Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I do understand how it works in Sydney but remember the Metro system here is driverless.

Will the SRL be a different gauge?
NSWGR8022
Yeah it's likely the SRL will be semi driverless or full driverless system.

SRL gauge has not been confirmed yet.

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  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
I do understand how it works in Sydney but remember the Metro system here is driverless.

Will the SRL be a different gauge?
Yeah it's likely the SRL will be semi driverless or full driverless system.

SRL gauge has not been confirmed yet.
True Believers

I will look forward to seeing how they establish the maintenance.  I recall reading the london Underground started as an underground system and then morphed into an above ground system with connections and extensions.  Could this also happen in Melbourne maybe serving the outer suburban areas not currrently blessed with rail services?

Just an idea.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

If they decide to use Broad Gauge then it wouldn’t be out of the question that they could have an access tunnel to Frankston Line at Southland, but I doubt this would be very useful as it’s likely SRL would have a fully dedicated full maintenance facility. Access to the existing network however could make it easier to transfer sets from Bombardier or Alstom (example if they get the train contract).

IMO they should take this opportunity to make a true world standard metro - modern power (not 1500V) and standard gauge.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
When considering the metro 2 tunnel proposal and the suburban rail loop I have questions.

For SRL how does the rolling stock get into and out of the current system onto the SRL system in morning and evenings?

Where will the rolling stock be stored and serviced?  Could the servicing be done outside of the SRL network maybe at a fringe service centre or maybe Dynon?

how will the SRL connect to the current tracks in Melbourne?

SRL network and existing train network are separate networks. From your username, you'd be familiar how Metro and Sydney trains also run separately.

The new rolling-stock will be stored and serviced at a new facility between Cheltenham and Clayton. No would not be done at Dynon, likely built along it's route, as I said most likely candidate is btw Cheltenham and Clayton, where there are currently dumpsites and industrial area there.

The SRL will not connect to the current tracks in Melbourne, that has been ruled out months ago. Separate tracks, separate system, just like Sydney Metro is separate from Sydney Trains, it's no different here with SRL. SRL will be a metro operated system.
True Believers
Beg to differ. From all public statements so far, pretty clear that MARL and SRL will share the Airport to Sunshine part.

Nothing radical about that but does mean a couple of things.
 Rolling stock both match the platform screen doors at Airport.
 Same voltage
 Same guage ( why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to put a single piece of SG line in amongst the rest of Metro ?)

SRL is expected to be only 3-4 cars in length. MARL 7or10 Hcmt.

Any of the existing stock (Comeng, Seimens, Xtrap, Hcmt) could do SRL.
Personal pick is a 4 car Hcmt, the others would be getting long in the tooth and need modernised controls.

Stabling & Service will be needed at both the west and east ends. Maybe new at Heatherton ; maybe existing (Calder, Wyndham Vale, Westall, Pakenham East), that would defintely be influenced by which rolling stock chosen.
Wherever , the trains need to come out of the tunnel somewhere for that service.

PS
Since the SRL is mostly tunnel, there is no need to take all trains at the end of day to a secure lock up.
Some of those last runs can be parked along the way, ready to reccomence next morning. For golfers, think shotgun start.

cheers
John
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
SRL released a video, which they carefully blurred almost everything that gave any indication of routes, etc but someone has paused it and worked out the (probable) location of the depot; north side of Kinsgston Rd opposite the Kingston Heath golf course. If you follow the link, the information starts from the fourth post onward

SRL depot

Neil
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
as I said most likely candidate is btw Cheltenham and Clayton, where there are currently dumpsites and industrial area there.
True Believers
That site looks good in theory. Approx 2000m X 600m. Comparable with the Pakenham East site.

Big problem, there is a wacking great freeway running through the middle.

It will be intesting to see if they could build anything on those sands & fill, let alone tunnel through it.

cheers
John
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Beg to differ. From all public statements so far, pretty clear that MARL and SRL will share the Airport to Sunshine part.
justarider

SRL will be segregated from Cheltenham to the Airport, the government would probably either go for two options, ditch the Airport-Sunshine corridor, the U-turn at Sunshine is an after-thought, or ditch the whole western leg of the SRL.

