Metro Rail Tunnel - Building Thread

 
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Finally, an update on the progress of the TBMs.
Joan's dug a huge 18m southbound while Millie is northbound at 973m and Alice at 300m, which means Millie is past the half way mark and Alice has covered a sixth of the 1.8Km.

https://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/construction/building-the-tunnels-and-stations/tunnel-boring-machines/tbm-tracker

Neil

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  Peter Spyker Train Controller

What gets done with the TBMs when they're finished with this? Has enough work been done on the SRL loop to move them straight onto that?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

What gets done with the TBMs when they're finished with this? Has enough work been done on the SRL loop to move them straight onto that?
Peter Spyker
Might be cheaper to buy new TBMs if the diameter difference across 50+ km of tunnel is enough.

(note: I believe that the SRL would use smaller tunnels if going medium-rail, more akin to a subway sized train that can still go 100km/hr or more, hopefully 130+. Singapore has trains like this)
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

What gets done with the TBMs when they're finished with this? Has enough work been done on the SRL loop to move them straight onto that?
Might be cheaper to buy new TBMs if the diameter difference across 50+ km of tunnel is enough.

(note: I believe that the SRL would use smaller tunnels if going medium-rail, more akin to a subway sized train that can still go 100km/hr or more, hopefully 130+. Singapore has trains like this)
John.Z
How much $$$ savings are we (potentially, theoretically) talking here?  If the SRL is (at this stage) supposed  to share tracks with the airport line, then trains will have to be compatible with the rest of the network (voltage, platform accessibility, etc).  Is that particularly feasible with smaller trains?
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
If you want to find out more, go read the SRL thread at https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11398258-s925.htm. Nothing much has been done towards getting SRL underway since serious work on it isn't starting until 2022, so no TBM is going to start digging for that  project this year.
Lots of info in that thread about what we know is going to happen with that; e.g. AC traction power, not DC,
The bulk of the 4 TBMs working on MM1 will be refurbished and re-used, probably in the SRL project, but there are going to have to be new shields constructed before the rest of the equipment is re-used as the originals are, somehow, going to be incorporated into Town Hall Station, as recorded earlier in this thread.

Neil
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

How much $$$ savings are we (potentially, theoretically) talking here?  If the SRL is (at this stage) supposed  to share tracks with the airport line, then trains will have to be compatible with the rest of the network (voltage, platform accessibility, etc).  Is that particularly feasible with smaller trains?
Djebel
That I'm not sure.

The SRL won't share tracks with the MARL. I am convinced that the section west of the Airport is at present just a line on a map to satisfy the electorate that the west hasn't been ignored even though that section is 30 years away from being built.

Given time, the SRL will continue more as a loop, going via watergardens, caroline springs and tarneit before terminating at werribee.

My other assumption is that each stage will be it's own individual line (Southland to Box Hill, Box Hill to Airport, Airport to Werribee). This is to avoid cascading delays which are inevitable over such a long distance. Same goes for the 903 bus.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

The western section of SRL on the current 'plan' really is just lines on a map, IMO its going to change.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
How much $$$ savings are we (potentially, theoretically) talking here?  If the SRL is (at this stage) supposed  to share tracks with the airport line, then trains will have to be compatible with the rest of the network (voltage, platform accessibility, etc).  Is that particularly feasible with smaller trains?
That I'm not sure.

The SRL won't share tracks with the MARL. I am convinced that the section west of the Airport is at present just a line on a map to satisfy the electorate that the west hasn't been ignored even though that section is 30 years away from being built.

Given time, the SRL will continue more as a loop, going via watergardens, caroline springs and tarneit before terminating at werribee.

