What is the difference between Class 2 track and Class 2U track?

 
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Apologies if this should be in signalling and infrastructure, but I thought it best to start this thread in Victoria, as the question is Victoria related.

I see references in Vicsig (and elsewhere) to class 2 and class 2U track. Can someone please explain the differences. I assume it may have something to do with rail weight, sleeper type, or a combination of the two.

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  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Apologies if this should be in signalling and infrastructure, but I thought it best to start this thread in Victoria, as the question is Victoria related.

I see references in Vicsig (and elsewhere) to class 2 and class 2U track. Can someone please explain the differences. I assume it may have something to do with rail weight, sleeper type, or a combination of the two.
Duncs
It is Class-2M  track.

Class - 2 is 47kg/94lb these days CWR on timber or mixed timber and low profile concrete sleepers.  Typically  115kmh for both loco hauled and DMU.

Class 2M -  is generally min 47kg/94lb rail CWR on all concrete sleepers allowing loco hauled 115 kmh and DMU 130 kmh.

Seymour - Shepp is getting upgraded from Class - 3 to Class 2M to allow 130kmh Vlocity operation to Shepparton.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Would it not be simpler to have 1, 2, 3, 4, .... 99 class track? Smile
No doubt there is a reason.
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Would it not be simpler to have 1, 2, 3, 4, .... 99 class track? Smile
No doubt there is a reason.
YM-Mundrabilla
I think they did exactly that, and then somebody decided they needed a classification between classes 1 & 2.  Rather than calling it class 1.5 track, they called it class 2M because reasons.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Apologies if this should be in signalling and infrastructure, but I thought it best to start this thread in Victoria, as the question is Victoria related.

I see references in Vicsig (and elsewhere) to class 2 and class 2U track. Can someone please explain the differences. I assume it may have something to do with rail weight, sleeper type, or a combination of the two.
It is Class-2M  track.

Class - 2 is 47kg/94lb these days CWR on timber or mixed timber and low profile concrete sleepers.  Typically  115kmh for both loco hauled and DMU.

Class 2M -  is generally min 47kg/94lb rail CWR on all concrete sleepers allowing loco hauled 115 kmh and DMU 130 kmh.

Seymour - Shepp is getting upgraded from Class - 3 to Class 2M to allow 130kmh Vlocity operation to Shepparton.
kuldalai
Does classification also include things such as level crossings being protected versus not protected... or is it purely just the sleeper and rail types involved?

It strikes me that we should have a programme of work to upgrade all lines which see passenger service to 2M / 130kph - that's a comparable speed to much of France, UK, Germany away from the big mainlines that are 160kph (that we have already) or up to 200kph etc.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Would it not be simpler to have 1, 2, 3, 4, .... 99 class track? Smile
No doubt there is a reason.
YM-Mundrabilla
Would be simpler to have a nationally consistent system so we all know what were talking about, no?

Oh sorry this is rail were talking about.  I thought i was on airliners.net where it is INTERNATIONALLY consistent.
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
V/Lines track classification standards show the rail profile of class 2 track as being selectively managed over portions of the track where as class 2M it is managed across its entire length, which is where the M comes from. Class 2M also requires resilient fastenings such as a pandrol clip instead of dog spikes.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Hi Everyone

Thanks for all those answers. It clears up a mystery.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

This is helpful info.  I suspect that V/line are still working out whether to make Epsom to Echuca Class 2 (115 km/h) or 2M (130 km/h)...  

How long does it take them to make a decision?

The other bugbear is the slow East Track from Kyneton to Sunbury awaiting an upgrade to 2M.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

This is helpful info.  I suspect that V/line are still working out whether to make Epsom to Echuca Class 2 (115 km/h) or 2M (130 km/h)...  

How long does it take them to make a decision?

The other bugbear is the slow East Track from Kyneton to Sunbury awaiting an upgrade to 2M.
Carnot
It appears that from what I head sometime ago that Echuca will be class 2 115kph. At least for now. I would do the same for Bendigo to Swan Hill.

Kyneton to Sunbury should go straight to Class 1. As should sections of the line to Traralgon that have not yet been upgraded.

Then get Traralgon to Bairnsdale up to class 2. Then Traralgon to Sale up to class 2M.
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
Would be simpler to have a nationally consistent system so we all know what were talking about, no?
james.au
It is possibly true that classes 1 .. 5 were the same in the various states.

Thus in NSW Class 1 was 53kg/m rail, with speeds governed by speedboards.

Class 2 is 47kg/m, etc.
Class 3 is 40kg/m.
Class 5 is 30kg/m.

When 60kg/m rail came is was called class 1X (rather than class 0 which would have been more logical).

Class 1 with 53kg/m rail on concrete sleepers got called class 1C.

Class 1 with both 60kg/m rail and concrete sleepers became Class 1XC.

Similarly batteries are called D, C, A, AA, AAA, as they get smaller. B seems to be missing?

Model railway gauges are called 3, 2, 1, 0, 00, HO, TT, N, HOn9 etc. Was there a 000 gauge?

Stars are classed O, B, A, F, G, K, and M, ; which is illogical because they  changed their minds half way through the classification process

Clothes sizes go XXS XS S M L XL XXL XXXL etc.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Glad that you all understand because it looks like a typical modern rail 'break of gauge solution' to me.
My only comment is never use the alpha O and the numeric 1 in any context where the two may be confused with either zero or 1 (one). This is why alphas I and O are not used as check letters in wagon identifications.
Sadly, the airline industry does not recognise passenger confusion in this way with Passenger Boarding Passes especially with the airy fairy modern fonts that are often used where I, 1,O 0 all look the same.
There is a good case for use of the European Ø to represent zero.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Track Class is independent of lx protection.  So Warrnambool - Geelong is Class-2 then the lx are rated due to risk , irrespective of track class Sprinter & Vlocity  are 80kmh over all un-protected lx.

