West Werribee Developments and rail access

 
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Rail to the Airport should be done as cheaply as possible. The State Government should work with the ARTC in remodeling both the Standard Gauge and Broad Gauge Freight lines and using track which will be left unused once the Sunbury Line for access to the CBD. $10 Billion for a Train Service to the Airport which will be essentially just a another branch of MM1 for 6 trains a hour is a ridiculous waste of money and time.

Michael
I'd Say there are doing the airport rail on the cheep, diverting down the Metro Tunnel to avoid having to do anymore network upgrades to free up capacity into the urban core. As for the Route proper itself, running it parallel to the Freight line and down the Tullamarine Freeway corridor/easement (Idk what one they are doing yet) is miles cheeper then the Private proposal for a dedicated tunnel to Spencer's Street that was floating around a few years ago. Rail to the Airport, is something that nearly every modern city has, with all major cities with passenger rail networks minus Adelaide and Melbourne having one. Its Well overdue, as much as sparking to Melton.

As for Sparking to Melton, the Western rail plan probably will have to include an extra pair of tracks from sunshine to Footscray, unless they want to give up the dedicated V/line Tracks...
Dangersdan707
I totally agree that Melbourne should have one, however I think that the Western Rail Link should take precedence, and that money and resources should be directed there. Instead of using MM1, why not make the Airport Link another cross city service say with the Glen Waverley or Sandringham Lines? The Airport Link is in the main using existing freight corridors. They could work with the ARTC and make it part of the works for Inland Rail. I am sure they can do for a lot less than $10 Billion and 7 years.


Michael

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Why is everyone assuming the cost when the business case has not been released yet?

We don't even know the exact full scope of the project yet?

It's like assuming the SRL project will cost $50 billion, but god knows what that will cost.

You can criticise aspects of the projects that are not even defined yet.

It's like criticising the suburban rail loop tunnelling portion is taking way too long, but the tunnel boring machines haven't arrived yet, it's crazy.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Why is everyone assuming the cost when the business case has not been released yet?

We don't even know the exact full scope of the project yet?

It's like assuming the SRL project will cost $50 billion, but god knows what that will cost.

You can criticise aspects of the projects that are not even defined yet.

It's like criticising the suburban rail loop tunnelling portion is taking way too long, but the tunnel boring machines haven't arrived yet, it's crazy.
True Believers
The State and Federal Governments have costed the MARL at $10 Billion. You can only go by what the State Govt has released as scope. Lets hope it includes some other works because $10 Billion for MARL is far too much.


Michael
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

...
The State and Federal Governments have costed the MARL at $10 Billion. You can only go by what the State Govt has released as scope. Lets hope it includes some other works because $10 Billion for MARL is far too much.
mejhammers1
State and Federal governments have ‘committed’ up to $5B each. No costing have been done, nor has a business case been released.

The project could come in at half the price. However without a proper scope, more than a line on a map, or a full business case it’s impossible to know.

Could very well be that the airport link only comes in at 2 or 3 billion, with the remainder being redirected to other WRP projects. It is an election year for the Feds, maybe we will get more than car parks this time.

Lockie
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
...
The State and Federal Governments have costed the MARL at $10 Billion. You can only go by what the State Govt has released as scope. Lets hope it includes some other works because $10 Billion for MARL is far too much.
State and Federal governments have ‘committed’ up to $5B each. No costing have been done, nor has a business case been released.

The project could come in at half the price. However without a proper scope, more than a line on a map, or a full business case it’s impossible to know.

Could very well be that the airport link only comes in at 2 or 3 billion, with the remainder being redirected to other WRP projects. It is an election year for the Feds, maybe we will get more than car parks this time.

Lockie
Lockie91
Lets hope so.


Michael
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
I would understand the $10 Billion for the MARL if it included the proposed extra track pair from Sunshine to South Kensington. I can see why the complexities of delivering that would take the cost of the project out that far, but if it is just for new tracks and associated infrastructure from Sunshine to the Airport, then I agree, $10 Billion is way too much.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
A possible sequence of projects and related operation changes over the next 20-30 years.  Note I've just plucked 5 year increments out of my backside, in reality, it'd be far more refined.