SRL trains are going to run every few minutes, not sure why they'd suddenly have to converge at the Airport, it would probably take a different route altogether to avoid the silly turn-around at Sunshine.

It would also make no sense dividing the SRL in sections in the west either since the eastern leg is fully connected without any changes.

The problem is stages 2-4 are not confirmed, public statements about it are not going to be confirmation of the final solution. I remember public statements about the express tunnels for the Airport rail link and then ditched later when they found a better solution.

The better solution is keeping the SRL separate from the existing network, therefore can use the latest technologies and not be slowed down by the legacy system. The airport rail link is using the same tech as the metro tunnel, which means it will integrate fine, but when you include the SRL, then the SRL would need the same HCMT rolling stock which is not indicated, as well as it must using broad gauge, etc, etc. There would be quite a bit of restrictions placed on the SRL since the train door spacing must be the same as the HCMT fleets and other factors.

Why complicate things when you can start the network from scratch? I doubt the SRL can be made viable through the North anyways? I think they should ditch some of the north and western sections, they make no sense economically.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Beg to differ. From all public statements so far, pretty clear that MARL and SRL will share the Airport to Sunshine part.

Why complicate things when you can start the network from scratch? I doubt the SRL can be made viable through the North anyways? I think they should ditch some of the north and western sections, they make no sense economically.
True Believers

The SRL has to take in far more of the western suburbs to be effective, the current route from the airport to Sunshine makes zero sense and will turn Sunshine into a choke point. If it ran through Caroline Springs and onto Watergardens and then to the airport, it becomes a viable alternative for commuters that presently use the Ring Road.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Beg to differ. From all public statements so far, pretty clear that MARL and SRL will share the Airport to Sunshine part.

Why complicate things when you can start the network from scratch? I doubt the SRL can be made viable through the North anyways? I think they should ditch some of the north and western sections, they make no sense economically.

The SRL has to take in far more of the western suburbs to be effective, the current route from the airport to Sunshine makes zero sense and will turn Sunshine into a choke point. If it ran through Caroline Springs and onto Watergardens and then to the airport, it becomes a viable alternative for commuters that presently use the Ring Road.
chomper
Perhaps that's a possible route, the only issue is Caroline springs and Watergardens are probably not ideal locations until they have better infrastructure established such as universities, jobs and hospitals. It kinda needs a major job hub as well as good local connections.

I think they should ditch most of the north and western sections in favor of other projects. I would only extend the suburban rail loop as far as from Box-hill to Reservoir. Connects the other university and Doncaster.

Metro tunnel 2 is more favorable to start than the other sections of the SRL, SRL stage 1 and partial section of stage 2 is really that's needed for now.

I don't know when they could make the other sections effective unless there were seriously developing the hubs inwards instead expanding outwards with suburban sprawl.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Perhaps that's a possible route, the only issue is Caroline springs and Watergardens are probably not ideal locations until they have better infrastructure established such as universities, jobs and hospitals. It kinda needs a major job hub as well as good local connections.

I think they should ditch most of the north and western sections in favor of other projects. I would only extend the suburban rail loop as far as from Box-hill to Reservoir. Connects the other university and Doncaster.

Metro tunnel 2 is more favorable to start than the other sections of the SRL, SRL stage 1 and partial section of stage 2 is really that's needed for now.

I don't know when they could make the other sections effective unless there were seriously developing the hubs inwards instead expanding outwards with suburban sprawl.
True Believers
1. By the time the western section is built, it will be infilled. The timeline for that is 2050, not 2030. Need to reserve land corridor now if possible to avoid expensive tunneling

2. Should be extended as far as the airport if they cut it short. That gives people in the northern suburbs a direct connection without having to go via the CBD to get to Airport/Deakin/Monash
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Perhaps that's a possible route, the only issue is Caroline springs and Watergardens are probably not ideal locations until they have better infrastructure established such as universities, jobs and hospitals. It kinda needs a major job hub as well as good local connections.

