Port Rail Shuttles For Melbourne At Last

 
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Somerton will be dual gauge too, incidentally:
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/more-freight-trains-melbournes-north
Carnot
To improve operational Flexibiliy or allow transfers of freight to the east I'd guess? Good news either way having another site on the gauge

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Somerton will be dual gauge too, incidentally:
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/more-freight-trains-melbournes-north
Carnot

Isn't already dual gauge?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Somerton will be dual gauge too, incidentally:
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/more-freight-trains-melbournes-north

Isn't already dual gauge?
bevans
Yes, mostly I think.  But it sounds like they might do some improved signaling onto the mainline etc.  At least they'll be the flexibility and capacity improvements in the mix.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

3 of these units https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401737.htm would probably do the job?
Consdering they're someone elses units, no.

We really need to stop using all the old crap and start buying new locomotives.

Agreed what are the options for some electrics?
Anything European, Stadler(Vossloh)/Alstom more than likely. Alstom has done Western Asian/Russian Electrics (5ft) and Stadler brought Vossloh Locomotives which in the past have made stuff for Spain and Portugal (5ft 6in)
...
I'd rather the EuroDual getting used, since it's a proven true dual mode electric/diesel for the most part that would sort of fit our loading gauge, and being Stadler/Vossloh more than likely not that hard to get 5ft 3in bogies under.
speedemon08
You're 100% right that the big issue is the loading gauge and putting the right bogies underneath is the easy bit. Stadler has already solved the loading gauge part by creating a UK-spec body shell that would be compatible with all Australian loading gauges.

There is one UKDual version in service with a 710kW diesel-electric capability, registered on the ex-BR network as Class 88, and a second proposed (potentially to be registered as Class 93) with a 1500kW diesel-battery hybrid capability for running off the wires.

The electrical hardware for 1500V/3000V usage would take up less space in the body than the 25kV gear, which may allow a Melbourne-spec order of the hybrid version to have a larger engine and larger battery banks.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Picking this up after the xmas break for everyone.

Any more discussion or talk on electrics running the port rail shuttles making the service more friendly to the environment and reducing noise?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Resubmit in 2030.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:roll:
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Resubmit in 2030.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:roll:
YM-Mundrabilla

Meaning it is not being considered or not happening?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Resubmit in 2030.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:roll:

Meaning it is not being considered or not happening?
NSWGR8022
It has been 'being considered' for donkey's years and whilst a few 'cosmetic' things may have been done these have been far outweighed by spin, smoke, mirrors and political promises over many years.

I hope that I am wrong but it is my belief that it will never happen. The infrastructure, the will, the economics and logistics and the drive to make it work simply do not exist. The only things that do exist are the 'break of gauge' and opposition in the form of the costs (both CAPEX and WE*), the road lobby and Metro.
* Working Expenses.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Help me out are you saying the idea of Port Rail Shuttles is dead and the concept will not go ahead because of the road freight lobby?

Or are you saying electrification will not happen?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Help me out are you saying the idea of Port Rail Shuttles is dead and the concept will not go ahead because of the road freight lobby?

Or are you saying electrification will not happen?
NSWGR8022
At the outset, I don't know any more than you, or just about anyone else, which is why I said:

'I hope that I am wrong but it is my belief that it will never happen'.

Electric traction is out in my view for the following reasons:
  • Much of the potential traffic is on SG where there are 'no poles and wires'.
  • There are no electric locos either BG or SG.
  • You cannot work a wired container terminal.
  • Any regular/reliable/ timely BG traffic is out because of Metro.

How many voting truckies are going to be out of work if the Port Trip Trains concept succeeds? There are going to be a squillion unemployed tippers and dogs when current tunnel projects are complete as it is.