I'm using all known NDP projects (except for South-East fast tracks that appeared in latest release of NDP) with a bit of freelancing on my behalf on MARL and WRP - hopefully that's obvious as per below.

Key construction/project milestones:

MM1 construction out to 2025.
SRL1# construction from 2022 out to 2030.
MARL1^ construction from 2022 out to 2030.
CLR **** construction from 2026 out to 2030/32.
GHS*** construction from 2025 out to 2030.  
WRP1* construction from 2025 to 2030.
MARL2^ construction from 2030 out to 2035.
MM2a** construction from 2030-2035/40
WRP2* construction from 2030 out to 2035.
SRL2# construction from 2030 out to 2040.
MM2b** construction from 2035/40-2045/50.

What each of the projects will be under this scenario:

# SRL1 new line from Southland to Box Hill.
# SRL2 new line from Box Hill to Airport.
^ MARL1 includes a [heavily] reconfigured Sunshine, new junction/pair Sunshine-Albion and then new track along Albion corridor and up into an underground station at Melbourne Airport.
^ MARL2 includes extending the tunnel at Melbourne Airport directly west and then taking the pair on the surface beyond the airport land to the Sunbury line just north of the Calder Freeway then quad track to Sunbury & Sunbury station reconfig.
* WRP1 includes works any works still required at Sunshine not carried out by MARL1 project (i.e connecting any new tunnels or platforms created but not immediately used after MARL1 starts ops), quadruplication Sunshine-Deer Park-Melton & includes electrification of Melton [current pair that goes through stations with platforms - new pair bypasses stations], proper Deer Park flying junction, electrification Deer Park to Wyndham Vale.
* WRP2 includes new electrified surface track Sunshine-West Footscray, short 2-3km tunnel under Footscray [no station, just an underground bypass] surfaces just west of Maribyrnong river, connects to redundant Sunbury (post MM1) pair - direct path to SX via North Melbourne.
** MM2a = Third side of West Werribee triangle & Wyndham Vale goes to 3-4 platforms, quad track West Werribee junction to Werribee station (so GHS gets the faster pair), Newport-SX tunnel via two Fishermans Bend station sites, duplication of Altona Loop.
** MM2b = SX-Clifton Hill/Merri tunnel.
*** GHS = Geelong High Speed, quad Werribee to Newport, upgrade track/signaling for 200kph speeds Newport-North Shore.
**** CLR = City Loop Reconfiguration sees Northern and Caulfield Loops turned into a through-route/track pair.  New flyovers at North Melbourne to separate Upfield [Wallan] from Craigieburn, other minor-ish track reconfig for [Wallan]-Upfield-Glen Waverley, an extension of Upfield to Wallan including quad track Roxy Park-Craigieburn (only Craigieburn would have a set of platforms), electrification etc.


Key operational changes every 5 years (see opening disclaimer).

2025:

Pakenham/Cranbourne-Sunbury (MARL1 - basic off-peak and weekend service: 4TPH for Pakenham/Cranbourne, 2 TPH terminate at West Footscray, 6TPH continue on to Sunbury).

2030:

Pakenham/Cranbourne-Sunbury/Airport (MARL1 - basic off-peak and weekend service: 6TPH for each branch, paired with another at the other end, i.e Pakenham-Airport and Cranbourne-Sunbury etc)
Craigieburn-all stations to North Melbourne-Flagstaff-Melbourne Central-Parliament-Richmond-South Yarra then all to Frankston and vv. (CLR - basic off-peak and weekend service: 6TPH)
[Wallan]-Upfield-all stations to North Melbourne-Southern Cross-Flinders Street-Richmond then all stations to Glen Waverley and vv. (CLR - basic off-peak and weekend service: 6TPH).
Southland-Box Hill (SRL/Brand new, driverless/automated basic off-peak/weekend service: 10-12 TPH)
Geelong & suburbs - Werribee - Newport - Footscray - Southern Cross (GHS - basic off-peak and weekend service 3TPH, 3 TPH in peak (with another 3TPH going via RRL as per recent announcements)
Melton all stations to Sunbury and then via MM1.  (WRP1 - basic off-peak and weekend service: 4TPH terminate at Westall/Dandenong)
Wyndham Vale all stations to Sunbury and then via MM1.  (WRP1 - basic off-peak and weekend service: 4TPH terminate at Westall/Dandenong).
Ballarat all stations to Melton express to Sunshine then via RRL to SX. (WRP1 - basic off-peak and weekend service: 1-2 TPH).
Laverton all stations via Altona Loop & Williamstown to Newport then all stations to City via Footscray. (WRP1 - basic off-peak and weekend service 4TPH for both Laverton & Williamstown).

comments:

- MM1 pair would have a basic off-peak and weekend: 4 + 4 + 6 + 6 = 20 TPH service on the west at this point some would probably terminate at Westall or Dandenong rather than send everything out to Pakenham/Cranbourne.
- Sunbury-Pakenham could be a good pairing, Sunbury gets 10TPH in peak now and taking into account the larger trains in 2030 keep it at the same frequency, probably balances well with Pakenham.  Airport-Cranbourne could be 6TPH but extra Cranbournes might originate at West Footscray (taking West Footscray-Cranbourne to 8 TPH (6 coming from Sunbury).  Melton/Wyndham Vale - keep peak frequency the same as off-peak until WRP2 - 26 TPH in peak until WRP2.

2035:

Geelong & suburbs - Werribee - Newport - Fishermans Bend - Southern Cross (MM2a - basic off-peak and weekend service: 3 TPH, in peak 6 TPH - i.e all Geelong trains now mix with Werribee Newport-SX [same stopping pattern in this section] which, long term, is a very good idea for Fishermans Bend and developing it / hooking Geelong directly into it)
[Wyndham Vale]-Werribee all stations to Newport (express route) - Fishermans Bend - Southern Cross.  (MM2a - basic off-peak and weekend service: 6 TPH).
Wyndham Vale all stations to Sunshine, switch to new WRP2 pair express all the way to North Melbourne-Southern Cross (WRP2 - basic off-peak and weekend service: 6 TPH).
Melton all stations to Sunshine, switch to new WRP2 pair, express all the way to North Melbourne-Southern Cross (WRP2 - basic off-peak and weekend service: 6 TPH).
Bendigo/Swan Hill/Echuca services run to Sunbury then divert via MARL stop at Melbourne Airport, Sunshine switch to RRL pair then express to Footscray and then Southern Cross (MARL2/WRP2 - basic off-peak and weekend service 2 TPH - peak 4-6 TPH [i.e some Kyneton or Castlemaine short-runners as well as main Bendigo and beyond services]).
Pakenham-Sunbury & Cranbourne-Airport (MARL2/WRP2 - basic off-peak service and weekend service: 6-8 TPH for each pair, half of the Cranbourne-Airport services continue on to Sunbury and terminate, half continue to terminate at the airport, Pakenham-Sunbury 6-8 TPH).

comments:

- WRP2 could probably kick off directly after WRP1 completes and the only major works are a short-ish tunnel and reconfig of tracks around the Maribyrnong River - definitely, a candidate that might only take 3 years, not 5 as per the basic outline I've used.
- 4 branches in the west (Airport/Sunbury/Melton/WV) all get a lot of room to breathe thanks to 2 branches coming off MM1 and onto the new WRP2 line.
- assuming "SRL" is just Southland-Airport (see below), the western sections are the standard metro services running WV-Deer Park-Sunshine sections that in 2035 (or earlier) have much more room to breathe/expand as needed as they'll run direct to the city and then out.