I think they should ditch most of the north and western sections in favor of other projects. I would only extend the suburban rail loop as far as from Box-hill to Reservoir. Connects the other university and Doncaster.

Metro tunnel 2 is more favorable to start than the other sections of the SRL, SRL stage 1 and partial section of stage 2 is really that's needed for now.

I don't know when they could make the other sections effective unless there were seriously developing the hubs inwards instead expanding outwards with suburban sprawl.
1. By the time the western section is built, it will be infilled. The timeline for that is 2050, not 2030. Need to reserve land corridor now if possible to avoid expensive tunneling

2. Should be extended as far as the airport if they cut it short. That gives people in the northern suburbs a direct connection without having to go via the CBD to get to Airport/Deakin/Monash
John.Z
It would also allow the government to designate where the activity centres will be, rather than having to build lines to suit haphazard developments, like they have had to do on the eastern side of the SRL.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Monash NEIC, La Trobe NEIC -> SRL Phases 1 and 2 respectively.
Sunshine NEIC -> MARL.

The activity centres have been "designated" for quite a few years now.

edit: https://vpa.vic.gov.au/urban-renewal/national-employment-clusters/
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Perhaps that's a possible route, the only issue is Caroline springs and Watergardens are probably not ideal locations until they have better infrastructure established such as universities, jobs and hospitals. It kinda needs a major job hub as well as good local connections.

I think they should ditch most of the north and western sections in favor of other projects. I would only extend the suburban rail loop as far as from Box-hill to Reservoir. Connects the other university and Doncaster.

Metro tunnel 2 is more favorable to start than the other sections of the SRL, SRL stage 1 and partial section of stage 2 is really that's needed for now.

I don't know when they could make the other sections effective unless there were seriously developing the hubs inwards instead expanding outwards with suburban sprawl.
1. By the time the western section is built, it will be infilled. The timeline for that is 2050, not 2030. Need to reserve land corridor now if possible to avoid expensive tunneling

2. Should be extended as far as the airport if they cut it short. That gives people in the northern suburbs a direct connection without having to go via the CBD to get to Airport/Deakin/Monash
John.Z
Infilled with what, suburban homes or apartments and a central hub for jobs and other infrastructure.

It's not a matter of time, it's a matter when the planning is changed to stop sprawling outwards and start to building inwards. At the current time, it hasn't changed for decades, they keep further building outwards until the infrastructure is so spread out you need a car.

The success for SRL is the way the urban planning is formed in the developing suburbs, this will not change very fast in outer suburban areas, unlike the inner suburbs where there is change starting to happen.

The further out from the ring of the line, the less likely you'd get any benefit out of it, the only people that miss out by cutting it short at Reservoir, are Faulkner and Broadmeadows. Deakin and Monash are probably easier to get to cross-city wise when you out as far as Broadmeadows.

As for the Airport, it would be easy to interchange with MM1, not much significant time saving when considering construction costs.

I would argue there are more important projects that would improve greatly on the network before even considering completing the loop, as shown in the load AM patronage diagram from the SRL files, the patronage is minimal past Reservoir. I'm sure in the future it may have merit, but it would definitely be post 2050.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Monash NEIC, La Trobe NEIC -> SRL Phases 1 and 2 respectively.
Sunshine NEIC -> MARL.

The activity centres have been "designated" for quite a few years now.

edit: https://vpa.vic.gov.au/urban-renewal/national-employment-clusters/
tayser
Yes Sunshine is a NEIC, but so is Caulfield and Footscray.

The SRL doesn't need to link every single activity centre (like Chadstone SC), it needs to provide a consistent radius around the CBD to serve the needs of people who need to travel across the city.