My other assumption is that each stage will be it's own individual line (Southland to Box Hill, Box Hill to Airport, Airport to Werribee). This is to avoid cascading delays which are inevitable over such a long distance. Same goes for the 903 bus.
John.Z
I see @justarider Disagrees. There is a Large piece of evidence that pretty much confirms the SRL and MARL with be segregated, its been confirmed it will use AC power instead of the DC power system the rest of the Melbourne rail network.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
How much $$$ savings are we (potentially, theoretically) talking here?  If the SRL is (at this stage) supposed  to share tracks with the airport line, then trains will have to be compatible with the rest of the network (voltage, platform accessibility, etc).  Is that particularly feasible with smaller trains?
That I'm not sure.

The SRL won't share tracks with the MARL. I am convinced that the section west of the Airport is at present just a line on a map to satisfy the electorate that the west hasn't been ignored even though that section is 30 years away from being built.

Given time, the SRL will continue more as a loop, going via watergardens, caroline springs and tarneit before terminating at werribee.

My other assumption is that each stage will be it's own individual line (Southland to Box Hill, Box Hill to Airport, Airport to Werribee). This is to avoid cascading delays which are inevitable over such a long distance. Same goes for the 903 bus.
I see @justarider Disagrees. There is a Large piece of evidence that pretty much confirms the SRL and MARL with be segregated, its been confirmed it will use AC power instead of the DC power system the rest of the Melbourne rail network.
Dangersdan707
Put it this way Dan.
If SRL(west) and MARL do not share track then its not a 30 year wait for the SRL last piece, its never.
A 16km track , mostly tunnel, from Airport to  Ravenhall, just to avoid the Sunshine detour (approx extra 6km). That is double MM1.

Couple of sure things. Using HCMT.
The MARL tunnel to Airport (about 1 km) will be the same size as Metro1 ( so yes , re-use the TBM)
It will be 1500v DC.

I disagree with John.Z that it would be 3 independant lines. Madness. Deliberate delays !!! to kill off any customer attraction.

Finally, 2 different spark systems does not preclude sharing. There are any number of dual voltage trains.

cheers
John
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
How much $$$ savings are we (potentially, theoretically) talking here?  If the SRL is (at this stage) supposed  to share tracks with the airport line, then trains will have to be compatible with the rest of the network (voltage, platform accessibility, etc).  Is that particularly feasible with smaller trains?
That I'm not sure.

The SRL won't share tracks with the MARL. I am convinced that the section west of the Airport is at present just a line on a map to satisfy the electorate that the west hasn't been ignored even though that section is 30 years away from being built.

Given time, the SRL will continue more as a loop, going via watergardens, caroline springs and tarneit before terminating at werribee.

My other assumption is that each stage will be it's own individual line (Southland to Box Hill, Box Hill to Airport, Airport to Werribee). This is to avoid cascading delays which are inevitable over such a long distance. Same goes for the 903 bus.
I see @justarider Disagrees. There is a Large piece of evidence that pretty much confirms the SRL and MARL with be segregated, its been confirmed it will use AC power instead of the DC power system the rest of the Melbourne rail network.
Put it this way Dan.
If SRL(west) and MARL do not share track then its not a 30 year wait for the SRL last piece, its never.
A 16km track , mostly tunnel, from Airport to  Ravenhall, just to avoid the Sunshine detour (approx extra 6km). That is double MM1.

Couple of sure things. Using HCMT.
The MARL tunnel to Airport (about 1 km) will be the same size as Metro1 ( so yes , re-use the TBM)
It will be 1500v DC.

I disagree with John.Z that it would be 3 independant lines. Madness. Deliberate delays !!! to kill off any customer attraction.

Finally, 2 different spark systems does not preclude sharing. There are any number of dual voltage trains.

cheers
John
justarider
Bit late with the reply sorry.

I entirely agree that the SRL will not be 3 seperate lines or systems, doing so would be incredibly stupid for costs logistics and passenger convenience.

However, I doubt that the SRL will share any tracks with the exisiting BG network based on whats been announced. Share the Same corridor for a section of it? Most probably. Do I think they will let trains intermingle? no, and I cannot see them ordering dual voltage stock in the short, or long term with SRL. My guess is that some sort of provision will be left in place on part of the airport rail link for the SRL's alinement and Future station. If intermingling with the exisiting network was planned, we would have heard already.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Put it this way @dan. If SRL(west) and MARL do not share track then its not a 30 year wait for the SRL last piece, its never.
Bit late with the reply sorry.

