New intercity commuter trains

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
- Mt K station relocation, long-term I suspect the govt will need to "moderise"  all Sydney Suburban stations off tight curves due manage the gap issues and part of a long-term movement towards DOO.

- Cowan, it has a small customer base but worthy to retain its train service, issue is what is the best option.

- Merger of the three stations between Woy and Gosford, no, what advantage does it have apart from reducing the usefulness to only long distance commuting as less useful to local use.

- Reference to GC trains was south of Beenleigh, not north. The GC stations are spaced a fair way apart which limits the railway for local use. Its more a hub system for accessing Brisbane. There has been some discussion over the years of building additional infill stations and to enable more local use via use of a local service and then transfer to existing major station to continue to Brisbane.

Same applies for the Central Coast stations which has seen road congestion grow significantly over the last 20 years. I grew up there and my parents still live there, it is so slow getting around anymore.

The GC trains need to stop at some Beenleigh line stations to slow the trains down due to increased frequency of both services.

- CV-19 reduction in users will not last. Next year the jabs will start and life will start to return to normal although some people will use PT less due to change in way people work. This will eventually come back in a few years with population growth.

- I never said to run trains from Woy Woy to Newcastle, I said run two local shuttles on the line. Maybe they can be joined into one, I never looked at the timetable to see if this was practical.

- The key part of the suggestion going from what Sim's indicated was to move to an only express running through service from Sydney to Newcastle on a clock face time table. Between one end to the other there would be a around 4 or more locations were you get off to access a local station or local onto the express. This effectively happens in Sydney now. You get off at Bewora to access Mt K, Mt C and Asquith, you get off at Hornsby, Epping or Straithfield to access stations in between.

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  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

- Mt K station relocation, long-term I suspect the govt will need to "moderise"  all Sydney Suburban stations off tight curves due manage the gap issues and part of a long-term movement towards DOO.

- Cowan, it has a small customer base but worthy to retain its train service, issue is what is the best option.

- Merger of the three stations between Woy and Gosford, no, what advantage does it have apart from reducing the usefulness to only long distance commuting as less useful to local use.

- Reference to GC trains was south of Beenleigh, not north. The GC stations are spaced a fair way apart which limits the railway for local use. Its more a hub system for accessing Brisbane. There has been some discussion over the years of building additional infill stations and to enable more local use via use of a local service and then transfer to existing major station to continue to Brisbane.

Same applies for the Central Coast stations which has seen road congestion grow significantly over the last 20 years. I grew up there and my parents still live there, it is so slow getting around anymore.

The GC trains need to stop at some Beenleigh line stations to slow the trains down due to increased frequency of both services.

- CV-19 reduction in users will not last. Next year the jabs will start and life will start to return to normal although some people will use PT less due to change in way people work. This will eventually come back in a few years with population growth.

- I never said to run trains from Woy Woy to Newcastle, I said run two local shuttles on the line. Maybe they can be joined into one, I never looked at the timetable to see if this was practical.

- The key part of the suggestion going from what Sim's indicated was to move to an only express running through service from Sydney to Newcastle on a clock face time table. Between one end to the other there would be a around 4 or more locations were you get off to access a local station or local onto the express. This effectively happens in Sydney now. You get off at Bewora to access Mt K, Mt C and Asquith, you get off at Hornsby, Epping or Straithfield to access stations in between.
RTT_Rules
What you are saying may have some merit in respect to the Newcastle line and Illawarra line. However, the Blue Mountains line is a different kettle of fish and unless you have had direct experience with being an onboard staff member then you really have no basis on which to comment on the safety of NIF sets. They are just not safe on this line.

It looks like the whole NIF program has been pushed back with the trains being introduced in June 2021 on the Northern Line and the Illawarra line some time afterwards. The Blue Mountains Line is at least 2 years away.
  Ethan1395 Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
The passenger numbers at Koolewong, Tascot & Point Clare could be better served by one new platform large enough for all train on platform, and only one station to maintain along with better parking, cost to move the station owing to the crossing North of it, may as well go that bit further and have the one station.
a6et
You do advocate for closing local stations in favour of park & ride a lot, but I thought we were trying to encourage people to use cars less?
Ignoring the fact that park & ride often does not work due to the impossibility of providing enough parking for commuters, closing local stations in favour of park & ride also increases the cost of living for those on the rail corridor.

When a station is in walking distance, a family can own one car and one family member can drive while another uses the train, should the other family member need to use the car, then the one who normally drives can use the train - obviously it is not always as simple as this but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Take away the local station and make car ownership a pre-requisite to using the train, then every family member in said household needs to own a car, increasing the cost of living significantly.

And then there is the fact that pre-Covid, park & ride simply never worked, the car parks always filled to capacity.


I still think that getting some single deckers to operate locally if done frequently could be useful especially if some quad sections at places like Awaba, wyee or warnervale where expresses could pass the all stopper local is installed. Straigtening the line between Awaba and Dora creek to reduce travel time would also help and maybe a bypass between Fassi and Teralba for expresses and freights and open up 4 tracks between Fassifern and the proposed Glendale interchange.
simstrain
Ah but common sense is not too common.
I've always been an advocate for proper local suburban rail in Newcastle with single-deck trains (basically electric hunter railcars), the benefit would be two-fold.

