been delivering at roughly that rate since April this year, even allowing for Covid issues. If they can meet that then they should be able to deliver as per the contract, which is surprising, considering the delays after the stuff up with set 1.


Neil
ngarner
With the news that #22 has been delivered, that changes the delivery schedule to 13 in the same time frame. IMHO, that makes it more likely that Evolution will make the schedule, unless a serious disruption occurs.

Neil
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Anthony Albanese was tweeting out about Australian trains being made in Australia the other day - I helpfully pointed out to him that we have Labor state governments in VIC and QLD that bought their new trains from China and India respectively but I didn't hear back from him.
Very helpful Don. Did you also advise that the QLD trains that were ordered by the LNP from the Chinese and have been debacle ever since?
So Anastacia Palasczuck has had a whole five years to cancel the contract but didn't do a thing?
Did you also advise that the current QLD government has an election commitment to build new trains at Maryborough in QLD?
And yet they haven't signed any contracts or actually done anything about it?
don_dunstan

An incoming government very, very rarely cancels projects entered into by a previous government, otherwise business has no guarantee of project continuity after a change of government.

A perfect example was when J Kennett won the election in 1992 after J Kirner had signed the contract for the new Sprinter rail cars...even though several rail lines were closed to passenger service a few months later, the contract for the Sprinters remained.

Annastacia only won the election officially two weeks ago.

Mike.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
the clue is in the name of the project
High Capacity Metro Trains.

7 carriages carry more pax than 6.

Those 7 carriages already do fit on the Dandenong line
EXCEPT
the City Loop platforms are a bit short.
Hence the signals have been moved a couple of metres into the tunnel so the drivers nose can poke in.

A whole thread about the plan to run the Dandenong loop anti-clockwise all day, to make that alteration work for HCMT.
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11400462.htm

Hence the new trains are now waiting on a re-vamp of the Metro Time Table - Jan/Feb is the rumour.

When the Metro tunnel is opened for Dandenong/Sunbury, then the planned 10 carriage trains can run.
All the new stations on the line have provision for platform extension.

cheers
John
Thanks for clearing that up - is what I said about one door remaining closed at normal platforms correct? Just wondering.
don_dunstan
All the platform extensions needed on the Cranbourne, Pakenham and Sunbury lines have been completed.

Just need to have enough HCMTs accredited for service, and enough drivers trained for them so that a proper schedule can be implemented. Remember they will be kept at Pakenham East, so it isn't quite the same as at the moment where you can bring the next Comeng, Siemens or whatever out of the stabling yard, their empty movements needs a little extra scheduling until they take over the whole Dandenong corridor.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
the clue is in the name of the project
High Capacity Metro Trains.

7 carriages carry more pax than 6.

Those 7 carriages already do fit on the Dandenong line
EXCEPT
the City Loop platforms are a bit short.
Hence the signals have been moved a couple of metres into the tunnel so the drivers nose can poke in.

A whole thread about the plan to run the Dandenong loop anti-clockwise all day, to make that alteration work for HCMT.
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11400462.htm

Hence the new trains are now waiting on a re-vamp of the Metro Time Table - Jan/Feb is the rumour.

When the Metro tunnel is opened for Dandenong/Sunbury, then the planned 10 carriage trains can run.
All the new stations on the line have provision for platform extension.

cheers
John
justarider
When Metro 1 opens 10 car trains cannot operate till platforms along the entire route outside of Metro 1 are extended for 10 cars, and secondly a further upgrade of power supplies to allow for 10 car trains and at the same time allowing for greater train throughput per hour than the initial 18 - 20 tph on Metro 1 opening.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Anthony Albanese was tweeting out about Australian trains being made in Australia the other day - I helpfully pointed out to him that we have Labor state governments in VIC and QLD that bought their new trains from China and India respectively but I didn't hear back from him.
Very helpful Don. Did you also advise that the QLD trains that were ordered by the LNP from the Chinese and have been debacle ever since?
So Anastacia Palasczuck has had a whole five years to cancel the contract but didn't do a thing?
Did you also advise that the current QLD government has an election commitment to build new trains at Maryborough in QLD?
And yet they haven't signed any contracts or actually done anything about it?

An incoming government very, very rarely cancels projects entered into by a previous government, otherwise business has no guarantee of project continuity after a change of government.

A perfect example was when J Kennett won the election in 1992 after J Kirner had signed the contract for the new Sprinter rail cars...even though several rail lines were closed to passenger service a few months later, the contract for the Sprinters remained.

Annastacia only won the election officially two weeks ago.

Mike.
The Vinelander
This is the third (count 'em) election she's won.

She's had plenty of legal opportunities to cancel the contract, Bombardier did not deliver trains that were legally up to standard and they had to be modified at Maryborough at great expense to the Queensland taxpayer: Queensland Times;

When they were ordered, the then Government crowed about the "New Generation Rollingstock" (NGR) trains being half the price of similar designs.

But the cheap price has brought with it multiple problems including failing air conditioning, issues with the braking and, most damningly, a botched procurement process that saw the Government settle on a design that doesn't meet minimum legal standards, according to The Courier Mail.

The bodge job is so dodge, the trains sport disabled accessible toilets that wheelchairs can't properly fit into.