I entirely agree that the SRL will not be 3 seperate lines or systems, doing so would be incredibly stupid for costs logistics and passenger convenience.

However, I doubt that the SRL will share any tracks with the exisiting BG network based on whats been announced. Share the Same corridor for a section of it? Most probably. Do I think they will let trains intermingle? no, and I cannot see them ordering dual voltage stock in the short, or long term with SRL. My guess is that some sort of provision will be left in place on part of the airport rail link for the SRL's alinement and Future station. If intermingling with the exisiting network was planned, we would have heard already.
Dangersdan707
Firstly @dan, a bit of reality check.
Melbourne Metro trains are served by 3 companies - Alstrom, Downer, Bombardier. All of which have build/repair facilities on the BG network.

Iintroducing a 4th player, on the SG network is fanciful.

At some point SRL trains will have to get to/from the factory, so why make life difficult with SG.

Sharing corridor only sounds easy, until you consider that mean SIX tracks on the Albion detour, including 55m above the Maribyrnong.
And FOUR tunnels under the Airport.
A very expensive excercise for max 6 tpa.

cheers
John
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Put it this way @dan. If SRL(west) and MARL do not share track then its not a 30 year wait for the SRL last piece, its never.
Bit late with the reply sorry.

I entirely agree that the SRL will not be 3 seperate lines or systems, doing so would be incredibly stupid for costs logistics and passenger convenience.

However, I doubt that the SRL will share any tracks with the exisiting BG network based on whats been announced. Share the Same corridor for a section of it? Most probably. Do I think they will let trains intermingle? no, and I cannot see them ordering dual voltage stock in the short, or long term with SRL. My guess is that some sort of provision will be left in place on part of the airport rail link for the SRL's alinement and Future station. If intermingling with the exisiting network was planned, we would have heard already.
Firstly @dan, a bit of reality check.
Melbourne Metro trains are served by 3 companies - Alstrom, Downer, Bombardier. All of which have build/repair facilities on the BG network.

Iintroducing a 4th player, on the SG network is fanciful.

At some point SRL trains will have to get to/from the factory, so why make life difficult with SG.

Sharing corridor only sounds easy, until you consider that mean SIX tracks on the Albion detour, including 55m above the Maribyrnong.
And FOUR tunnels under the Airport.
A very expensive excercise for max 6 tpa.

cheers
John
justarider
I got to agree with Dan on this occasion about how probable it is for the SG and BG separation will be. Dual gauge trains/tracks do exist but the SRL project from the information so far is telling us it is a segregated line separate from the legacy network. Although it doesn't mean, it won't run on existing corridors it absolutely will do that, but its line is not connected at all with the legacy network.

The most probable outcome will be an SG network for the SRL line and BG as part of the Airport railway link. It's likely that the section btw Sunshine and when the Airport line comes off the Albion corridor will be a six-track corridor. But I believe the SRL would likely avoid the tunnels of the Airport line by continuing via the Alignment via Jacana and Broadmeadows instead of doing a major deviation to the Airport.

You'll be asking then how would SRL get to the Airport, well simply having a useful interchange stop at Keilor west. And Airport west station will be only served by SRL trains (since the Airport line diverts by that point).

Essentially you'd have a spur off the Airport and then you'd have the SRL route going via Broadmeadows to Sunshine using the full Albion corridor, with interchange to Airport via Keilor west. This is the most economically viable option I see them doing since it avoids tunnelling through most of Broadmeadows. I can see the Airport corridor increasing the 6 tph whenever they decide to build the SRL to the west which won't be for a very long time or at all. By increasing the Airport line frequency when SRL opens will mean interchanging will be quick and the loss of time bypassing it won't be as substantial as the cost-saving that result from it. Plus with the SRL going direct to the Airport it completely will skip any proper integration with the Airport west tram terminus and the shopping area, which would be essential for better connectivity in the area.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Really @True Believers, you consider the Melbourne Metro 1000km (and expanding) to be a "legacy network" ? Only in your own delusion will it ever change guage.

