Aussie politics thread (2)

 
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
A car is basically simple modern piece of hardware that is easily made in third world economies. The design of the car is however a different story and most cars are hence designed in Developed economies.

The main complexity in a car assembly line is QC, hence why the much of the QC teams from Australia's former car assembly plants found employment supporting assembly lines in Thailand and other locations and Ford, Toyota and until recently GM retained design teams in Australia and the former assembly plant operators were made redundant.
RTT_Rules
And a military project is a much more complicated and sophisticated project, right RTT_Rules? Because you have a similar set-up, a chain of suppliers and contractors all doing their bit towards the project - which is why the French are going to have their contract taken off them after promising to provide local work in order to win the contract to begin with.

Nothing you've said makes any sense, of course those two things are similar.
One more time for the Dummies Don, complex large Military hardware projects have a long history of going over budget and over time. A few examples include the Russian Aircraft carrier, the Chinese copy, the US's latest I think Ford class aircraft carrier and just about every fighter jet every built in the US and likely France, Sweden, Russia etc etc for years. Classic case of the military chief's having eyes bigger than their budgets teased by manufacturers who claim their "latest" technology is better than the competition, yet in reality none of it rarely exists and not up to standard, over promising and under delivering. Space industry is no different. While Don may continue with his unpatriotic approach to design his fellow South Australian's a generation of jobs, thankfully others are thinking otherwise and this includes the govt managing the project and has not signed with France because it won't let the French take the jobs on shore (likely due to similar French govt/union pressure). In addition we have today's announcement of the Australia designed and assembled Loyal Wingman project supported by Boeing.
RTT_Rules
It's not JUST about the fact that it hasn't started but its already blown out by tens of billions - its about the lies of the Naval group telling the government that they were going to have 90% of the production of the submarines based in this country domestically - but then said 60% - but then won't commit to that either.

So why not just buy fully imported at a cheaper price?

Sponsored advertisement

  allan Chief Commissioner

And the maintenance could be outsourced too. I'm sure that a Chinese quote would be competitive...
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
And the maintenance could be outsourced too. I'm sure that a Chinese quote would be competitive...
allan
I'm beginning to think we should just cave in to the People's Republic too, I'm starting to think we can't exist without them. They buy an astonishing 90% of all the wool we sell internationally I learnt the other day. Once upon a time we made all sorts of things on-shore with it, now only two mills in Australia, Waverley in Launceston TAS and Creswick in VIC. All the other domestic wool production pretty much has to go to China bar the superfine stuff for Italy.

Maybe we should just cave and set up the concentration camps for anti-CCP people right now. Every single one of us on Railpage who haven't posted 100% positive things about the CCP for the last several years.

All of you I'm afraid, but not me. And not Dangersdan, he loves the CCP like I do Wink
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
Charming  
https://www.themonthly.com.au/today/rachel-withers/2021/04/2021/1614833230/if-he-did-it

And some of the links left me stunned
"wobert"


What is this junk? Written by a 'journalist' who has done freelance stuff for  Slate, Vox, The Guardian, Medium, Jezebel, Crikey, and Junkee. Jezebel is part of the internet toilet known as Gawker Media.

As for 'The Monthly' just take a look at some of the contributor list on Wiki. What a suprise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monthly
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
And a military project is a much more complicated and sophisticated project, right RTT_Rules? Because you have a similar set-up, a chain of suppliers and contractors all doing their bit towards the project - which is why the French are going to have their contract taken off them after promising to provide local work in order to win the contract to begin with. Nothing you've said makes any sense, of course those two things are similar.
Don Waffled
The subs 12, repeat that 12 built over 20 + years is hardly a production line Don. But yes there will be a supply chain of sorts. Of course the French govt wants to on shore as much work as they can, every supplier of subs or anything else would be the same.

Don, you indicated we couldn't build a sub because we couldn't build a car, then you come back with above. Please pick a side in your arguments and stick with it and you may actually be able to follow the response.


It's not JUST about the fact that it hasn't started but its already blown out by tens of billions - its about the lies of the Naval group telling the government that they were going to have 90% of the production of the submarines based in this country domestically - but then said 60% - but then won't commit to that either. So why not just buy fully imported at a cheaper price?
Don Waffled
Here you again, the countries most unpatriotic Australian throwing thousands of skilled jobs to the French to suit your half baked agenda, Don you are completely unbelievable. Actually its even worse, as its your fellow South Australians you are throwing to the lines of welfare or forced inter state migration, again, completely unbelievable.

