Paisley Station

 
Topic moved from Victoria by bevans on 13 Jan 2021 20:12
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
Never said the photo wasn't interesting. I queried if the 'raising the dead' rule still applied given the thread was last active in 2004. Calm the farm.

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Never said the photo wasn't interesting. I queried if the 'raising the dead' rule still applied given the thread was last active in 2004. Calm the farm.
K160

Raising the dead was stupid policy and is now dead.
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
Well with that sorted shall we move on? Cool

About a month ago a young bloke who calls himself 'The Train Man' on YouTube uploaded this video on the closed stations along the Werribee line, including Paisley:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VN15P0IGaM
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
I did see some photos around recently (they may have been courtesy of Marcus Wong, but I'm not certain) of a HCMT test train stopped at Paisley, with staff on the disused platform checking something.

Nice to see someone get some use out of that derelict old platform.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Is there value in refurbishment of the station for rail access to take more trips off the road ?

Trying to think why it closed in the first place.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Is there value in refurbishment of the station for rail access to take more trips off the road ?

Trying to think why it closed in the first place.
freightgate
For what it's worth, wiki says this:

"In 1985, a new extension joining Westona and Laverton stations was opened. The Werribee line had been electrified two years earlier,[1] but after the construction of the Westona - Laverton link, trains on the Werribee line were diverted via Altona and Westona to try to make a more viable route, because both Paisley and the nearby station of Galvin were little used. As a result, Paisley, along with Galvin, were bypassed and closed. The last trains stopped at the station on 14 April 1985."

Little used, and the trains were diverted via Altona.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Is there value in refurbishment of the station for rail access to take more trips off the road ?

Trying to think why it closed in the first place.
freightgate
There would be very little reason to open it - it wouldn't draw too much traffic as a park and ride as the Altona Loop now has an almost full time direct service. It only has half a local catchment area as it is bordered to one side by large refineries and on the other by low density suburbs.

The suburbs have access to good quality buses linking to Newport, which gets a high frequency of trains even if one of the branches is operating as a shuttle, something that will occur less often after the next timetable change.

The motor car trips on the freeway and Millers Road aren't coming from local traffic.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Is there value in refurbishment of the station for rail access to take more trips off the road ?

Trying to think why it closed in the first place.
There would be very little reason to open it - it wouldn't draw too much traffic as a park and ride as the Altona Loop now has an almost full time direct service. It only has half a local catchment area as it is bordered to one side by large refineries and on the other by low density suburbs.

The suburbs have access to good quality buses linking to Newport, which gets a high frequency of trains even if one of the branches is operating as a shuttle, something that will occur less often after the next timetable change.

The motor car trips on the freeway and Millers Road aren't coming from local traffic.
TOQ-1
There is actually no direct bus link from Altona North to Newport.
Route 411/412 & 903 run back to Altona. 232 is a hopeless park and ride bus service. The only direct link into Newport is 432 & 471 which skirt the suburb of Altona North.

Maybe not now, but depending on the development of the area a future Paisley could be a possibility. Even a basic station these days will cost more than $50M, so a hard sell. An upgrade of the park and ride that is already there and re routing of two local bus route and it could have some merit. 903 already passes by the station, would be a handy station for residents of Altona North. Again, if single dwellings start to turn into units and townhouses the area will have greater demand.

It again depends on what a future service on the Werribee line looks like, if the two tiered service (Werribee Express and Laverton Stoppers) continues. If the Altona Loop gets fully duplicated, I suspect all service will run via the loop stopping all stations with a boosted frequency.

Lockie
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Is there value in refurbishment of the station for rail access to take more trips off the road ?

Trying to think why it closed in the first place.
There would be very little reason to open it - it wouldn't draw too much traffic as a park and ride as the Altona Loop now has an almost full time direct service. It only has half a local catchment area as it is bordered to one side by large refineries and on the other by low density suburbs.