The MARL via Metro Tunnel covers Sunshine to Airport, so routing the SRL down that way not only doubles that service (hence unnecessary), but also severely limits its usefulness to those who live in the western suburbs further out.

There's no reason why Watergardens or Tarneit couldn't be designated as an activity centre, it's certainly building quickly towards being one, a similar trajectory to Glen Waverley but 60 years later.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
as I said most likely candidate is btw Cheltenham and Clayton, where there are currently dumpsites and industrial area there.
That site looks good in theory. Approx 2000m X 600m. Comparable with the Pakenham East site.

Big problem, there is a wacking great freeway running through the middle.

It will be intesting to see if they could build anything on those sands & fill, let alone tunnel through it.

cheers
John
justarider

Aren't there some old Harris carriages still sitting in one of the landfill sites out that way?  Be funny if they had to be exhumed due to the proposed tunnel alignment.

Ross
  bobwiser Beginner

Monash NEIC, La Trobe NEIC -> SRL Phases 1 and 2 respectively.
Sunshine NEIC -> MARL.

The activity centres have been "designated" for quite a few years now.

edit: https://vpa.vic.gov.au/urban-renewal/national-employment-clusters/
Yes Sunshine is a NEIC, but so is Caulfield and Footscray.

John.Z
No they're not... https://www.planmelbourne.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/376660/Map_2_Melbourne_2050_plan.pdf
  Peter Spyker Train Controller

The SRL will not connect to the current tracks in Melbourne, that has been ruled out months ago. Separate tracks, separate system, just like Sydney Metro is separate from Sydney Trains, it's no different here with SRL. SRL will be a metro operated system.
Beg to differ. From all public statements so far, pretty clear that MARL and SRL will share the Airport to Sunshine part.

Nothing radical about that but does mean a couple of things.
 Rolling stock both match the platform screen doors at Airport.
 Same voltage
 Same guage ( why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to put a single piece of SG line in amongst the rest of Metro ?)
justarider
It's clear that they will share an alignment, but I don't think that there has been any indication that they'll share the same tracks, has there?

It's always looked to me like they'd have completely separate tracks for city-to-airport trains than they would for the SRL, and this would enable smaller, lighter vehicles for the SRL, with the possibility of a completely different gauge.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The SRL will not connect to the current tracks in Melbourne, that has been ruled out months ago. Separate tracks, separate system, just like Sydney Metro is separate from Sydney Trains, it's no different here with SRL. SRL will be a metro operated system.
Beg to differ. From all public statements so far, pretty clear that MARL and SRL will share the Airport to Sunshine part.

Nothing radical about that but does mean a couple of things.
 Rolling stock both match the platform screen doors at Airport.
 Same voltage
 Same guage ( why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to put a single piece of SG line in amongst the rest of Metro ?)
It's clear that they will share an alignment, but I don't think that there has been any indication that they'll share the same tracks, has there?

It's always looked to me like they'd have completely separate tracks for city-to-airport trains than they would for the SRL, and this would enable smaller, lighter vehicles for the SRL, with the possibility of a completely different gauge.
Peter Spyker
Yer sure, 6 tracks down the Albion. Each with a max 6tph. How many $Bill does that waste ?

A 3-4 car standard suburban train easily qualifies as smaller and lighter (and cheaper).
Do you seriously suggest SRL stock will be be squeezy, narrow like 19th century undergrounds. Already enough complaints about Metro today.

As for guage, what for? Just to be incompatible with all other lines, including getting back to the train factory.

cheers
John
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The SRL will not connect to the current tracks in Melbourne, that has been ruled out months ago. Separate tracks, separate system, just like Sydney Metro is separate from Sydney Trains, it's no different here with SRL. SRL will be a metro operated system.
Beg to differ. From all public statements so far, pretty clear that MARL and SRL will share the Airport to Sunshine part.

Nothing radical about that but does mean a couple of things.
 Rolling stock both match the platform screen doors at Airport.
 Same voltage
 Same guage ( why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to put a single piece of SG line in amongst the rest of Metro ?)
It's clear that they will share an alignment, but I don't think that there has been any indication that they'll share the same tracks, has there?