$10B's extra, Don where do you get this from?

It's not JUST about the fact that it hasn't started but its already blown out by tens of billions - its about the lies of the Naval group telling the government that they were going to have 90% of the production of the submarines based in this country domestically - but then said 60% - but then won't commit to that either.

So why not just buy fully imported at a cheaper price?

The price has always been in the $80B+ range, even if imported. Remember this is the total program cost, not the unit price cost.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/defence-knew-submarines-would-cost-almost-80b-five-years-ago-20201012-p564ea.html

Defence officials knew Australia's new fleet of attack submarines would cost almost $80 billion as early as 2015, despite publicly stating at the time the estimated price tag was $50 billion.

"There is now evidence which proves the government knew for years there was a $30 billion cost difference between what they knew and what they were telling the Australian public," he said. "The question here is, why is the government hiding what they knew? Why has the government continued to lie about this for years?"
Marcus Hellyer, a senior analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, said the revelations suggested the estimates were "deliberately sanitised to take the sting out of it".

"One would suspect if they did give a band, the submarines would be $50 billion to $100 billion, and it would be such a huge number it would terrify the Australian public into not wanting to go down that path," he said.

The program cost I believe includes the full lifecycle cost to the taxpayer, not just purchase.

As for the domestic component, 90% was always unrealistic if indeed ever realistically quoted. 60-70% is more likely a realistic and ironically aligned to the former local car industry. The high priced components for the sub that will no doubt be imported is the drive train, batteries, much of the electronic hardware and specialized systems. Not sure where the RAN intends to get the war system from.

Comments on why the Japanese was not ultimately selected by the Navy and Aust Govt include a number of basic reasons such as not suited to large open water sailing and lack of crew comfort for long tours away from port, but also the ability to convert the French model yet to be started construction to nuclear if and when required at short notice.

Once again the key advantages of building domestic are
- 10,000's of jobs for over a generation.
- increasing skills for Australia workers
- less money sent off shore
- developing an industry, facilities, infrastructure and supply chain that is capable to undertake dry-docking, mid-life upgrades, minor and major repairs domestically.

All but one potential supplier was European based, the other Japanese. As the purpose of buying this hardware is mainly to maintain a strategic defense against China and other potential SE asian countries, not having the capability for onshore repairs and upgrades forcing the boats to be returned to the port of construction for such work is I would have thought a strategic risk.

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
And the maintenance could be outsourced too. I'm sure that a Chinese quote would be competitive...
I'm beginning to think we should just cave in to the People's Republic too,
don_dunstan
Another quote from the Unpatriotic Australian?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Charming  
https://www.themonthly.com.au/today/rachel-withers/2021/04/2021/1614833230/if-he-did-it

And some of the links left me stunned


What is this junk? Written by a 'journalist' who has done freelance stuff for  Slate, Vox, The Guardian, Medium, Jezebel, Crikey, and Junkee. Jezebel is part of the internet toilet known as Gawker Media.

As for 'The Monthly' just take a look at some of the contributor list on Wiki. What a suprise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monthly
K160
"Journalist" is saying we don't believe the police investigation, so lets slander the accused as much as possible by playing on emotion rather than facts available.

Yes unfortunately rape is one of those crimes that if she doesn't come forward within 1-2 days, the likelihood of conviction deteriorates rapidly unless there is an eyewitness.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Charming  
https://www.themonthly.com.au/today/rachel-withers/2021/04/2021/1614833230/if-he-did-it

And some of the links left me stunned


What is this junk? Written by a 'journalist' who has done freelance stuff for  Slate, Vox, The Guardian, Medium, Jezebel, Crikey, and Junkee. Jezebel is part of the internet toilet known as Gawker Media.

As for 'The Monthly' just take a look at some of the contributor list on Wiki. What a suprise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monthly
Okay Boomer
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Once again the key advantages of building domestic are
- 10,000's of jobs for over a generation.
- increasing skills for Australia workers
- less money sent off shore
- developing an industry, facilities, infrastructure and supply chain that is capable to undertake dry-docking, mid-life upgrades, minor and major repairs domestically.
RTT_Rules
Number one, if you change my name again when responding to me I'll get this thread shut down. It's all the rage on this board to shut down threads for the merest infraction (or offense taken) so I'm going to start doing it myself.

Number two - what you've written above there is complete rubbish. Not based it fact. It's why the submarine contract is going to be cancelled - because there will NOT be tens of thousands of jobs for Australians, there will NOT be training and employment for Australians and almost all the production of the sophisticated components WILL BE OFF-SHORE.