Firstly, increased liveability in Newcastle with some competent public transport with a local trains service between Fassifern and Newcastle Intg running every 15 minutes in peak (20/30 minutes off peak) with infill stations at local destinations and pedestrian accessibility existing underutilised station (there are literally housing developments going up right next to stations but pedestrian access is not installed).
Secondly, there would be no need to stop express services at all stops between Fassifern and Newcastle Intg to make up for the lack of local services - currently this happens in peak hour and on weekends, and it's frustrating.


How would this work for stopping patterns:
  • EXPRESS (10 Carriage): Central, Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Gosford, Wyong, Morisset, Fassifern, Charlestown Rd, Newcastle Intg
  • LIMITED (6 Carriage): Central, Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Berowra, Cowan, Hawksbury River, Woy Woy, Gosford, Ourimbah, Tuggerah, Wyong, Warnervale, Wyee, Morisset, Dora Ck, Awaba, Fassifern, Charelstown Rd, Newcastle Intg
  • CENTRAL COAST LOCAL (2 Carriage Single Deck): Berowra, Cowan, all to Woy Woy, all to Gosford, all to Wyong
  • NEWCASTLE LOCAL (2 Carriage Single Deck): Fassifern, Booragul, Teralba, Cockle Ck, Argenton, Glendale, Cardiff, Cardiff Hts, Charelstown Rd, Blackbutt, Kotara, Adamstown, Broadmeadow, Newcastle Intg
  a6et Minister for Railways

The passenger numbers at Koolewong, Tascot & Point Clare could be better served by one new platform large enough for all train on platform, and only one station to maintain along with better parking, cost to move the station owing to the crossing North of it, may as well go that bit further and have the one station.
You do advocate for closing local stations in favour of park & ride a lot, but I thought we were trying to encourage people to use cars less?
Ignoring the fact that park & ride often does not work due to the impossibility of providing enough parking for commuters, closing local stations in favour of park & ride also increases the cost of living for those on the rail corridor.

When a station is in walking distance, a family can own one car and one family member can drive while another uses the train, should the other family member need to use the car, then the one who normally drives can use the train - obviously it is not always as simple as this but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Take away the local station and make car ownership a pre-requisite to using the train, then every family member in said household needs to own a car, increasing the cost of living significantly.

And then there is the fact that pre-Covid, park & ride simply never worked, the car parks always filled to capacity.


I still think that getting some single deckers to operate locally if done frequently could be useful especially if some quad sections at places like Awaba, wyee or warnervale where expresses could pass the all stopper local is installed. Straigtening the line between Awaba and Dora creek to reduce travel time would also help and maybe a bypass between Fassi and Teralba for expresses and freights and open up 4 tracks between Fassifern and the proposed Glendale interchange.
Ah but common sense is not too common.
I've always been an advocate for proper local suburban rail in Newcastle with single-deck trains (basically electric hunter railcars), the benefit would be two-fold.

Firstly, increased liveability in Newcastle with some competent public transport with a local trains service between Fassifern and Newcastle Intg running every 15 minutes in peak (20/30 minutes off peak) with infill stations at local destinations and pedestrian accessibility existing underutilised station (there are literally housing developments going up right next to stations but pedestrian access is not installed).
Secondly, there would be no need to stop express services at all stops between Fassifern and Newcastle Intg to make up for the lack of local services - currently this happens in peak hour and on weekends, and it's frustrating.


How would this work for stopping patterns:
  • EXPRESS (10 Carriage): Central, Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Gosford, Wyong, Morisset, Fassifern, Charlestown Rd, Newcastle Intg
  • LIMITED (6 Carriage): Central, Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Berowra, Cowan, Hawksbury River, Woy Woy, Gosford, Ourimbah, Tuggerah, Wyong, Warnervale, Wyee, Morisset, Dora Ck, Awaba, Fassifern, Charelstown Rd, Newcastle Intg
  • CENTRAL COAST LOCAL (2 Carriage Single Deck): Berowra, Cowan, all to Woy Woy, all to Gosford, all to Wyong
  • NEWCASTLE LOCAL (2 Carriage Single Deck): Fassifern, Booragul, Teralba, Cockle Ck, Argenton, Glendale, Cardiff, Cardiff Hts, Charelstown Rd, Blackbutt, Kotara, Adamstown, Broadmeadow, Newcastle Intg
Ethan1395
There is enough space along the straight between Tascott & Koolewong to make provision for long platforms to suit 10 or more carriages, likewise on both sides of the line there is room for car parking, for those who are dropped off by family that is no great issue.

Koolewong & Point Clare do not have great car parking, and Tascott much less interestingly though with Tascott, how many car spaces are available there and how often is it full?  It has approx 30-35 spots and I have yet to see them full.  Realistically the Western side of the line will never be developed any further than it is now.  Having one station for the area may well provide better services for those who live in the area.

The way things go these days, if those 3 stations were not there, where would a business case go if there was a call for 1, let alone 3.  The way Brisbane Water Drive is these days, for commuters heading to Gosford to catch trains, most give it a miss owing to the congestion on it, but travelling to Woy Woy is a better option for them.  Thing is with the area growing on the basis of retirement units, and extension for the Point Clare station, if car parking was available in better numbers, more people would use it, and likely be seen as a crucial stop justifying a 10 car train.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There is enough space along the straight between Tascott & Koolewong to make provision for long platforms to suit 10 or more carriages, likewise on both sides of the line there is room for car parking, for those who are dropped off by family that is no great issue.