SRL at only 90km is the minnow, so why this crazy obsession with the unecessary SG.

And SRL not paying a visit to the Airport. Crazy!  
Expecting OS visitor to interchange 5km from the Airport - you really do want to kill off the project.

cheers
John

PS The Airport West tram and 903 bus should run thru to the Airport anyways. That is the easy bit long overdue.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Really @True Believers, you consider the Melbourne Metro 1000km (and expanding) to be a "legacy network" ? Only in your own delusion will it ever change guage.

SRL at only 90km is the minnow, so why this crazy obsession with the unecessary SG.

And SRL not paying a visit to the Airport. Crazy!  
Expecting OS visitor to interchange 5km from the Airport - you really do want to kill off the project.

cheers
John

PS The Airport West tram and 903 bus should run thru to the Airport anyways. That is the easy bit long overdue.
justarider
Now you're taking words I didn't say @justarider. "Only in your own delusion will it ever change gauge." This is complete rubbish, I DIDN'T say the BG network will be converted to SG, I said the SRL line, a completely new segregated line will operate as SG, while the BG network remains the same.

When you have a completely brand new line, you have a free slate without the worry about segregating with the existing one. It could be BG, SG or whatever, it doesn't matter since it's a separate mode of transit (it's going to be a metro). You can also upgrade the Melbourne Metro network to modern standards such as high capacity signalling (modern signalling) and eventually introducing consistency on the fleet on each corridor.

The Airport line will remain BG and the SRL line is SG. I didn't say to convert the Airport line to SG, you're talking about something I clearly didn't say.

And SRL not paying a visit to the Airport is to save on unnecessary tunnelling that would make the western section on the never to-do list. Plus it makes the Airport line more useful, what's the point of duplicating the roles of the Airport line and the SRL between Sunshine and the Airport using the same corridor, that's a complete waste, instead of extending the coverage to Airport west which has potential to be a vital interchange.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with extending the trams and buses out to the Airport.

But duplicating the roles like this part of the west makes entirely no sense from an economical standpoint, interchanging isn't a death sentence if both lines operate frequently. The Airport line will make any SRL going towards the Airport redundant if it's using the same corridor. Either it shares part of the corridor or it duplicates the whole corridor, which is more useful?

Even in the maps, the inclusion of the Airport makes the SRL route look indirect and stupid on paper. Why do you think it's better to skip suburbs in the north-west to quality transport when the Airport line already does its job serving the airport, it makes no sense at all.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

It’s quite illogical for SRL to skip the airport to interchange with MM1 Airport Link at Keilor East, more hassle for a lot more people.

The airport will be much more accessible and easy to reach with SRL, for example someone at Ringwood can easily ride to Box Hill and interchange to SRL.

This means when the SRL is connected to the Airport, MM1 Airport Link may get a bit less use case, but still worth it.

SRL sounds like it’s going to be independent system, while MM1 and Airport Link are joint system.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

It’s quite illogical for SRL to skip the airport to interchange with MM1 Airport Link at Keilor East, more hassle for a lot more people.

The airport will be much more accessible and easy to reach with SRL, for example someone at Ringwood can easily ride to Box Hill and interchange to SRL.

This means when the SRL is connected to the Airport, MM1 Airport Link may get a bit less use case, but still worth it.

SRL sounds like it’s going to be independent system, while MM1 and Airport Link are joint system.
Jordy33
If you were coming from Ringwood just interchange with MM1 to access the Airport, the SRL will be longer that way.