This is the third time I've told you about the reality of what the Naval contract actually is and you just continue to ignore it in the false belief that there's going to be a smorgasbord of jobs for locals.

There's not, the French have told the government that they are breaking the terms of their contract and the majority of the fit-out will be made in Europe where there are existing supply chains and existing suppliers. That's why the contract is being cancelled. What part of that don't you understand?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
And the maintenance could be outsourced too. I'm sure that a Chinese quote would be competitive...
I'm beginning to think we should just cave in to the People's Republic too,
Another quote from the Unpatriotic Australian?
RTT_Rules
There's a lot of people in this country who believe we should simply surrender a couple of centuries of liberal democracy, independent judiciary and the rule of law to the Chinese Communist Party: Most the Labor Party to begin with.

There could be lots of advantages to going communist: The shutting down of that enormous pork barrel that is Club Burley-Griffin for a start. The putting of any dissenters into a remote 're-education' camps; the removal of any political discourse from public life (the party will do all the decisions for us from now on).

What's not to like?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Once again the key advantages of building domestic are
- 10,000's of jobs for over a generation.
- increasing skills for Australia workers
- less money sent off shore
- developing an industry, facilities, infrastructure and supply chain that is capable to undertake dry-docking, mid-life upgrades, minor and major repairs domestically.
Number one, if you change my name again when responding to me I'll get this thread shut down. It's all the rage on this board to shut down threads for the merest infraction (or offense taken) so I'm going to start doing it myself.

Number two - what you've written above there is complete rubbish. Not based it fact. It's why the submarine contract is going to be cancelled - because there will NOT be tens of thousands of jobs for Australians, there will NOT be training and employment for Australians and almost all the production of the sophisticated components WILL BE OFF-SHORE.

This is the third time I've told you about the reality of what the Naval contract actually is and you just continue to ignore it in the false belief that there's going to be a smorgasbord of jobs for locals.

There's not, the French have told the government that they are breaking the terms of their contract and the majority of the fit-out will be made in Europe where there are existing supply chains and existing suppliers. That's why the contract is being cancelled. What part of that don't you understand?
don_dunstan
#1 Those in glass houses should not speak, especially when what I said was true.

#2 Don, you waffled on for years about closure of car industry. Yet now are in denial of the EXACT SAME THING and as we previously discussed a sub is far more complicated than a car.

#3 This is the third time you have waffled on, doesn't make it right.

#4 IF you want to do the fit out in the EU, then the boat has to be built in the EU, the original intent is to build the boat in Australia using steal made and sourced in Australia.

#5 Who said the contract is being cancelled? What we have seen is unlike your unpatriotic position of throwing billions of dollars off shore and pi$$ 1000's to 10,000's of Australian jobs against the wall, the govt is defending it position to maximise the number of jobs in Australia from this very large capital outlay.  

https://www.innovationaus.com/full-steam-ahead-for-sub-project-construction/

There are other numerous references that indicate the cancelling the sub contract will be an absolute last straw due to diplomatic reasons. Remember who is in the box seat, France or Australia. Australia says France, this is how its going to be. France says no we want more money to be spent in France, Australia says take what your offered or we buy Japanese and you get zip....

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/90b-french-subs-project-could-sink-20210224-p575e5

What part of this do you understand?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
And the maintenance could be outsourced too. I'm sure that a Chinese quote would be competitive...
I'm beginning to think we should just cave in to the People's Republic too,
Another quote from the Unpatriotic Australian?
There's a lot of people in this country who believe we should simply surrender a couple of centuries of liberal democracy, independent judiciary and the rule of law to the Chinese Communist Party: Most the Labor Party to begin with.

There could be lots of advantages to going communist: The shutting down of that enormous pork barrel that is Club Burley-Griffin for a start. The putting of any dissenters into a remote 're-education' camps; the removal of any political discourse from public life (the party will do all the decisions for us from now on).

What's not to like?
don_dunstan
Outside only a few maybe in the Chinese embassy and even that's questionable, apart from a few hard left wako's mostly still at uni I doubt there are many at all.

Obviously there are some advantages living in a Totalian country, I live in one and yes it has some advantages over a western democracy especially when there is a pandemic.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
#1 Those in glass houses should not speak, especially when what I said was true.

#2 Don, you waffled on for years about closure of car industry. Yet now are in denial of the EXACT SAME THING and as we previously discussed a sub is far more complicated than a car.

#3 This is the third time you have waffled on, doesn't make it right.