Koolewong & Point Clare do not have great car parking, and Tascott much less interestingly though with Tascott, how many car spaces are available there and how often is it full?  It has approx 30-35 spots and I have yet to see them full.  Realistically the Western side of the line will never be developed any further than it is now.  Having one station for the area may well provide better services for those who live in the area.

The way things go these days, if those 3 stations were not there, where would a business case go if there was a call for 1, let alone 3.  The way Brisbane Water Drive is these days, for commuters heading to Gosford to catch trains, most give it a miss owing to the congestion on it, but travelling to Woy Woy is a better option for them.  Thing is with the area growing on the basis of retirement units, and extension for the Point Clare station, if car parking was available in better numbers, more people would use it, and likely be seen as a crucial stop justifying a 10 car train.
a6et
Just because there is space doesn't make sense to build it there if it leads to a reduced level of service. You are stating to close three stations that have a high degree of walk up traffic (draw a line of at 500m around the stations) to a location of which there is almost no local housing and require almost every passenger to use a car to get to.

Looking at the Satellite photos of the three stations, almost every space is full at both Tascott (53 + 4 spaces) and Pt Claire. Koolewong you can see them parking on the street. Considering the degree of walk up, why would you expect the car parks to be larger and the fact that two are not overflowing indicates the parking size is appropriate.

Its a long slow drive from Pt Claire to Gosford to just catch a different train.

Woy Woy is more practical for Koolewong residents, but the car park is so long and narrow and unless you were early there would be a long walk (500m to station from the end of the carpark).

Yes if the line was built Greenfield it would look a alot different. Most of the existing stations would unlikely exist unless that could draw 5000 or so passengers a day. The stations would also be straight and we wouldn't be discussing the purpose of the guard as they simply wouldn't exist and the station staff would be CSO's, not flagging trains. If line wasn't shared with freight, the trains would unlikely even have a driver.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The passenger numbers at Koolewong, Tascot & Point Clare could be better served by one new platform large enough for all train on platform, and only one station to maintain along with better parking, cost to move the station owing to the crossing North of it, may as well go that bit further and have the one station.
You do advocate for closing local stations in favour of park & ride a lot, but I thought we were trying to encourage people to use cars less?
Ignoring the fact that park & ride often does not work due to the impossibility of providing enough parking for commuters, closing local stations in favour of park & ride also increases the cost of living for those on the rail corridor.

When a station is in walking distance, a family can own one car and one family member can drive while another uses the train, should the other family member need to use the car, then the one who normally drives can use the train - obviously it is not always as simple as this but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Take away the local station and make car ownership a pre-requisite to using the train, then every family member in said household needs to own a car, increasing the cost of living significantly.

And then there is the fact that pre-Covid, park & ride simply never worked, the car parks always filled to capacity.


I still think that getting some single deckers to operate locally if done frequently could be useful especially if some quad sections at places like Awaba, wyee or warnervale where expresses could pass the all stopper local is installed. Straigtening the line between Awaba and Dora creek to reduce travel time would also help and maybe a bypass between Fassi and Teralba for expresses and freights and open up 4 tracks between Fassifern and the proposed Glendale interchange.
Ah but common sense is not too common.
I've always been an advocate for proper local suburban rail in Newcastle with single-deck trains (basically electric hunter railcars), the benefit would be two-fold.

Firstly, increased liveability in Newcastle with some competent public transport with a local trains service between Fassifern and Newcastle Intg running every 15 minutes in peak (20/30 minutes off peak) with infill stations at local destinations and pedestrian accessibility existing underutilised station (there are literally housing developments going up right next to stations but pedestrian access is not installed).
Secondly, there would be no need to stop express services at all stops between Fassifern and Newcastle Intg to make up for the lack of local services - currently this happens in peak hour and on weekends, and it's frustrating.


How would this work for stopping patterns:
  • EXPRESS (10 Carriage): Central, Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Gosford, Wyong, Morisset, Fassifern, Charlestown Rd, Newcastle Intg
  • LIMITED (6 Carriage): Central, Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Berowra, Cowan, Hawksbury River, Woy Woy, Gosford, Ourimbah, Tuggerah, Wyong, Warnervale, Wyee, Morisset, Dora Ck, Awaba, Fassifern, Charelstown Rd, Newcastle Intg
  • CENTRAL COAST LOCAL (2 Carriage Single Deck): Berowra, Cowan, all to Woy Woy, all to Gosford, all to Wyong
  • NEWCASTLE LOCAL (2 Carriage Single Deck): Fassifern, Booragul, Teralba, Cockle Ck, Argenton, Glendale, Cardiff, Cardiff Hts, Charelstown Rd, Blackbutt, Kotara, Adamstown, Broadmeadow, Newcastle Intg
Ethan1395
- Park'n'ride is effective and works better in some areas than others. For this application what they have now works as station catchment is close and small.

- The two car family is fairly entrenched, I doubt having walk up option would make a huge difference, but its a valid point.

The current timetable is trying to do two things with the same train. 40 years ago the Central Coast was a small limited commuter base from Sydney with limited local traffic. The local bus network was limited and focused on mainly connecting with the stations in peak, roads were fairly clear and traffic moved much faster on poorer quality roads than today.

Today we have a much larger population, although note most of the growth has been away from the railway, but there is more local Nth - Sth traffic, especially Gosford to Wyong corridor. Likewise further north to Newcastle.