It's always looked to me like they'd have completely separate tracks for city-to-airport trains than they would for the SRL, and this would enable smaller, lighter vehicles for the SRL, with the possibility of a completely different gauge.
Yer sure, 6 tracks down the Albion. Each with a max 6tph. How many $Bill does that waste ?

A 3-4 car standard suburban train easily qualifies as smaller and lighter (and cheaper).
Do you seriously suggest SRL stock will be be squeezy, narrow like 19th century undergrounds. Already enough complaints about Metro today.

As for guage, what for? Just to be incompatible with all other lines, including getting back to the train factory.

cheers
John
justarider
No.

The Airport alignment will be altered for SRL trains only once the SRL connects to the airport. The Airport trains would then be redirected to Melton.

That's the state government's plan. The SRL will be separate from the existing Melbourne trains network, the same is done with Sydney Metro in Sydney.

If Sydney wanted to they could of had metro trains run alongside the trains on the Bankstown line, but they didn't. They converted the line from Sydney trains to metro. The same thing will happen on the Airport line. The Airport two tracks will be converted to Metro for SRL, and then the Melton corridor can be electrified and go into the Metro tunnel instead of the Airport corridor. They will switch the alignment of the tracks when this arrangement happens much later down the timeline.
  Upven Train Controller

I think it’ll simply be more likely that SRL will be standard gauge, not a whole new gauge. Hopefully they just buy something off the shelf.

What I’m not liking so far is the “branding” behind the SRL, which suggests to me that it may be privatsied to a different operator than MTM? Station mock ups even have this weird SRL logo (completely unnecessary) and will only confuse infrequent users.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The SRL will not connect to the current tracks in Melbourne, that has been ruled out months ago. Separate tracks, separate system, just like Sydney  
No.

The Airport alignment will be altered for SRL trains only once the SRL connects to the airport. The Airport trains would then be redirected to Melton.

That's the state government's plan. The SRL will be separate from the existing Melbourne trains network, the same is done with Sydney Metro in Sydney.

If Sydney wanted to they could of had metro trains run alongside the trains on the Bankstown line, but they didn't. They converted the line from Sydney trains to metro. The same thing will happen on the Airport line. The Airport two tracks will be converted to Metro for SRL, and then the Melton corridor can be electrified and go into the Metro tunnel instead of the Airport corridor. They will switch the alignment of the tracks when this arrangement happens much later down the timeline.
True Believers
do you have a secret squirrel? to be so emphatic about what is so far just a line on a map.

I will be very interested in you grand plan where I can actually take a train fron CBD to the Airport.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

do you have a secret squirrel? to be so emphatic about what is so far just a line on a map.

I will be very interested in you grand plan where I can actually take a train fron CBD to the Airport.
justarider

Yeah I agree my certainty on the intended decision may be too early to tell, but there are many hints that this is the most likely outcome.

The way the government branded the SRL is a continuous trip, this can be seen in their promoting the travel times across place to place, like it's own very own line. Also SRL is branded like a light-metro network, like somewhat to Sydney metro is. There is some uncertainty whether they'll adopt full driverless technology, but is also quite likely since it's a brand new line.

It's unlikely that they'll put the existing network with the SRL network on the same track, Either SRL forms a different alignment, it gets it's own track, or the more likely outcome move the Airport line service as the role of SRL to do. Once SRL is in serve to the Airport, anyone from the CBD would need to change at Broadmeadows or Sunshine, I'm sure people will be adjusted to interchanging more when MM1 comes to completion and MM2 starts to go ahead. Interchanging different rail services is definitely better for Melbourne in the longer term when it becomes a more decentralised city in 15-20 years time.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner


The SRL has to take in far more of the western suburbs to be effective, the current route from the airport to Sunshine makes zero sense and will turn Sunshine into a choke point. If it ran through Caroline Springs and onto Watergardens and then to the airport, it becomes a viable alternative for commuters that presently use the Ring Road.
Perhaps that's a possible route, the only issue is Caroline springs and Watergardens are probably not ideal locations until they have better infrastructure established such as universities, jobs and hospitals. It kinda needs a major job hub as well as good local connections.