VLP do not determine what track standard will be upgraded to between Bendigo & Echuca that is job for RPV to maximize the line speed between Bendigo and Echuca within the available project budget.  Niow with all lx protected on that line Class - 3 track as is should be OK for Vlocity at 100kmh, above that would need probably greater ballast depth and more concrete sleepers in track.  IIRC the announced target speed is 100kmh first up saving 15 minutes.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Track Class is independent of lx protection.  So Warrnambool - Geelong is Class-2 then the lx are rated due to risk , irrespective of track class Sprinter & Vlocity  are 80kmh over all un-protected lx.

VLP do not determine what track standard will be upgraded to between Bendigo & Echuca that is job for RPV to maximize the line speed between Bendigo and Echuca within the available project budget.  Niow with all lx protected on that line Class - 3 track as is should be OK for Vlocity at 100kmh, above that would need probably greater ballast depth and more concrete sleepers in track.  IIRC the announced target speed is 100kmh first up saving 15 minutes.
kuldalai
Well that is a start. But up scaling to 115kmh should happen asap after that, so increasing the time saving further.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW

Sadly, the airline industry does not recognise passenger confusion in this way with Passenger Boarding Passes especially with the airy fairy modern fonts that are often used where I, 1,O 0 all look the same.
There is a good case for use of the European Ø to represent zero.
YM-Mundrabilla
Numbers on boarding passes are largely irrelevant now - its all barcoded and 99.999% of the passenger movement transactions are managed with the barcode now instead of someone reading the numbers.

I do like the idea of Ø as a replacement for 0/O though.  Get a bit of scandi back into our language.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

This is helpful info.  I suspect that V/line are still working out whether to make Epsom to Echuca Class 2 (115 km/h) or 2M (130 km/h)...  

How long does it take them to make a decision?

The other bugbear is the slow East Track from Kyneton to Sunbury awaiting an upgrade to 2M.
Carnot
Don't forget that the speed rating is related to axle load.   A Velocity is 19t while a Sprinter is 16t (there abouts).  

It was not that long ago all rail cars on the north line in Gippsland were happily doing 130km/hr until it was pointed out that a Velocity should not be doing so due to its weight.   The speeds quietly reduced.   This brings a dilemma for the chronically crippled decision making in Vline.   They can admit their incompetence for allowing it to happen without engineering oversight.  Or, the can accept that it worked just fine (like it for many years) and actually authorise the practice is acceptable.  Oh no, just hide it and slow things down to be 'safe' and 'blameless'.
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
It was not that long ago all rail cars on the north line in Gippsland were happily doing 130km/hr until it was pointed out that a Velocity should not be doing so due to its weight. The speeds quietly reduced.
skitz
Gippsland North line is still 130km/h for Vlocity, the reduction in speed was only temporary down there. Craigieburn - Seymour and Sunbury - Kyneton East line are still reduced to 115km/h as they're both class 2 track, Gippsland North line is class 2M.

Or, the can accept that it worked just fine (like it for many years) and actually authorise the practice is acceptable. Oh no, just hide it and slow things down to be 'safe' and 'blameless'.
skitz
I understand your sentiment however the good old 'she'll be be right mate, we've been doing it that way for years' attitude doesn't go down well when you're standing in front of a Worksafe or ATSB investigation or worse - the coroners court, when you're trying to explain why you let something continue after it was found to be outside of the design specifications or standards.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

It was not that long ago all rail cars on the north line in Gippsland were happily doing 130km/hr until it was pointed out that a Velocity should not be doing so due to its weight. The speeds quietly reduced.
Gippsland North line is still 130km/h for Vlocity, the reduction in speed was only temporary down there. Craigieburn - Seymour and Sunbury - Kyneton East line are still reduced to 115km/h as they're both class 2 track, Gippsland North line is class 2M.
jakar
My understanding is that Craigieburn - Seymour will all get upgraded to Class 2M as part of the Shepparton RRV project (unless I'm mistaken).

That would mean all single gauge BG Concrete sleepers on both BG tracks.  You can kiss the centre track going SG goodbye.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Duncs if we go back to your original question, regarding the 2U track, I had a bit of a trawl around and found this.

https://Railpage.com.au/f-po-quote-2084345.htm

So roughly seems a 2U track allowed for 140k running on wooden sleepers and a few other bit's thrown in as well.

The 2M track seems to have been evolved more than likely from the 2U track to cater for the heavier axle load of the new long distance V'lo's with their reinforced frontend collision protection.

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-po-quote-2165945.htm

I also seem to recall it was something like a 3U track on the Gippsland line, that allowed for 115 running of an N Class on certain weight rail and wooden sleepers and that was in the same period of time the 2U track was still listed.

BigShunter.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Duncs if we go back to your original question, regarding the 2U track, I had a bit of a trawl around and found this.

https://Railpage.com.au/f-po-quote-2084345.htm

So roughly seems a 2U track allowed for 140k running on wooden sleepers and a few other bit's thrown in as well.

The 2M track seems to have been evolved more than likely from the 2U track to cater for the heavier axle load of the new long distance V'lo's with their reinforced frontend collision protection.

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-po-quote-2165945.htm

I also seem to recall it was something like a 3U track on the Gippsland line, that allowed for 115 running of an N Class on certain weight rail and wooden sleepers and that was in the same period of time the 2U track was still listed.

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Thanks BigShunter. That fills in a few more knowledge gaps quite nicely.

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