#4 IF you want to do the fit out in the EU, then the boat has to be built in the EU, the original intent is to build the boat in Australia using steal made and sourced in Australia.

#5 Who said the contract is being cancelled? What we have seen is unlike your unpatriotic position of throwing billions of dollars off shore and pi$$ 1000's to 10,000's of Australian jobs against the wall, the govt is defending it position to maximise the number of jobs in Australia from this very large capital outlay.  

https://www.innovationaus.com/full-steam-ahead-for-sub-project-construction/

There are other numerous references that indicate the cancelling the sub contract will be an absolute last straw due to diplomatic reasons. Remember who is in the box seat, France or Australia. Australia says France, this is how its going to be. France says no we want more money to be spent in France, Australia says take what your offered or we buy Japanese and you get zip....

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/90b-french-subs-project-could-sink-20210224-p575e5

What part of this do you understand?
RTT_Rules
Yeah see as usual nothing you've said here make any sense, nor does it have any connection to the facts of the matter.

The facts are thus:

The French company Naval signs a contract with the Commonwealth that guarantees that 90% of the supply chains and manufacture of the fit out will be based in Australia. Fast forward to 2020 and now they're saying that only 60% of the supply of the fit out will be on-shore. And then recently where the Naval group says that 60% is also not achievable.

They're clearly in breach of the terms of their contract which is why the contract will be cancelled. End-of-story. Nothing else that you've said there has any relevance to the cancellation of the contract because the basic fact remains that Naval have made no effort whatsoever to fulfill the local content requirement.

Which is kinda critical really since the whole idea of spending the odd-$100 billion plus here was to have a big work-for-the-dole for South Australia (in particular) but they're refusing to do that now so off-shore it goes.

It's really quite simple and you're trying to make it complicated. But then what else would you expect from the man who is the board Waffle King.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
And the maintenance could be outsourced too. I'm sure that a Chinese quote would be competitive...
I'm beginning to think we should just cave in to the People's Republic too,
Another quote from the Unpatriotic Australian?
There's a lot of people in this country who believe we should simply surrender a couple of centuries of liberal democracy, independent judiciary and the rule of law to the Chinese Communist Party: Most the Labor Party to begin with.

There could be lots of advantages to going communist: The shutting down of that enormous pork barrel that is Club Burley-Griffin for a start. The putting of any dissenters into a remote 're-education' camps; the removal of any political discourse from public life (the party will do all the decisions for us from now on).

What's not to like?
Outside only a few maybe in the Chinese embassy and even that's questionable, apart from a few hard left wako's mostly still at uni I doubt there are many at all.

Obviously there are some advantages living in a Totalian country, I live in one and yes it has some advantages over a western democracy especially when there is a pandemic.
RTT_Rules
Trust you to love the all-embracing arms of a one-party state. "It was really great living in a dictatorship during COVID" - LOL.

And there's lots of people in the Labor Party (in particular) who think that we should give the Chinese Communist Party exactly what they're asking for - witness the luminaries in the party like Bob Carr, Kevin Rudd and Paul Keating demanding that we should give them 'special treatment'. There's a lot of the parliamentary Labor Party who agree with them, believe me.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
As for 'The Monthly' just take a look at some of the contributor list on Wiki. What a surprise.
"K160"
I just did, and there are some distinguished names in there. What's your take on them?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yeah see as usual nothing you've said here make any sense, nor does it have any connection to the facts of the matter. The facts are thus: The French company Naval signs a contract with the Commonwealth that guarantees that 90% of the supply chains and manufacture of the fit out will be based in Australia. Fast forward to 2020 and now they're saying that only 60% of the supply of the fit out will be on-shore. And then recently where the Naval group says that 60% is also not achievable. They're clearly in breach of the terms of their contract which is why the contract will be cancelled. End-of-story. Nothing else that you've said there has any relevance to the cancellation of the contract because the basic fact remains that Naval have made no effort whatsoever to fulfill the local content requirement. Which is kinda critical really since the whole idea of spending the odd-$100 billion plus here was to have a big work-for-the-dole for South Australia (in particular) but they're refusing to do that now so off-shore it goes. It's really quite simple and you're trying to make it complicated. But then what else would you expect from the man who is the board Waffle King.
Don continues...

Don,
You are adding 1+1 to equal 10,000. The contract has not been cancelled and very unlikely will be cancelled.

Once again your lack of patriotism to support your own state is amazing. You care so little for your fellow Sth Australian's future how do you look at them in the eye?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Trust you to love the all-embracing arms of a one-party state. "It was really great living in a dictatorship during COVID" - LOL.