So time to change the railway operation
- Limited express clockface timetable
- Local services filling in and acting as feeders between major stations starting locally, not starting from Central.
- Increase in frequency to the local stations

Single carriage trains won't happen as these are another model train to bring in, there us plenty of available and suitable rolling stock such as the H-sets.
  Ethan1395 Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
There is enough space along the straight between Tascott & Koolewong to make provision for long platforms to suit 10 or more carriages, likewise on both sides of the line there is room for car parking, for those who are dropped off by family that is no great issue.

Koolewong & Point Clare do not have great car parking, and Tascott much less interestingly though with Tascott, how many car spaces are available there and how often is it full?  It has approx 30-35 spots and I have yet to see them full.  Realistically the Western side of the line will never be developed any further than it is now.  Having one station for the area may well provide better services for those who live in the area.

The way things go these days, if those 3 stations were not there, where would a business case go if there was a call for 1, let alone 3.  The way Brisbane Water Drive is these days, for commuters heading to Gosford to catch trains, most give it a miss owing to the congestion on it, but travelling to Woy Woy is a better option for them.  Thing is with the area growing on the basis of retirement units, and extension for the Point Clare station, if car parking was available in better numbers, more people would use it, and likely be seen as a crucial stop justifying a 10 car train.
a6et
Having one station will also significantly increase the cost of living for those living in the area, possibly leading to someone families who once owned 1-2 cars needing to own 4 cars. Household budgets in Australia are already stretched thin as it is.

No one is suggesting stopping a 10 carraige train at these stations, people want smaller local shuttles serving these stations which would both be for local trips and connecting with express services at larger stations.
I cringe every time I drive past the hideous 10 carriage platform extension at Adamstown, that stations has good walk-up catchment and should be served by frequent 2 carriage local trains and not hourly/2 hourly 8/10 carraige intericty trains.


The passenger numbers at Koolewong, Tascot & Point Clare could be better served by one new platform large enough for all train on platform, and only one station to maintain along with better parking, cost to move the station owing to the crossing North of it, may as well go that bit further and have the one station.
You do advocate for closing local stations in favour of park & ride a lot, but I thought we were trying to encourage people to use cars less?
Ignoring the fact that park & ride often does not work due to the impossibility of providing enough parking for commuters, closing local stations in favour of park & ride also increases the cost of living for those on the rail corridor.

When a station is in walking distance, a family can own one car and one family member can drive while another uses the train, should the other family member need to use the car, then the one who normally drives can use the train - obviously it is not always as simple as this but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Take away the local station and make car ownership a pre-requisite to using the train, then every family member in said household needs to own a car, increasing the cost of living significantly.

And then there is the fact that pre-Covid, park & ride simply never worked, the car parks always filled to capacity.


I still think that getting some single deckers to operate locally if done frequently could be useful especially if some quad sections at places like Awaba, wyee or warnervale where expresses could pass the all stopper local is installed. Straigtening the line between Awaba and Dora creek to reduce travel time would also help and maybe a bypass between Fassi and Teralba for expresses and freights and open up 4 tracks between Fassifern and the proposed Glendale interchange.
Ah but common sense is not too common.
I've always been an advocate for proper local suburban rail in Newcastle with single-deck trains (basically electric hunter railcars), the benefit would be two-fold.

Firstly, increased liveability in Newcastle with some competent public transport with a local trains service between Fassifern and Newcastle Intg running every 15 minutes in peak (20/30 minutes off peak) with infill stations at local destinations and pedestrian accessibility existing underutilised station (there are literally housing developments going up right next to stations but pedestrian access is not installed).
Secondly, there would be no need to stop express services at all stops between Fassifern and Newcastle Intg to make up for the lack of local services - currently this happens in peak hour and on weekends, and it's frustrating.


How would this work for stopping patterns:
  • EXPRESS (10 Carriage): Central, Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Gosford, Wyong, Morisset, Fassifern, Charlestown Rd, Newcastle Intg
  • LIMITED (6 Carriage): Central, Strathfield, Epping, Hornsby, Berowra, Cowan, Hawksbury River, Woy Woy, Gosford, Ourimbah, Tuggerah, Wyong, Warnervale, Wyee, Morisset, Dora Ck, Awaba, Fassifern, Charelstown Rd, Newcastle Intg
  • CENTRAL COAST LOCAL (2 Carriage Single Deck): Berowra, Cowan, all to Woy Woy, all to Gosford, all to Wyong
  • NEWCASTLE LOCAL (2 Carriage Single Deck): Fassifern, Booragul, Teralba, Cockle Ck, Argenton, Glendale, Cardiff, Cardiff Hts, Charelstown Rd, Blackbutt, Kotara, Adamstown, Broadmeadow, Newcastle Intg
- Park'n'ride is effective and works better in some areas than others. For this application what they have now works as station catchment is close and small.

- The two car family is fairly entrenched, I doubt having walk up option would make a huge difference, but its a valid point.

The current timetable is trying to do two things with the same train. 40 years ago the Central Coast was a small limited commuter base from Sydney with limited local traffic. The local bus network was limited and focused on mainly connecting with the stations in peak, roads were fairly clear and traffic moved much faster on poorer quality roads than today.

Today we have a much larger population, although note most of the growth has been away from the railway, but there is more local Nth - Sth traffic, especially Gosford to Wyong corridor. Likewise further north to Newcastle.