Visualise, please:
A container for Joe the Goose arrives at Swanson Dock on Monday, is picked up (lift $$$) by Fred's truck and delivered to Joe Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning.
The same container arrives at Swanson Dock on Monday and is transferred ($$$ lift) to a trip train. Trip train wanders off to suburban terminal sometime on Monday ($$$ linehaul). Container unloaded from train ($$$ lift). Fred arrives Tuesday and collects container ($$$ lift and $$$ roadhaul). Fred delivers Tuesday at best but probably Wednesday.

Apart from Fred's truck somebody has to provide/pay for:
  • Maintenance port/terminal sidings
  • Track access
  • Rolling stock
  • Locomotives
  • Cranes etc
These are all in addition to Fred's single truck journey from the wharf to Joe's factory

Without some decisive government (haha) force and/or subsidy I don't see the inconvenience and/or economics stacking up. There simply are not the will/guts/competence at government level to make it work.

More likely the status quo of studies, reports, investigations, dreams, spin, smoke and mirrors will remain. ??????
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
This is at odds with the many other countries were rail is the primary transport mode for the port and melbourne should be no different especially since the location is in a close the CBD suburb.

My understanding of ready the port rail project is trains will be loaded on dock (the investment is happening now) and those trains will run to Cranbourne to the terminal and unloaded.

What the next step should be is industry based sidings like the USA, Euope and England making it even more efficient.

With trains moving 100 containers in a single trip how could this be more costly that 100 trucks?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
This is at odds with the many other countries were rail is the primary transport mode for the port and melbourne should be no different especially since the location is in a close the CBD suburb.

My understanding of ready the port rail project is trains will be loaded on dock (the investment is happening now) and those trains will run to Cranbourne to the terminal and unloaded.

What the next step should be is industry based sidings like the USA, Euope and England making it even more efficient.

With trains moving 100 containers in a single trip how could this be more costly that 100 trucks?
NSWGR8022
'With trains moving 100 containers in a single trip how could this be more costly that 100 trucks?'

An excellent question to which I don't know the answer but it seems that the answer must be that it is more expensive in cost, time, efficiency (whatever) or there would be a hell of a lot more interstate traffic on rail.

Time will tell ......................... but do not overlook two key words 'Melbourne' and 'Victoria'.Smile

As I have said I would love to see Trip Trains in Melbourne work but, even in my wildest dreams, I cannot see it happening and certainly not in the manner that we would be led to believe.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Victoria does have a shocking track record of delivering sustainable freight rail outcomes.  It is shocking even if you consider the Dookie line and also 5 years since Port Rail Shuttles were announced and funding from the feds provided.  The Port of Melbourne is making a large investment and if the government blocks these trains then I think it will really blow up in their face.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'.... 5 years since Port Rail Shuttles were announced ...'
A detailed study was going on ages before that - around 2010 or more to my knowledge.

The government was just as incompetent then as it is now.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
'.... 5 years since Port Rail Shuttles were announced ...'
A detailed study was going on ages before that - around 2010 or more to my knowledge.

The government was just as incompetent then as it is now.
YM-Mundrabilla

I can't disagree with that statement.  The government can organise a project with immediate start for the West Gate Tunnel and the North East Link but 6 years later it cannot deliver port rail shuttles.  This is due to the deliberate actions of the government to prevent rail freight from taking a hold.  The government has already failed on the promise of raising rail's share of traffic in and out of the port by actually reducing the amount of containers on rail.

It is by design.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Do any suburban goods yards exist anymore?  
If they don’t, then trip trains are just fantasy trains with nowhere to go.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Do any suburban goods yards exist anymore?  
If they don’t, then trip trains are just fantasy trains with nowhere to go.
Donald

Dandenong is available I think but these trains are planned to be between Port of Melbourne and Lyndhurst and Port of Melbourne and Somerton.  