And there's lots of people in the Labor Party (in particular) who think that we should give the Chinese Communist Party exactly what they're asking for - witness the luminaries in the party like Bob Carr, Kevin Rudd and Paul Keating demanding that we should give them 'special treatment'. There's a lot of the parliamentary Labor Party who agree with them, believe me.
don_dunstan
No, didn't say I loved it.

The special treatment should include a fleet of submarines built in Australia that along with the rest of the Pacific we can combined tell them how its going to be.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Don,
You are adding 1+1 to equal 10,000. The contract has not been cancelled and very unlikely will be cancelled.

Once again your lack of patriotism to support your own state is amazing. You care so little for your fellow Sth Australian's future how do you look at them in the eye?
Waffle King
Those jobs don't exist. They never existed in the first place, they were just a lie to get the Turnbull government to sign the contract, and now the lie has been discovered they're going to cancel the contract. Minister Marise Payne was going to announce the review herself a while back but for some reason has been on 'sick leave' for the last few weeks...

Anyway South Australians are used to be lied to about jobs, Waffles. We get lied to all the time. We were told a few years back that there would be 20,000 'space jobs', amazingly all based right here building satellites, launching rockets etc. And what happened? Nothing. One more lie about highly skilled, high pay jobs being exposed as fake will not shock people here in the least.

EDIT: Linda Reynolds is the Defence Minister (formerly it was Marise Payne) who is presently on sick leave - I got those two mixed up - mea culpa. But yeah I read that she was due to give an announcement at the National Press Club about the future of the Attack Class project when she suddenly went on sick leave at the advice of her cardiologist.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Strangely enough Marise Payne is 'acting' Defense Minister and she's due to answer questions on behalf of the government at a Senate Estimates committee this week - so maybe we'll be officially told about the review into the Attack Class project then.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Gents, Youtuber Sub Brief is going to re-stream his take on the Attack Class sub in about 16 hours. He is a former USN Sonarman and creates videos documenting various historical and current submarines. Although I don't always agree with every detail or conclusion he is pretty balanced, not your typical 'Murica best at everything type guy. Definitely THE Youtuber to go to when it comes to submarines.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vnciriE_Q
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
Charming  
https://www.themonthly.com.au/today/rachel-withers/2021/04/2021/1614833230/if-he-did-it

And some of the links left me stunned


What is this junk? Written by a 'journalist' who has done freelance stuff for  Slate, Vox, The Guardian, Medium, Jezebel, Crikey, and Junkee. Jezebel is part of the internet toilet known as Gawker Media.

As for 'The Monthly' just take a look at some of the contributor list on Wiki. What a suprise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monthly
Okay Boomer
wobert

Yeah Okay Bed-wetter. Rolling Eyes
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
So you condone sexual assault, I'm glad we've got that settled.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Strangely enough Marise Payne is 'acting' Defense Minister and she's due to answer questions on behalf of the government at a Senate Estimates committee this week - so maybe we'll be officially told about the review into the Attack Class project then.
don_dunstan
Don't hold your breath.
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
As for 'The Monthly' just take a look at some of the contributor list on Wiki. What a surprise.
I just did, and there are some distinguished names in there. What's your take on them?
Valvegear
Yes....some distinguished names in there (such as Paul Kelly). I wouldn't put Rudd or Turnbull in that category myself.
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
So you condone sexual assault, I'm glad we've got that settled.
wobert
Going to presume you meant me in that reply (you didn't quote me but whatever).

Do you want the inquiry into the historic case because:

A) You have solid proof that the Police were wrong to close the original investigation and therefore you know better?
B) You strongly believe it will give you the answer you want.
C) You believe that Porter is Guilty because an accusation was made against him and then withdrawn?

Replying with the 'ok boomer' trope implies you watch too much 'FriendlyJordies' types on YouTube and taken it verbatim. It also means you got too lazy to have a go at picking apart what I said. Hence I responded in kind and it got your back up didn't it. So you threw another lazy reply out to feed your ego.

When I read an article from a source I've not seen before I prefer to research who wrote it and their credentials. I also look at what other articles the author has written. Clearly the 'Journalist' has picked a side when you read the other articles they have written on The Monthly.

A woman died 2 years ago and some are trying to make political mileage out of it only because the media (some who are already bad enough) have reported on it in the last week. It is disgusting.

I don't condone proven cases of sexual assault. I also don't condone witch-hunts regardless of whom may be involved. Do you condone the later?

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