So time to change the railway operation
- Limited express clockface timetable
- Local services filling in and acting as feeders between major stations starting locally, not starting from Central.
- Increase in frequency to the local stations

Single carriage trains won't happen as these are another model train to bring in, there us plenty of available and suitable rolling stock such as the H-sets.
RTT_Rules
Park & Ride only works if the car park is not going to fill to capacity, it certainly does not work in the Sydney suburban network.

The 2 car family is fairly entrenched (but still would be helpful to reduce to 1 car) but I'm talking about trying to prevent the 4 car family that we see in the likes of Newcastle where local transport options are so bad that employers won't hire someone who uses them, essentially forcing children from poorer families (who can't afford to buy them a car) into welfare dependence.


Agreed with what your other points, there should be two express services an hour, one ultra-express and one limited (see my above post), as well as Berowra-Wyong local shuttles connecting with express services and Newcastle local shuttles which both connect with express services but operate more frequently to connect with the light rail.

Also worth mentioning that there is plenty of development in Newcastle occurring near the railway, no one has just bothered to connect it to said railway.


How hard would it be develop a new Hunter Railcar with an electric motor and pantograph? I imagine the biggest issue would be if the Hunter Railcars would be too narrow for current regulations. Wouldn't a 4-carriage H-Set be a little overkill for local shuttles?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
[quote="Ethan1395"][quote=a6et]There is enough space along the straight between Tascott & Koolewong to make provision for long platforms to suit 10 or more carriages, likewise on both sides of the line there is room for car parking, for those who are dropped off by family that is no great issue.

Koolewong & Point Clare do not have great car parking, and Tascott much less interestingly though with Tascott, how many car spaces are available there and how often is it full? It has approx 30-35 spots and I have yet to see them full. Realistically the Western side of the line will never be developed any further than it is now. Having one station for the area may well provide better services for those who live in the area.

The way things go these days, if those 3 stations were not there, where would a business case go if there was a call for 1, let alone 3. The way Brisbane Water Drive is these days, for commuters heading to Gosford to catch trains, most give it a miss owing to the congestion on it, but travelling to Woy Woy is a better option for them. Thing is with the area growing on the basis of retirement units, and extension for the Point Clare station, if car parking was available in better numbers, more people would use it, and likely be seen as a crucial stop justifying a 10 car train.[/quote]Having one station will also significantly increase the cost of living for those living in the area, possibly leading to someone families who once owned 1-2 cars needing to own 4 cars. Household budgets in Australia are already stretched thin as it is.

No one is suggesting stopping a 10 carraige train at these stations, people want smaller local shuttles serving these stations which would both be for local trips and connecting with express services at larger stations.
I cringe every time I drive past the hideous 10 carriage platform extension at Adamstown, that stations has good walk-up catchment and should be served by frequent 2 carriage local trains and not hourly/2 hourly 8/10 carraige intericty trains.


[quote=RTT_Rules][quote][quote]The passenger numbers at Koolewong, Tascot & Point Clare could be better served by one new platform large enough for all train on platform, and only one station to maintain along with better parking, cost to move the station owing to the crossing North of it, may as well go that bit further and have the one station.[/quote]You do advocate for closing local stations in favour of park & ride a lot, but I thought we were trying to encourage people to use cars less?
Ignoring the fact that park & ride often does not work due to the impossibility of providing enough parking for commuters, closing local stations in favour of park & ride also increases the cost of living for those on the rail corridor.

When a station is in walking distance, a family can own one car and one family member can drive while another uses the train, should the other family member need to use the car, then the one who normally drives can use the train - obviously it is not always as simple as this but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Take away the local station and make car ownership a pre-requisite to using the train, then every family member in said household needs to own a car, increasing the cost of living significantly.

And then there is the fact that pre-Covid, park & ride simply never worked, the car parks always filled to capacity.


[quote]Park & Ride only works if the car park is not going to fill to capacity, it certainly does not work in the Sydney suburban network.

The 2 car family is fairly entrenched (but still would be helpful to reduce to 1 car) but I'm talking about trying to prevent the 4 car family that we see in the likes of Newcastle where local transport options are so bad that employers won't hire someone who uses them, essentially forcing children from poorer families (who can't afford to buy them a car) into welfare dependence.


Agreed with what your other points, there should be two express services an hour, one ultra-express and one limited (see my above post), as well as Berowra-Wyong local shuttles connecting with express services and Newcastle local shuttles which both connect with express services but operate more frequently to connect with the light rail.

Also worth mentioning that there is plenty of development in Newcastle occurring near the railway, no one has just bothered to connect it to said railway.


How hard would it be develop a new Hunter Railcar with an electric motor and pantograph? I imagine the biggest issue would be if the Hunter Railcars would be too narrow for current regulations. Wouldn't a 4-carriage H-Set be a little overkill for local shuttles?[/quote]

Park'n'ride is very effective and sucessful in Sydney. Buses, bikes and walking would be nice 100% alternative, but in reality it's not a solution for everyone. In Sydney most of the car trips would be assumed to travel from perpendicular to the station as stations are generally close together.

People don't just want cars for commuting, there is also a thing call the "weekend". I'm fairly certain even if we both used PT to go to work we would still have a car each.

Berowa is too far south and unnecessary as there are only two other stations in between Berowa and Woy Woy and its not worth jamming up 20 odd km of track capacity for just these two stations.