I think the Airport link needs to have the most usage otherwise it's kinda a waster of billions that we are spending on it. SRL will still link with the Airport via one change, but it's only real usage is to the North, anyone east or southeast would use MM1 and anyone west would use the Airport link at Sunshine.

By separating SRL from the Airport link, you'd have the train loads shared evenly which is a better outcome overall.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Now you're taking words I didn't say @justarider. "Only in your own delusion will it ever change gauge." This is complete rubbish, I DIDN'T say the BG network will be converted to SG, I said the SRL line, a completely new segregated line will operate as SG, while the BG network remains the same.
True Believers
I apologise for attributing words to you.
I mistakenly understood that your disparaging the "legacy network" to mean an inference of replacement with your favorite topic "SG". You mention it often enough.

When you have a completely brand new line, you have a free slate without the worry about segregating with the existing one. It could be BG, SG or whatever, it doesn't matter ....
True Believers

If it doesn't matter, then why are you so vocal in advocacy of SG ?
However keeping BG always keeps the option open to move rolling stock around to any/all of the maintenance depots.

But duplicating the roles like this part of the west makes entirely no sense from an economical standpoint,
True Believers
Perhaps not, yet duplicating only a short stretch. Not much different than the Alamein line, or Melton(sparks) and Ballarat.

If your so het up about it, try a real gunzel detour.
The SRL anti-clock goes Airport/Sunshine/MM1/Cranbourne. Duplicate eliminated, SRL becomes MARL.
More like a pretzel than a loop.

"interchanging isn't a death sentence if both lines operate frequently"... so youz in the west won't mind swapping at Sunshine.

If you were coming from Ringwood just interchange with MM1 to access the Airport, the SRL will be longer that way.
True Believers
is that "longer" a distance or time factor. Wrong on both counts.
Published MARL states best case Box Hill to Airport (express to Melb Central, 0 min interchange) is 46 minutes. About 45km.
SRL Box Hill/Airport 33km @ 100kph = 20 minutes.

I understand to you would dearly love a couple of stations out west. But your suggestions aren't going to get that.

cheers
John
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

If it doesn't matter, then why are you so vocal in advocacy of SG ?
However keeping BG always keeps the option open to move rolling stock around to any/all of the maintenance depots.
justarider
My advocacy has been misunderstood, it's advocating full separation of the suburban rail loop from the other projects, not mix-matching it with other projects. Whether it's gauge is used, doesn't matter since the SRL will not have any interaction with the existing network. It might be easier going with BG cause the existing infrastructure is BG, but it's probably cheaper long term going with SG. At the end of the day, the government has most likely chosen SG, which wasn't my decision. It really doesn't matter in the grand scheme since SRL will have little interaction with the existing network.

"interchanging isn't a death sentence if both lines operate frequently"... so youz in the west won't mind swapping at Sunshine.
Sunshine is intended to be a "super hub" for interchanging services, yeah I don't mind if they made the platforms easier to interchange with. There would obviously be multiple interchanges such as Keilor and Broadmeadows to make it easier to link to the Airport if the decision is made to use the full Albion corridor, which I suspect could happen.

Published MARL states best case Box Hill to Airport (express to Melb Central, 0 min interchange) is 46 minutes. About 45km.
SRL Box Hill/Airport 33km @ 100kph = 20 minutes.
Ok, I admit I didn't do my research there and did some guesswork. I'm wrong in this case, forgot that SRL has fewer stations and therefore incredibly faster. With bypassing the Airport it could increase to 30 minutes, which is still an improvement. But note bypassing the airport is just a concept, I'm just throwing ideas there.

I understand to you would dearly love a couple of stations out west. But your suggestions aren't going to get that.
Yeah, that suggestion would get a very limited amount of stations out west, but it does seriously need more considerations. The western section of SRL is a half baked solution, and only throwing out some ideas to keep the discussion going. I really hope they try to rework the western end of SRL to give better coverage to the western edge, cause it seems really just to cut off all the potential areas that it could serve on the western leg.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

………………………..