2040/45:

Southland-Airport (SRL2 Box Hill-Airport coming online - basic off-peak and weekend service 10-16 TPH/dependent on demand/managed differently due to it being driverless/automated).
Wyndham Vale-Werribee all stations to Newport - Fishermans Bend - SX - Parkville - Carlton - Fitzroy - Clifton Hill - Merri - all stations to Mernda (MM2b - basic off-peak and weekend service: 6-8 TPH) or maybe that other branch that's been on the cards for eons!
  3088D Station Master

As for the Route proper itself, running it parallel to the Freight line and down the Tullamarine Freeway corridor/easement (Idk what one they are doing yet) is miles cheeper then the Private proposal for a dedicated tunnel to Spencer's Street that was floating around a few years ago.
Dangersdan707
The FAQs at the Melbourne Airport Rail project website tells us:
"New dedicated tracks will be constructed along the existing Albion-Jacana freight corridor between Sunshine and Airport West. The tracks will veer off the freight corridor crossing the M80 freeway and head towards the airport following Airport Drive, before arriving at a premium station at Melbourne Airport. As part of the project, a new rail bridge will be constructed across the Maribyrnong River Valley and an elevated rail design will be used to cross the M80 freeway – one of the busiest freeways in Melbourne."

One engineering challenge here is the high voltage electricity cables on the north side of the freeway. The choice of the Airport Drive route suggests the elevated tracks continue after the freeway rather than a tunnel, at least until the proximity of the airport.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

As part of the project, a new rail bridge will be constructed across the Maribyrnong River Valley and an elevated rail design will be used to cross the M80 freeway – one of the busiest freeways in Melbourne."

One engineering challenge here is the high voltage electricity cables on the north side of the freeway.
3088D
Maybe use induction currents to feed into the catenary? Laughing
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
I would understand the $10 Billion for the MARL if it included the proposed extra track pair from Sunshine to South Kensington. I can see why the complexities of delivering that would take the cost of the project out that far, but if it is just for new tracks and associated infrastructure from Sunshine to the Airport, then I agree, $10 Billion is way too much.
Gman_86
Yes, the proposed extra track pair would bring it closer to $10 Billion, but 10 km of new track pair on an existing corridor, 7 km of elevated track, 2 new bridges, 18 km of electrification and 1 new station. $10 Billion for that. Then we are doing it wrong in Victoria.

Sunshine Station does not need to be re-modelled for just an extra 6 trains an hour which will use the Melbourne Metro.

If there are not going to be services past the airport, why build it Underground?


Michael
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
$10 billion is the commitment of public money subject to business case/other planning which might lower (or raise!) the price - why is this so hard to understand?

It's not an actual or estimated cost, it's simply a commitment from the public purse for that amount of funding.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yes, the proposed extra track pair would bring it closer to $10 Billion, but 10 km of new track pair on an existing corridor, 7 km of elevated track, 2 new bridges, 18 km of electrification and 1 new station. $10 Billion for that. Then we are doing it wrong in Victoria.

Sunshine Station does not need to be re-modelled for just an extra 6 trains an hour which will use the Melbourne Metro.

If there are not going to be services past the airport, why build it Underground?
mejhammers1

I would like to see an SG platform at Sunshine for the North East.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
$10 billion is the commitment of public money subject to business case/other planning which might lower (or raise!) the price - why is this so hard to understand?

It's not an actual or estimated cost, it's simply a commitment from the public purse for that amount of funding.
tayser
Well according to the Strategic Appraisal Document for the Sunshine Route, the full Business Case should have been completed by 2019-20. Indeed the Premier's press release dated 13/03/2019 stated that Planning and development of the MARL Business Case is already well underway.

So they should have a good idea of the spend. And they have already given a timeline. 7 Years, which is a ridiculous amount of time for what is basically a minor extension.


Michael
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
I would understand the $10 Billion for the MARL if it included the proposed extra track pair from Sunshine to South Kensington. I can see why the complexities of delivering that would take the cost of the project out that far, but if it is just for new tracks and associated infrastructure from Sunshine to the Airport, then I agree, $10 Billion is way too much.
Yes, the proposed extra track pair would bring it closer to $10 Billion, but 10 km of new track pair on an existing corridor, 7 km of elevated track, 2 new bridges, 18 km of electrification and 1 new station. $10 Billion for that. Then we are doing it wrong in Victoria.