The suburbs have access to good quality buses linking to Newport, which gets a high frequency of trains even if one of the branches is operating as a shuttle, something that will occur less often after the next timetable change.

The motor car trips on the freeway and Millers Road aren't coming from local traffic.
There is actually no direct bus link from Altona North to Newport.
Route 411/412 & 903 run back to Altona. 232 is a hopeless park and ride bus service. The only direct link into Newport is 432 & 471 which skirt the suburb of Altona North.

Maybe not now, but depending on the development of the area a future Paisley could be a possibility. Even a basic station these days will cost more than $50M, so a hard sell. An upgrade of the park and ride that is already there and re routing of two local bus route and it could have some merit. 903 already passes by the station, would be a handy station for residents of Altona North. Again, if single dwellings start to turn into units and townhouses the area will have greater demand.

It again depends on what a future service on the Werribee line looks like, if the two tiered service (Werribee Express and Laverton Stoppers) continues. If the Altona Loop gets fully duplicated, I suspect all service will run via the loop stopping all stations with a boosted frequency.

Lockie
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The 432 could probably be more direct, but it and the 471 definitely don't 'skirt' the suburb, they go straight through the residential areas. The Industrial side of the suburb on the west of the Kororoit Creek does not have good access to buses, but Paisley station wouldn't help with that as the Creek is a major barrier with limited road crossings.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Is there value in refurbishment of the station for rail access to take more trips off the road ?

Trying to think why it closed in the first place.
freightgate
it's all very academic anyways.

With the quadding of those tracks for a Geelong express, the area will be bulldozed flat.

cheers
John
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Is it the old "Flagstaff on Sundays" problem or would it still not have anyone using the station after 35 years? Flagstaff used to be closed on Sundays, so it had a total of 0 people using it on that day. The government used the 0 people in the statistics to say that no-one would use it on a Sunday thus it should remain closed. When it finally opened last decade, people magically started using it in the thousands just like the other City Loop stations.

How would Paisley compare to other quiet stations like Wattle Glen, Tecoma, East Camberwell or pre-2010 Officer? As with Paisley, South Kensington couldn't be located in a worse place if it tried, yet it still gets people. The buses in the area would definitely be used a lot more if they were serving a station instead of nothingness, likewise for anyone who was looking for a parking space - the Altona line being located on such as narrow strip of land must be all but devoid of parking, forcing everyone to head west to Laverton or the like. Leave enough room for a couple of hundred cars (particularly when the transport desert that is Point Cook isn't that far away) and you've got a popular station that also gets to skip the snail's pace annoyance of the Altona line. Also, which station is located in a better position, Paisley or Galvin? I know next to nothing about the Werribee line.
  doyle Chief Commissioner

A case of build it they will come
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Is there value in refurbishment of the station for rail access to take more trips off the road ?

Trying to think why it closed in the first place.
it's all very academic anyways.

With the quadding of those tracks for a Geelong express, the area will be bulldozed flat.

cheers
John
justarider
Go back and read the Geelong line press releases very carefully - it states one extra track (using wording that could mean singular) between Werribee and Laverton. Nothing about quadding at all.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Go back and read the Geelong line press releases very carefully - it states one extra track (using wording that could mean singular) between Werribee and Laverton. Nothing about quadding at all.
TOQ-1
That's If that plan ever comes to function In the near term ! (the plan fails to address the problems with the Newport SCS section)
  Tii Junior Train Controller

Is it the old "Flagstaff on Sundays" problem or would it still not have anyone using the station after 35 years? Flagstaff used to be closed on Sundays, so it had a total of 0 people using it on that day. The government used the 0 people in the statistics to say that no-one would use it on a Sunday thus it should remain closed. When it finally opened last decade, people magically started using it in the thousands just like the other City Loop stations.