The Indian-built fleet of 75 trains from Canadian manufacturing giant Bombardier, of which nine have been delivered, could be banned from working on the network.

There's been lots of opportunities for the Queensland government to move the building of those trains back to Queensland but they've squibbed every single one of them.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

So why start with 7 carriages?  If they have to add a few extra carriages anyway when MM1 opens then why not just run 6 cars in the interim and avoid all the hassle 7 carruages has caused?
the clue is in the name of the project
High Capacity Metro Trains.

7 carriages carry more pax than 6.

Those 7 carriages already do fit on the Dandenong line
EXCEPT
the City Loop platforms are a bit short.
Hence the signals have been moved a couple of metres into the tunnel so the drivers nose can poke in.

A whole thread about the plan to run the Dandenong loop anti-clockwise all day, to make that alteration work for HCMT.
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11400462.htm

Hence the new trains are now waiting on a re-vamp of the Metro Time Table - Jan/Feb is the rumour.

When the Metro tunnel is opened for Dandenong/Sunbury, then the planned 10 carriage trains can run.
All the new stations on the line have provision for platform extension.

cheers
John
Thanks for clearing that up - is what I said about one door remaining closed at normal platforms correct? Just wondering.
All the platform extensions needed on the Cranbourne, Pakenham and Sunbury lines have been completed.

Just need to have enough HCMTs accredited for service, and enough drivers trained for them so that a proper schedule can be implemented. Remember they will be kept at Pakenham East, so it isn't quite the same as at the moment where you can bring the next Comeng, Siemens or whatever out of the stabling yard, their empty movements needs a little extra scheduling until they take over the whole Dandenong corridor.
Not quite yet!
Platform extensions have been completed on the Dandenong group. They are still rolling out along Sunbury Line. Footscray, M Footscray, W Footscray and Tottenham have been completed so far. Slab has been laid at Sunshine. Albion through to Sunbury has yet to be constructed yet.

HCMTS have yet to receive accreditation, Metro and DoT better hurry up and get the rubber stamp if the units are to enter service on February as mooted.

With at least 15 units ready to enter service, they will be taking up a fair amount of the sets currently used to operate Dandenong. The total 65 units is based on Sunbury and Airport through running at a 2.5 minute peak headway, 24TPH. Not the current 15TPH that Dandenong has during peaks.

Lockie
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

Train Tracker Facebook rumour mill suggests that the first HCMT revenue service will depart Pakenham East 1634 (4.34pm) UP on 20/12/2020. Set 07 is expected to conduct the first service (subject to change). Multiple people have been telling about this which increases its legitimacy.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Train Tracker Facebook rumour mill suggests that the first HCMT revenue service will depart Pakenham East 1634 (4.34pm) UP on 20/12/2020. Set 07 is expected to conduct the first service (subject to change). Multiple people have been telling about this which increases its legitimacy.
Jordy33
This would be a nice Christmas present for the government. But near on IMPOSSIBLE as this service would be unable to run via the loop to return to Pakenham. Will the service terminate at FSS and run empty back to Pakenham or in true Metro fashion, bypass the loop?

The only way the government could squeeze a HCMT into service before the January TT change would be to confine it to run only in the AM before the loop switches direction.

If all the towns folk are getting the rumour from the same mill, legitimacy it does not have.

Saying all of that is does remind me of a lone Xtrap out at Frankston so a premier could get a photo to claim they had done something. Apparently the good folk of the sand-belt seats wanted more.

Lockie
  route14 Chief Commissioner

What do they do with the "wrong" loop direction?
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Can't they test run them on the Lilydale and Belgrave lines until the rest of the network is ready? We were running the one and only 7-car 4D+Comeng set nearly 30 years ago. I think the VR were even running 8-car Harrises way before that, although 7-car sets were by far the most common (although a Harris carriage was significantly shorter than the newer trains, so a 7-car set was similar in length to a 6-car Hitachi/Comeng).
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Ringwood doesn't have CBTC.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Is it likely these trains might be used for the Airport Line or the DRL or both?

Could be good for capacity.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

According to the plan, yes for the airport.  I'm not quite sure what DRL is.
  712M Chief Commissioner

Train Tracker Facebook rumour mill suggests that the first HCMT revenue service will depart Pakenham East 1634 (4.34pm) UP on 20/12/2020. Set 07 is expected to conduct the first service (subject to change). Multiple people have been telling about this which increases its legitimacy.
This would be a nice Christmas present for the government. But near on IMPOSSIBLE as this service would be unable to run via the loop to return to Pakenham. Will the service terminate at FSS and run empty back to Pakenham or in true Metro fashion, bypass the loop?

The only way the government could squeeze a HCMT into service before the January TT change would be to confine it to run only in the AM before the loop switches direction.
Lockie91
20/12/20 is a Sunday, where the Caulfield Loop already runs anti-clockwise all day. So therefore theoretically a HCMT could fill in a Saturday or Sunday roster before the 31/1/21 timetable change - pending their accreditation of course.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

That makes sense.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

I agree that it makes good sense - get the HCMTs started on weekends, then start ramping up HCMT services. I don’t think they would go straight into peak hour passenger operations.

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