4 car sets are used for similar or worse in Sydney, but if you really want to use a smaller train, just buy another few 3 car CAF's.
  a6et Minister for Railways

[quote="RTT_Rules"]
[quote=Ethan1395][quote=a6et]There is enough space along the straight between Tascott & Koolewong to make provision for long platforms to suit 10 or more carriages, likewise on both sides of the line there is room for car parking, for those who are dropped off by family that is no great issue.

Koolewong & Point Clare do not have great car parking, and Tascott much less interestingly though with Tascott, how many car spaces are available there and how often is it full? It has approx 30-35 spots and I have yet to see them full. Realistically the Western side of the line will never be developed any further than it is now. Having one station for the area may well provide better services for those who live in the area.

The way things go these days, if those 3 stations were not there, where would a business case go if there was a call for 1, let alone 3. The way Brisbane Water Drive is these days, for commuters heading to Gosford to catch trains, most give it a miss owing to the congestion on it, but travelling to Woy Woy is a better option for them. Thing is with the area growing on the basis of retirement units, and extension for the Point Clare station, if car parking was available in better numbers, more people would use it, and likely be seen as a crucial stop justifying a 10 car train.[/quote]Having one station will also significantly increase the cost of living for those living in the area, possibly leading to someone families who once owned 1-2 cars needing to own 4 cars. Household budgets in Australia are already stretched thin as it is.

No one is suggesting stopping a 10 carraige train at these stations, people want smaller local shuttles serving these stations which would both be for local trips and connecting with express services at larger stations.
I cringe every time I drive past the hideous 10 carriage platform extension at Adamstown, that stations has good walk-up catchment and should be served by frequent 2 carriage local trains and not hourly/2 hourly 8/10 carraige intericty trains.


[quote=RTT_Rules]
[quote][quote]The passenger numbers at Koolewong, Tascot & Point Clare could be better served by one new platform large enough for all train on platform, and only one station to maintain along with better parking, cost to move the station owing to the crossing North of it, may as well go that bit further and have the one station.[/quote]You do advocate for closing local stations in favour of park & ride a lot, but I thought we were trying to encourage people to use cars less?
Ignoring the fact that park & ride often does not work due to the impossibility of providing enough parking for commuters, closing local stations in favour of park & ride also increases the cost of living for those on the rail corridor.

When a station is in walking distance, a family can own one car and one family member can drive while another uses the train, should the other family member need to use the car, then the one who normally drives can use the train - obviously it is not always as simple as this but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Take away the local station and make car ownership a pre-requisite to using the train, then every family member in said household needs to own a car, increasing the cost of living significantly.

And then there is the fact that pre-Covid, park & ride simply never worked, the car parks always filled to capacity.


[quote]Park & Ride only works if the car park is not going to fill to capacity, it certainly does not work in the Sydney suburban network.

The 2 car family is fairly entrenched (but still would be helpful to reduce to 1 car) but I'm talking about trying to prevent the 4 car family that we see in the likes of Newcastle where local transport options are so bad that employers won't hire someone who uses them, essentially forcing children from poorer families (who can't afford to buy them a car) into welfare dependence.


Agreed with what your other points, there should be two express services an hour, one ultra-express and one limited (see my above post), as well as Berowra-Wyong local shuttles connecting with express services and Newcastle local shuttles which both connect with express services but operate more frequently to connect with the light rail.

Also worth mentioning that there is plenty of development in Newcastle occurring near the railway, no one has just bothered to connect it to said railway.


How hard would it be develop a new Hunter Railcar with an electric motor and pantograph? I imagine the biggest issue would be if the Hunter Railcars would be too narrow for current regulations. Wouldn't a 4-carriage H-Set be a little overkill for local shuttles?[/quote]

Park'n'ride is very effective and sucessful in Sydney. Buses, bikes and walking would be nice 100% alternative, but in reality it's not a solution for everyone. In Sydney most of the car trips would be assumed to travel from perpendicular to the station as stations are generally close together.

People don't just want cars for commuting, there is also a thing call the "weekend". I'm fairly certain even if we both used PT to go to work we would still have a car each.

Berowa is too far south and unnecessary as there are only two other stations in between Berowa and Woy Woy and its not worth jamming up 20 odd km of track capacity for just these two stations.

4 car sets are used for similar or worse in Sydney, but if you really want to use a smaller train, just buy another few 3 car CAF's.[/quote]Park & Ride, I would suggest along that section with the 3 stations currently there is not that great, in fact its probably more Kiss and ride services from them, as I mentioned there will not be any new housing development on the western side of the line, so little future expansion of commuters is likely to happen. Koolewong has the level crossing on the Northern end, and with Exp services from Woy Woy, many commuters would go there from not just the Woy Woy area but also from the afore mentioned 3 stations. We travel down to Sydney and to Woy Woy, usually just outside of the Morning/evening commute and we do not see a great number of passengers get on or off at these stations.

Seriously speaking Point Clare & Tascot really are the weak links in this arena, owing to how close they are to each other. Point Clare as I said could be an ideal commuter station to take passengers to Gosford where it would amalgamate with a Sydney bound train or be there in time for passengers to change to a fast service to Sydney a win win for them. A look at the Demographics around the 3 stations shows a single 6-10 car set could serve the area better than it gets now.