Sunshine Station does not need to be re-modelled for just an extra 6 trains an hour which will use the Melbourne Metro.

If there are not going to be services past the airport, why build it Underground?


Michael
mejhammers1
I remember when the South Morang extension was costed out at $650mil, people were gobsmacked.

3 quarters of a billion for one new station about 3km from the end of the line - you can't be serious?  But when the full scope of the works was revealed they were comprehensive - the extension and new station as well as duplication, signalling upgrades, grade separation, station upgrades and stabling upgrades up and down the line, as well as some improvements that spilled over to the Hurstbridge line.  In fact, a large cost of bringing the Epping line up to the standard required to operate effectively as the Mernda line years later was catered for in the South Morang extension.

So if we do end up seeing MARL as being priced at $10B, I'll bet there will be loads of other things included in the "project" to help make way for future infrastructure improvements.  Some of which have already been flagged - MARL station that caters for SRL; Sunshine station rebuild (presumably for WRP) etc.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
and you need to look at the Airport masterplan as well.  Long term the runways will be a in a hashtag configuration (the 3rd will be a second north-south - and we'll probably know more on that in next 12 months).

On the last master plan for the airport (I believe it's getting an update now), the middle of the runways - where control tower + Melbourne Centre for AirServices Australia is now - will also have an in-field terminal surrounding it [and this is a good place for a second station].



As you can see, back in 2018 when this plan is from, they were thinking of new rail and road connections across the east-west axis of the airport (whether the rail is an extension of MARL or a dedicated people mover line for internal airport use is another question).

Edit: above is from page 88: https://www.melbourneairport.com.au/getmedia/672d0a02-c629-4391-9f6d-23d2ac623b81/Melbourne_Airport_Masterplan.pdf.aspx?ext=.pdf
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
I would understand the $10 Billion for the MARL if it included the proposed extra track pair from Sunshine to South Kensington. I can see why the complexities of delivering that would take the cost of the project out that far, but if it is just for new tracks and associated infrastructure from Sunshine to the Airport, then I agree, $10 Billion is way too much.
Yes, the proposed extra track pair would bring it closer to $10 Billion, but 10 km of new track pair on an existing corridor, 7 km of elevated track, 2 new bridges, 18 km of electrification and 1 new station. $10 Billion for that. Then we are doing it wrong in Victoria.

Sunshine Station does not need to be re-modelled for just an extra 6 trains an hour which will use the Melbourne Metro.

If there are not going to be services past the airport, why build it Underground?


Michael
I remember when the South Morang extension was costed out at $650mil, people were gobsmacked.

3 quarters of a billion for one new station about 3km from the end of the line - you can't be serious?  But when the full scope of the works was revealed they were comprehensive - the extension and new station as well as duplication, signalling upgrades, grade separation, station upgrades and stabling upgrades up and down the line, as well as some improvements that spilled over to the Hurstbridge line.  In fact, a large cost of bringing the Epping line up to the standard required to operate effectively as the Mernda line years later was catered for in the South Morang extension.

So if we do end up seeing MARL as being priced at $10B, I'll bet there will be loads of other things included in the "project" to help make way for future infrastructure improvements.  Some of which have already been flagged - MARL station that caters for SRL; Sunshine station rebuild (presumably for WRP) etc.
LeroyW
Fair point about the South Morang extension. Some 10 kms of duplication and all those upgrades. But $650 Million is a long, long way from $10 Billion. If indeed the MARL is to link up with the Melbourne Metro, then the upgrades to the Sunbury to the CBD has already been accounted for by MM1. So you are only really talking about 10 km of new track pair on an existing corridor, 7 km of elevated track, 2 new bridges, 17 km of electrification and 1 new station. $3 to $4 Billion but not $10 Billion. It must include other elements. The SRL though will not reach Sunshine for at least a decade if not 2.