True Believers
What everyone seems to be forgetting is that the purpose of SRL in the east and west are very different. This is why the west is at this stage under cooked.

In the east the major activity centres are well established, Southland, Box Hill and the universities. Northern section is also well established with Health & Education at Heidelberg and La Trobe, Employment at Broadmeadows and the Airport.

Beyond the airport the western suburbs are decades behind their eastern and northern counterparts.

While the SRL will service existing hubs in the east it will need to define them in the west. Running the current route via Sunshine and RRL does nothing to break up the suburbs by providing employment hubs; activity centres. Areas like Watergardens or Caroline Springs are prime for establishing jobs hubs like Box Hill and Glen Waverley. Currently they are minor suburban shopping centres with minimal job creation. With SRL and redevelopment they could easily become smaller versions of Box Hill. This provides major employment opportunities outside of the CBD, the whole purpose of Plan Melbourne.

They are predicting 500,000 extra residents and they expect that more than half of those people will commute to the CBD every day. An extra 200,000 cars and 100,000 commuters every day heading to the CBD, simply because there is poor or no employment near by. If SRL can get 100,000 people moving cross city in the west it will be a massive success and take enormous pressure of the radial lines (Werribee, Melton, Sunbury, WV) Even if it is just providing key stations with park and ride, allowing the west to access the Airport and the universities in under an hour. This is a much better outcome that all lines run via Sunshine.

The final station should be moved from Werribee to Hoppers Crossing, where the Mercy Hospital and VU are. This is another area prime for more development in health and education, creating more jobs in the west. SRL running here would connect the west to an area similar to La Trobe.

Where SRL has come after the development in the east, it needs to be the catalyst in the west. Otherwise the west is doomed to be the biggest dormitory suburb in Melbourne.

Lockie
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that the purpose of SRL in the east and west are very different. This is why the west is at this stage under cooked.
Lockie91
Couldn't agree more.

Most of the posters here who want to see the SRL go from Sunshine to Airport are from the east and have little clue just how little infrastructure has been spent out west.

Rent a house in point cook and try to commute to the CBD 5 days a week. It'll drive you mad by day 3.

More and more people are moving out west as land much closer to the city than pakenham or clyde gets released. Look at a map and see where the infill will occur and where the future suburbs will go. To say that these areas will not need major health, education and jobs precincts is laughable.

No one is suggesting that the SRL is needed in these areas today, just that by 2050 (predicted opening date), they will. It won't even be Dandrews who builds this section, hence why the lines are so vague. Just hope whoever comes after won't stuff up the west like every other spring st parliament has done once running out of money spent out east.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

(If/) When stage 2 of SRL opens, the trains will presumably terminate at the airport right? Why not extend stage two such that the airport line gets converted to SRL, therefore leaving SRL trains to terminate at Sunshine? That allows the Melton/Wyndham Vale lines to use the extra space freed up in the Metro Tunnel through removing Airport line trains.
This would hardly be a downgrade for passengers going from the airport to wherever. For most, they will be able to get on a speedy SRL service to the east, interchange, and get a train to their destination. For those wanting to get to the west or the CBD from the city, then just take the SRL service to Sunshine and change there. It will probably only add a couple of minutes to journey times into the CBD and save journey times elsewhere.
Only Werribee and Sandringham (and I guess Werribee and Williamstown) line passengers would be markedly worse off, but for Werribee line customers this would only last until the next stage of SRL opens. Otherwise, all people would still be able to get to their destination with only one change of trains from the airport. Expecting people to change trains to get into the CBD isn't unreasonable either. I'm pretty sure you have to do this in Singapore to get from the little East/West line branch to the airport onto the mainline.

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