Our problem of course is that we are in Covid times meaning the number of commuters are more than 75% down along the CC line as well as to the North to Wickham. Our nearest station is Victoria st and ATM the car park is only ever around half full on average for the morning and afternoon peaks, the pax numbers have dropped remarkably. Once something close to normality returns then we may get a better idea of how things will go.

Looking at the lines to NCL, realistically the growth areas are still around Wyong/Warnervale, then there may be a fair increase with the developments around Wyee and in the Morriset areas, that include Cooranbong. Most with the exception of Wyong and Warnervale will take time, to provide for extra train services, I would actually think there could be extensions at Morriset for Terminating trains there to run back and stop at Wyee - Warnervale in time when these housing developments are more advanced. There is a fair degree of road works around the Wyee station area ATM also to provide easy vehicle access to the station on the Western side also the station now has upgrades with lifts in operation.
  303gunner Station Master

The Berejiklian Government has announced that the New Intercity Fleet (previously known as "NIF"), will now be named the "Mariyung".

This an Aboriginal name for "Emu". I thought it odd that pre-European nations would have needed a word for an Electrical Multiple Unit train, but then I realised that it is the Ostrich-like native bird. The Sydney suburb of Marayong is also named after the Aboriginal word for Emu, but that name was applied when the Gadigal tribe was known as Cadigal.

Likewise, the Darug tribe have given their name to the Sydney suburb of Dharruk, as that was how they were once known.

But if Mariyung/Marayong is the Cadigal or Eora name for Emu, where did the name "Emu" originate? I think Mariyung is good, as most foreigners can't pronounce Emu! The Poms say "Em-You", the Yanks say "Ee-Moo".

I'll stick with D Set.
  M636C Minister for Railways

How hard would it be develop a new Hunter Railcar with an electric motor and pantograph? I imagine the biggest issue would be if the Hunter Railcars would be too narrow for current regulations. Wouldn't a 4-carriage H-Set be a little overkill for local shuttles?
In case you hadn't noticed, they are already under construction....

The CAF railcars to replace the Endeavours will have a pantograph and electric motors as well as a diesel engine....

They could run through from Sydney to Bathurst, Nowra or Moss Vale.....

Peter
  georges Chief Train Controller

The Berejiklian Government has announced that the New Intercity Fleet (previously known as "NIF"), will now be named the "Mariyung".

This an Aboriginal name for "Emu". I thought it odd that pre-European nations would have needed a word for an Electrical Multiple Unit train, but then I realised that it is the Ostrich-like native bird. The Sydney suburb of Marayong is also named after the Aboriginal word for Emu, but that name was applied when the Gadigal tribe was known as Cadigal.

Likewise, the Darug tribe have given their name to the Sydney suburb of Dharruk, as that was how they were once known.

But if Mariyung/Marayong is the Cadigal or Eora name for Emu, where did the name "Emu" originate? I think Mariyung is good, as most foreigners can't pronounce Emu! The Poms say "Em-You", the Yanks say "Ee-Moo".

I'll stick with D Set.
303gunner
Of course, the NIF/Mariyungs are EMUs.

The final nail for the Newcastle Flyer? Emus may be quick runners but they can never fly.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
The Berejiklian Government has announced that the New Intercity Fleet (previously known as "NIF"), will now be named the "Mariyung"
303gunner


Missed a chance there. Could have had them all named after different animals that are Australian, using their aboriginal words. Alas, no.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The Berejiklian Government has announced that the New Intercity Fleet (previously known as "NIF"), will now be named the "Mariyung"


Missed a chance there. Could have had them all named after different animals that are Australian, using their aboriginal words. Alas, no.
s3_gunzel
There are something like 120 Aboriginal languages, none are written languages, so what would you choose ?
  Brianr Assistant Commissioner

Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
But if Mariyung/Marayong is the Cadigal or Eora name for Emu, where did the name "Emu" originate? I think Mariyung is good, as most foreigners can't pronounce Emu! The Poms say "Em-You", the Yanks say "Ee-Moo".

I'll stick with D Set.
303gunner
It is not clear but apparently 'emu' has Arabic origins and was first used by Portuguese explorers.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

The Berejiklian Government has announced that the New Intercity Fleet (previously known as "NIF"), will now be named the "Mariyung"


Missed a chance there. Could have had them all named after different animals that are Australian, using their aboriginal words. Alas, no.
There are something like 120 Aboriginal languages, none are written languages, so what would you choose ?
Nightfire
none  - considering the joke of overseas product .. even the locals have problems with the new old words ..
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
There are something like 120 Aboriginal languages, none are written languages, so what would you choose ?
Nightfire


Dialects from the areas that the train would serve. There's only so many animals.
  ANR Chief Commissioner

I would name this train NFI.

Hope the seats get torn out and they become suburban sets.

The Stadler rail KISS or KISS200 should have been considered.

At worst, the CAF would have been a much better fit.

Long live the V sets. Plush and comfortable.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I would name this train NFI.

Hope the seats get torn out and they become suburban sets.

The Stadler rail KISS or KISS200 should have been considered.

At worst, the CAF would have been a much better fit.

Long live the V sets. Plush and comfortable.
ANR
Agree totally with the old V set seats.  With the new sets probably having the same rigid seats as found in the other things, I will not be looking forward to travel in the new ones to Sydney.  

Then again what would a commuter know when the polititions always play their game of knowing whats best, how often do they travel by rail except on publicity runs?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I would name this train NFI.

Hope the seats get torn out and they become suburban sets.

The Stadler rail KISS or KISS200 should have been considered.