I personally hope to see an intermodal terminal in Geelong at some point so that could also be an option.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Do any suburban goods yards exist anymore?  
If they don’t, then trip trains are just fantasy trains with nowhere to go.
Donald
New 'satellite' suburban terminals are planned/proposed/exist (whatever) somewhere around Somerton, Lyndhurst and Tarneit to serve North, South/East and Western areas.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Geelong should look for an intermodal terminal serpent than later. Ballarat will have one before Geelong and that does seem odd.
  Djebel Locomotive Driver

This is at odds with the many other countries were rail is the primary transport mode for the port and melbourne should be no different especially since the location is in a close the CBD suburb.

My understanding of ready the port rail project is trains will be loaded on dock (the investment is happening now) and those trains will run to Cranbourne to the terminal and unloaded.

What the next step should be is industry based sidings like the USA, Euope and England making it even more efficient.

With trains moving 100 containers in a single trip how could this be more costly that 100 trucks?
'With trains moving 100 containers in a single trip how could this be more costly that 100 trucks?'

An excellent question to which I don't know the answer but it seems that the answer must be that it is more expensive in cost, time, efficiency (whatever) or there would be a hell of a lot more interstate traffic on rail.

Time will tell ......................... but do not overlook two key words 'Melbourne' and 'Victoria'.Smile

As I have said I would love to see Trip Trains in Melbourne work but, even in my wildest dreams, I cannot see it happening and certainly not in the manner that we would be led to believe.
YM-Mundrabilla
Time is a massive factor.  With Just In Time operations being the norm these days, waiting even an extra day is not an option.  I sometimes deal with time sensitive freight at work.  It needs to get from SE Melbourne to western Sydney in 12 hours.  Reckon that would happen with the train?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
This is at odds with the many other countries were rail is the primary transport mode for the port and melbourne should be no different especially since the location is in a close the CBD suburb.

My understanding of ready the port rail project is trains will be loaded on dock (the investment is happening now) and those trains will run to Cranbourne to the terminal and unloaded.

What the next step should be is industry based sidings like the USA, Euope and England making it even more efficient.

With trains moving 100 containers in a single trip how could this be more costly that 100 trucks?
'With trains moving 100 containers in a single trip how could this be more costly that 100 trucks?'

An excellent question to which I don't know the answer but it seems that the answer must be that it is more expensive in cost, time, efficiency (whatever) or there would be a hell of a lot more interstate traffic on rail.

Time will tell ......................... but do not overlook two key words 'Melbourne' and 'Victoria'.Smile

As I have said I would love to see Trip Trains in Melbourne work but, even in my wildest dreams, I cannot see it happening and certainly not in the manner that we would be led to believe.
Time is a massive factor.  With Just In Time operations being the norm these days, waiting even an extra day is not an option.  I sometimes deal with time sensitive freight at work.  It needs to get from SE Melbourne to western Sydney in 12 hours.  Reckon that would happen with the train?
Djebel
Clearly not!
Equally clear is that there is no/insufficient price incentive to outweigh the transit time disadvantage of rail.
  bevans Site Admin
  SinickleBird Assistant Commissioner

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
“Our 30 year Development Strategy...”.

Nuf said - your grandchildren might witness a shuttle.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
“Our 30 year Development Strategy...”.

Nuf said - your grandchildren might witness a shuttle.
SinickleBird
I've seen an ad pop up on facebook in regarding a small road road closure around Lyndhurst/Lynbrook, due to something getting built there nearish the warehouses there. Take it as you will.

Found it!

https://www.greaterdandenong.vic.gov.au/works-and-projects/bayliss-road-closure-and-dandenong-south-inland-port
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
“Our 30 year Development Strategy...”.

Nuf said - your grandchildren might witness a shuttle.
I've seen an ad pop up on facebook in regarding a small road road closure around Lyndhurst/Lynbrook, due to something getting built there nearish the warehouses there. Take it as you will.

Found it!

https://www.greaterdandenong.vic.gov.au/works-and-projects/bayliss-road-closure-and-dandenong-south-inland-port
speedemon08



This is good news.  Do we have a clear view on what the track configuration might look like and how many roads will be provided?

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