How would Paisley compare to other quiet stations like Wattle Glen, Tecoma, East Camberwell or pre-2010 Officer? As with Paisley, South Kensington couldn't be located in a worse place if it tried, yet it still gets people. The buses in the area would definitely be used a lot more if they were serving a station instead of nothingness, likewise for anyone who was looking for a parking space - the Altona line being located on such as narrow strip of land must be all but devoid of parking, forcing everyone to head west to Laverton or the like. Leave enough room for a couple of hundred cars (particularly when the transport desert that is Point Cook isn't that far away) and you've got a popular station that also gets to skip the snail's pace annoyance of the Altona line. Also, which station is located in a better position, Paisley or Galvin? I know next to nothing about the Werribee line.
Heihachi_73
Galvin sat amongst the chemical plastic plants in the industrial section of Altona, most of which are now closing. Paisley has housing to the north of the station and sits on a main road. To its south is the Mobil oil refinery and tank farm, so no housing until the Seaholme area.
  Blackmissionary Station Staff

Really, there is little justification for reopening Paisley beyond "because we can".

There are no shops on the east side of Millers Road where the station is except for the barest remains of a small suburban shopping strip. On the west side is Bunnings and other warehouse stores, served by a large carpark, and three bus routes, including the 903 Smartbus, and the 232 to the city.

It's too much of a walk from what was Paisley station to Bayside College's Paisley campus. The two soccer clubs nearby don't attract a large number of spectators. There's not even much parking in the immediate area if part of the rationale was to alleviate some of the load on Newport, unless you count the park and ride allotment for the 232.

I'm not even sure the residential catchment would be big enough to justify it, seeing as how it exists only the northern side of the station site, because the refinery takes up everything south of what was Paisley station.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Really, there is little justification for reopening Paisley beyond "because we can"
Blackmissionary
I don't even think it has that going for it.

It's a bit like General Motors. Just because the government of the day didn't bother bulldozing the site after it closed, some people equate that with a possibility of a future re-opening.

When it was open it was lightly used, and it was closed so the Met could run all of their services via Altona. Even today, Metro runs all of their weekend and public holiday trains via Altona.

To re-open Paisley Station, a 2 tier service would be required. That is a lot of extra funding for one station with low ridership prospects.

As for Galvin, that has even worse prospects. Its former location is about 1 km down the road from Westona (both were/are located on Maidstone St), the difference being Westona at least is located in a residential suburb. Galvin is surrounded by heavy industy. Heavy Industry doesn't lend itself to commuting by heavy rail with its need for decently spaced stations.
  Altona Loopy Station Master

My wife and I were often the only passengers waiting at Galvin for our city morning commute shortly after Werribee electrification in 1983. The Altona loop was extended to Laverton in 1985.

The diversion of Werribee trains via Altona was the death of Paisley and Galvin. Mind you, I didn't live nearby, but in Altona Meadows but drove to Galvin as in those Travelcard days Galvin was the last station in Zone 1.

There is no change to that industrial area since, some new light industrial on the southern side, but if anything, the heavy industry on the northern side has declined.

Similarly no new residential development around Paisley would warrant re-opening that station. Some new light commercial development on the west side of Millers Road doesn't make it viable either.

The only slight chance of a new station in the area would be near Maddox Road at West Newport to take some pressure off Newport. Significant medium density housing is occurring south of the railway and will match the residential area to the north.

Probably won't happen given the lack of space for new platforms and the possible long term plans for the return of VLine trains
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Is there value in refurbishment of the station for rail access to take more trips off the road ?

Trying to think why it closed in the first place.
it's all very academic anyways.