At worst, the CAF would have been a much better fit.

Long live the V sets. Plush and comfortable.
ANR

V set seats get torn out all the time and they haven't become suburban trains. The seats on these new trains actually look quite comfortable from what I could see. I have never enjoyed the V set seat as so many on here seem to have. To me the back isn't tall enough and the arm rests are horrible. If I take a cushion with me I can actually handle the Oscar seat because of the back seat height. Certainly the Oscar seat is an abomination of and by itself for anything other then suburban services. The T100+ set tangara's have the best seat in the fleet as far as I am concerned.

The Stadler train was considered but they pulled out of the tender from my understanding. The CAF is a single deck regional train and it is nowhere near being fit for purpose for these intercity routes in 2021.
  icdog Train Controller

Location: Smegville
Wow,
Such ignorant comments.
A lot of "sucking on union kool aid narrative".
The NIF seats are comfortable, but what would you know?
It is manufactured by Hyundai Rotem, an excellent Train manufacturer. It is an OSCar with 90% changes by Hyundai, for the better.
It rides well, it is very well built, but what would you armchair critics know?
It is not a true Intercity Train, but a hybrid, which is what we need.
I could go on about the Mountains, but the daily vandalism stops me from that, you know, windows kicked out and then seats thrown out of the window openings.
V sets were a great Train, but don't get caught in an accident.
No one here talks about DSAPT compliance, Why?, cause you don't care.
I could go on and on but the world is moving ahead, maybe you would prefer a 48 class with 3 wooden carriages and gas heaters???
Give me a break.
Wait till you find out about the regional fleet!!!, you will be crying into your Gladstone bags!

I agree, Stadler make a lovely Intercity Train, just not for us, can you imagine offering up a lovely piece of equipment to the low life's we carry around?


Hate comments, here we come!
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Wow,
Such ignorant comments.
A lot of "sucking on union kool aid narrative".
The NIF seats are comfortable, but what would you know?
It is manufactured by Hyundai Rotem, an excellent Train manufacturer. It is an OSCar with 90% changes by Hyundai, for the better.
It rides well, it is very well built, but what would you armchair critics know?
It is not a true Intercity Train, but a hybrid, which is what we need.
I could go on about the Mountains, but the daily vandalism stops me from that, you know, windows kicked out and then seats thrown out of the window openings.
V sets were a great Train, but don't get caught in an accident.
No one here talks about DSAPT compliance, Why?, cause you don't care.
I could go on and on but the world is moving ahead, maybe you would prefer a 48 class with 3 wooden carriages and gas heaters???
Give me a break.
Wait till you find out about the regional fleet!!!, you will be crying into your Gladstone bags!

I agree, Stadler make a lovely Intercity Train, just not for us, can you imagine offering up a lovely piece of equipment to the low life's we carry around?


Hate comments, here we come!
icdog
Thank you.  Nice to get an inside appraisal for once.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
A full video run-through of the train:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC7c0tBINF0

The arrangements in the end compartments for people who can't, or don't want to, climb stairs are abysmal. The Oscars, for all their faults, at least had a decent amount of longitudinal seating on the platform level, while the V sets (although not accessible in the current sense) had substantial platform-level seating, with luggage racks too. This comes from the mentality that people in wheelchairs are the only people with mobility issues that have to be considered when in fact the figure is more like about 20% of the population, including customers like parents with prams. And who is seriously going to carry a suitcase up and down stairs to get to a luggage rack? The fixed saloon seating has already been well-aired in feedback. Watch the rush for forward-facing seating at stations. For a train serving long journey times, this design rates a C. If the seats turn out to be less comfortable than a V set's, that will become a C minus. It has almost nothing going for it other than USB ports and maybe the seat-back tables and better toilets.
  georges Chief Train Controller

The arrangements in the end compartments for people who can't, or don't want to, climb stairs are abysmal. The Oscars, for all their faults, at least had a decent amount of longitudinal seating on the platform level, while the V sets (although not accessible in the current sense) had substantial platform-level seating, with luggage racks too. This comes from the mentality that people in wheelchairs are the only people with mobility issues that have to be considered when in fact the figure is more like about 20% of the population, including customers like parents with prams. And who is seriously going to carry a suitcase up and down stairs to get to a luggage rack? The fixed saloon seating has already been well-aired in feedback. Watch the rush for forward-facing seating at stations. For a train serving long journey times, this design rates a C. If the seats turn out to be less comfortable than a V set's, that will become a C minus. It has almost nothing going for it other than USB ports and maybe the seat-back tables and better toilets.
tonyp
A problem with wheelchairs on existing A and B sets and Oscars is that the dedicated spaces, accessed by folding up the seat bottoms in certain cars, are hardly used at all except by seated passengers. Wheelchair passengers are usually assisted on to whatever carriage they indicate to the Sydney Trains staff who help them board, whether or not there is wheelchair provision in that car. The result is that wheelchair passengers travel in the entrance foyers adjacent to the vertical poles intended for standing passengers to hold on to. Wheelchairs passengers in foyers impede access to the end compartments and pose a danger to themselves and others in the event of a sudden stop or accident.
  icdog Train Controller

Location: Smegville
The disabled community was extensively consulted in the design stage of this Train and, by the way,love it.
This Train is the most DSAPT compliant of any Train in Australia.
Thank goodness it was the said community that was consulted on this and not this website!!

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