Michael
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

That's just the tracks, if you include the trains and possible train depo, adds another few billion. As I said, we don't even know the final costings yet and finalised scope.

5-7 billion dollars is already the ballpark, but we don't really know as of yet. Yes, the business case was meant to be released now, but covid-19 has pushed back the date further to somewhere in 2021.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
That's just the tracks, if you include the trains and possible train depo, adds another few billion. As I said, we don't even know the final costings yet and finalised scope.

5-7 billion dollars is already the ballpark, but we don't really know as of yet. Yes, the business case was meant to be released now, but covid-19 has pushed back the date further to somewhere in 2021.
True Believers
The Depot is for Melbourne Metro 1 not MARL. The Trains are largely covered by the Original order for the HCMT. The Airport services will use the same trains as MM1. They may add 4 or 5 trains more for Airport services, because the Airport services will in the main simply be extensions of the West Footscray short turners. That 5 to 7 billion cannot be just for works to the Airport because as stated by the State Government, the Airport line will use MM1 infrastructure as far as Albion. They are only creating a new track pair on existing alignments from Albion to Airport West and 7kms of elevated new build from Airport West to the Airport, with 1 new station and 18kms of electrification. Should cost 3 to 4 Billion tops.


Michael
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
That's just the tracks, if you include the trains and possible train depo, adds another few billion. As I said, we don't even know the final costings yet and finalised scope.

5-7 billion dollars is already the ballpark, but we don't really know as of yet. Yes, the business case was meant to be released now, but covid-19 has pushed back the date further to somewhere in 2021.
The Depot is for Melbourne Metro 1 not MARL. The Trains are largely covered by the Original order for the HCMT. The Airport services will use the same trains as MM1. They may add 4 or 5 trains more for Airport services, because the Airport services will in the main simply be extensions of the West Footscray short turners. That 5 to 7 billion cannot be just for works to the Airport because as stated by the State Government, the Airport line will use MM1 infrastructure as far as Albion. They are only creating a new track pair on existing alignments from Albion to Airport West and 7kms of elevated new build from Airport West to the Airport, with 1 new station and 18kms of electrification. Should cost 3 to 4 Billion tops.


Michael
mejhammers1
Something tells me that when the scope was reduced, the cost and completion date weren't.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The Depot is for Melbourne Metro 1 not MARL. The Trains are largely covered by the Original order for the HCMT. The Airport services will use the same trains as MM1. They may add 4 or 5 trains more for Airport services, because the Airport services will in the main simply be extensions of the West Footscray short turners. That 5 to 7 billion cannot be just for works to the Airport because as stated by the State Government, the Airport line will use MM1 infrastructure as far as Albion. They are only creating a new track pair on existing alignments from Albion to Airport West and 7kms of elevated new build from Airport West to the Airport, with 1 new station and 18kms of electrification. Should cost 3 to 4 Billion tops.


Michael
mejhammers1
I said the possibility of an extra depo to the western side to accommodate the extra trains. If not the extra depo, you'd need to seriously expand the current ones. Either option would cost a bunch of money. The current depo never envisioned for the Airport line into the mix. Easy 500 million for expansion or building another depo.

The trains are largely covered by the original order for the HCMT. The 65 train order only caters for the Sunbury, Pakenham and Cranbourne corridors. 37 were needed for the South East. And 28 were needed for the Sunbury line.

Since you'll have trains every 10 minutes to the Airport and it's about a 20-kilometre line, you say you need more than 4 and 5 trains, completely underestimating here. You'd need about 15-20 trains, which costs quite a bit of extra money. 500-750 million

The train and expanded depo add another billion dollars to the project, a significant amount. This is why you can't judge the damn thing until they release more of the final details, the scope of the works will heavily affect the price of the project.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
The Depot is for Melbourne Metro 1 not MARL. The Trains are largely covered by the Original order for the HCMT. The Airport services will use the same trains as MM1. They may add 4 or 5 trains more for Airport services, because the Airport services will in the main simply be extensions of the West Footscray short turners. That 5 to 7 billion cannot be just for works to the Airport because as stated by the State Government, the Airport line will use MM1 infrastructure as far as Albion. They are only creating a new track pair on existing alignments from Albion to Airport West and 7kms of elevated new build from Airport West to the Airport, with 1 new station and 18kms of electrification. Should cost 3 to 4 Billion tops.