With the quadding of those tracks for a Geelong express, the area will be bulldozed flat.

cheers
John
justarider
I don't believe the quadding of that line will be between Laverton and Newport - from what I've read it will be one track (and one track only) for V/line trains to overtake suburban services and the track will be between Laverton and Werribee.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
That makes sense, as all trains run express between Laverton and Altona Junction on the straight anyway and no sparks run there at all on the weekends. Extra tracks there would be a waste.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
it's all very academic anyways.
With the quadding of those tracks for a Geelong express, the area will be bulldozed flat.
I don't believe the quadding of that line will be between Laverton and Newport - from what I've read it will be one track (and one track only) for V/line trains to overtake suburban services and the track will be between Laverton and Werribee.
don_dunstan
That makes sense, as all trains run express between Laverton and Altona Junction on the straight anyway and no sparks run there at all on the weekends. Extra tracks there would be a waste.
Gman_86
I thought TOQ-1 put that to rest 3 weeks ago with the same observation, yet here we are still taking about my brain fart.

If the $billions proposed only deliver one single express track between Werribee and Laverton, than that would be a monumental waste. Saving 5 minutes at best.

If they can't achieve a Vlo going 160kph express from Lara/Little River to Newport, saving minimum 15 minutes, not worth the effort.
A metro "express" going at max 100kph is just going to get in the way.
Quad is over the top, but they have to get the counter-peak back home pronto to avoid buying yet more rolling stock for very few trips/day.
Perhaps MM2 will reveal all.

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

I don't believe the quadding of that line will be between Laverton and Newport - from what I've read it will be one track (and one track only) for V/line trains to overtake suburban services and the track will be between Laverton and Werribee.
don_dunstan
The one track thing was read from a press release lacking in detail, not from any official renders, drawings or promotional material.

It is not inconceivable (in fact very likely) that someone in PR has seen "track pair" and decided that the word pair is redundant and dropped it.

Until we have further information, spreading the rumour (which is all that it is at this stage, unless you've seen documents not yet publicly released) that it will be one single track is not helpful to the discussion.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
it's all very academic anyways.
With the quadding of those tracks for a Geelong express, the area will be bulldozed flat.
I don't believe the quadding of that line will be between Laverton and Newport - from what I've read it will be one track (and one track only) for V/line trains to overtake suburban services and the track will be between Laverton and Werribee.
That makes sense, as all trains run express between Laverton and Altona Junction on the straight anyway and no sparks run there at all on the weekends. Extra tracks there would be a waste.
I thought TOQ-1 put that to rest 3 weeks ago with the same observation, yet here we are still taking about my brain fart.

If the $billions proposed only deliver one single express track between Werribee and Laverton, than that would be a monumental waste. Saving 5 minutes at best.

If they can't achieve a Vlo going 160kph express from Lara/Little River to Newport, saving minimum 15 minutes, not worth the effort.
A metro "express" going at max 100kph is just going to get in the way.
Quad is over the top, but they have to get the counter-peak back home pronto to avoid buying yet more rolling stock for very few trips/day.
Perhaps MM2 will reveal all.

cheers
John
justarider
They'll be banking on time savings overtaking Werribee-Laverton all stops, 'sitting behind' a 100km/h express Laverton-Newport isn't the the problem, it's the competition with the all-stops trains Newport-Footscray-City that'll be the real choke point. As you say MMT2 might show 25kv Geelong trains direct City-Docklands-Newport eventually - Dan has massive pockets remember.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
it's all very academic anyways.
They'll be banking on time savings overtaking Werribee-Laverton all stops, 'sitting behind' a 100km/h express Laverton-Newport isn't the the problem, it's the competition with the all-stops trains Newport-Footscray-City that'll be the real choke point. As you say MMT2 might show 25kv Geelong trains direct City-Docklands-Newport eventually - Dan has massive pockets remember.
don_dunstan
Werribee-Laverton SAS is just 11 minutes. So overtaking is gunna save SFA. 5 min tops.
But if the Vlo stop at both of those, the extra dwell time for Vline would swallow most of that gain.

As i said, if they can't gain 15 minutes then it's a waste of effort.

Agreed there will be nothing gained between Newport and SCS  , so all the effort needs to be in the countryside.

Sparking the Geelong line would be minimal difference.
With MM2 could just as well send the Werribee metro down the tunnel,  and give the Geelong train free reign on the existing track.

cheers
John

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