Published MARL states best case Box Hill to Airport (express to Melb Central, 0 min interchange) is 46 minutes. About 45km.
SRL Box Hill/Airport 33km @ 100kph = 20 minutes.


Horizontally, the centre of Melbourne Central’s platforms will be about 250 m from the centre of State Library’s platforms. State Library’s platforms will be about 40 m below the surface, to get under the City Loop (think Parliament). To interchange you’ll have to use escalators to get to the surface then get back down to the other platform level. An interchange of less than 5 mins will be good going.

SRL won't average 100 km/h.


This is the Metro Rail Tunnel - Building Thread thread.
  Upven Junior Train Controller

………………………..

Published MARL states best case Box Hill to Airport (express to Melb Central, 0 min interchange) is 46 minutes. About 45km.
SRL Box Hill/Airport 33km @ 100kph = 20 minutes.


Horizontally, the centre of Melbourne Central’s platforms will be about 250 m from the centre of State Library’s platforms. State Library’s platforms will be about 40 m below the surface, to get under the City Loop (think Parliament). To interchange you’ll have to use escalators to get to the surface then get back down to the other platform level. An interchange of less than 5 mins will be good going.

SRL won't average 100 km/h.


This is the Metro Rail Tunnel - Building Thread thread.
kitchgp
"The new State Library Station will be located under Swanston Street, between La Trobe Street and Franklin Street. It will include an underground passenger connection to Melbourne Central Station, allowing commuters to conveniently interchange between Metro Tunnel and City Loop train services."
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??


This is the Metro Rail Tunnel - Building Thread thread.
kitchgp
Yer, sorry about that. Foam is so hard to contain.

Shows how intertwined the projects MM1 MARL SRL HCMT really are.

cheers
John
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There is a live cross to the South Yarra site (i think it is) this afternoon.

SomebodyDon’t forget to tune into our special Facebook live this afternoon! Our Project team will be streaming to you live from the Metro Tunnel’s eastern entrance in South Yarra at 1pm.

Metro Tunnel expert Andrew Nelson will discuss the significance of the site, how the tunnel structure was built, the project’s next steps in the east and more.

An ideal watch for those intrigued by rail infrastructure and design!

The live session will be accessible via Facebook.







  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
We’ve got something special in store for you!

Experience an exclusive tour of the Metro Tunnel's eastern entrance this Tuesday 9 March at 1pm, live on Facebook. Accompanied by expert Andrew Nelson, come and find out all about the entrance works happening down in South Yarra.

Get a cheeky sneak peek at the twin tunnel entrance below.

Video of the current works
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
We’re now live at the Metro Tunnel’s eastern entrance in South Yarra where our crew have completed the tunnel entrance five months ahead of schedule.

Join our resident construction expert, Andrew Nelson, as he fills us in on the major works to date to construct the tunnel structure, the significance of the site, the project’s next steps in the east and more!

https://www.facebook.com/metrotunnel/videos/2796153740644820/
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The new State Library Station will be located under Swanston Street, between La Trobe Street and Franklin Street. It will include an underground passenger connection to Melbourne Central Station, allowing commuters to conveniently interchange between Metro Tunnel and City Loop train services."

You’ll still have to come from below the level of Melbourne Central’s Platforms 3 & 4 to above the level of Platforms 1 & 2, cross the City Loop’s northern tunnels and then descend between the City Loop’s northern and southern tunnels to Platforms 1 & 2, or further for Platforms 3 & 4. Or vice versa.

Currently an interchange between City Loop services at Melbourne Central (not that there is much demand for it) is only a matter of walking across the platform or using the escalator to the platform set above or below.

One thing’s for certain, the design won’t be the most efficient but will maximise the number of shops you need to pass. The redesign of Melbourne Central’s Swanston Street entrance added 2 mins to the time it takes to get from the street to Platforms 3 & 4.


PS: There might be a case for numbering State Library’s platforms as 5 & 6 and Town Hall’s as 15 & 16.

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