Michael
I said the possibility of an extra depo to the western side to accommodate the extra trains. If not the extra depo, you'd need to seriously expand the current ones. Either option would cost a bunch of money. The current depo never envisioned for the Airport line into the mix. Easy 500 million for expansion or building another depo.

The trains are largely covered by the original order for the HCMT. The 65 train order only caters for the Sunbury, Pakenham and Cranbourne corridors. 37 were needed for the South East. And 28 were needed for the Sunbury line.

Since you'll have trains every 10 minutes to the Airport and it's about a 20-kilometre line, you say you need more than 4 and 5 trains, completely underestimating here. You'd need about 15-20 trains, which costs quite a bit of extra money. 500-750 million

The train and expanded depo add another billion dollars to the project, a significant amount. This is why you can't judge the damn thing until they release more of the final details, the scope of the works will heavily affect the price of the project.
True Believers
$500 Billion for a Depot, Really? Well, the massive state-of-the-art Craigieburn Train Maintenance Facility, only cost $78 Million in 2010. The scope for the Airport Line has been reduced as it will just piggy back onto MM1 south of Albion. So for 10km of new track pair and 7km of elevated pair plus 1 new station. Still believe it should not cost more than between $3 to $4 Billion including the new bridge, station, electrification and extra trains.

The Sydney Metro CBD and South West project. Consisting of 31kms of Track including 16km of twin tunnel under the Sydney Harbour, 5 New Underground Stations, 2 sets of Underground platforms under existing Stations and the conversion of 10 Stations and 15km of Track to Metro Standards is budgeted for $15.5 Billion.

Michael
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

$500 Billion for a Depot, Really? Well, the massive state-of-the-art Craigieburn Train Maintenance Facility, only cost $78 Million in 2010. The scope for the Airport Line has been reduced as it will just piggy back onto MM1 south of Albion. So for 10km of new track pair and 7km of elevated pair plus 1 new station. Still believe it should not cost more than between $3 to $4 Billion including the new bridge, station, electrification and extra trains.

The Sydney Metro CBD and South West project. Consisting of 31kms of Track including 16km of twin tunnel under the Sydney Harbour, 5 New Underground Stations, 2 sets of Underground platforms under existing Stations and the conversion of 10 Stations and 15km of Track to Metro Standards is budgeted for $15.5 Billion.

Michael
mejhammers1
With inflation that cost is almost 100 million for the depo. Anyways railway infrastructure back in 2010 was built at much cheaper costs because we didn't have all these unplanned megaprojects all coming about which to be fair has inflated the prices further.

500 million wasn't a fair number, maybe around the ballpark 200-300 million if done in the current environment. And yeah I was right about you underestimating the number of trains though.

I would argue the scope of the Airport line before was unknown, mostly guesswork at the time. That express tunnel was just a political statement to win the state election.

You keep missing the 1-2 kilometre of tunnels that it would probably need. 10 kilometres of track pair, a bridge and station, 7 kilometres of elevated rail, plus new trains, a possible depo expansion, and some tunnels.

Also while there are no tracks needed btw the city and Sunshine, there would need to disrupt lines to integrate them into the network.

We don't know the scope of the Sunshine station rebuild. They could completely add an underground platform, god knows what.

Because of these variables, my judgement is we have no real idea what the exact costs will be until they've announced all the details, which I suspect would be in the business case unless they keep these details confidential.

Cost inflation in construction has affected Sydney, not just Melbourne, and has increased the costings of their new upcoming projects, so I wouldn't be surprised if their project goes way above their original estimates too.

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