Upgrades to deliver more train services for Gippsland

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 18 Mar 2021 07:35
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Cross fingers, that when Dandy trains go into the tunnel, the pathway from Sth Yarra UP, is available for the Gippy pretty much exclusive.

Could even have the platform and terminate at FSS.
Why bother going to SXS and getting stuck on the viaduct, let Metro keep their own tangles.
yep I know there aren't any water or fuel services.

cheers
John
How often do these trains need fuel & water?  If crossing the viaduct for servicing could be timed to avoid peak periods....
The trains from Traralgon form other services out West, from platform 15&16 at Southern Cross
Nightfire
Ah.  I assumed each of the 4 country lines was its own "group", without rolling stock being swapped between them during each day.

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Yesterday I caught the UP 12:54 from Bairnsdale after riding 60km from Nowa Nowa but I digress. As it was black Thursday, there were at lest 60 on at Bairnsdale and similar at Sale. By the time we departed Traralgon there was a good crowd on the 6 car V'Locity.

However apart from the N sets which give the illusion of being faster due to running semi-express, the V'Locity stopped all stations, which however if it were semi-express might only save about 20 mins because of the power to weight ratio of a V'Locity compared to an N set. I was happy with the speed of the train which from Bairnsdale to Sale was 100km/h and the track a lot smoother than I thought it could be.

Speed restrictions... Four completely idiotic speed restrictions between farmers private paddocks which sees any traffic across the line about fortnightly, judging by the wear and tear on the weeds. Simply nanny state gone mad, or some idiot in head office who hasn't bothered to look at the real world.

Mike.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Since the TT for that stretch is 26 minutes for the 20km, precisely how much is the "large amount" to be saved by some exclusive tracks??? Lets be generous and say 10 minutes. Really !!!  
Time through the section extends out to 32+ minutes during peak which equates to an average speed of 36.39km/h to travel the 19.408 kilometers. That speed is more what you'd find on a tourist railway than a modern mainline. Even out of peak at 26 minutes the average speed is just 44.78km/h. No matter which way you spin it its appallingly slow and its beyond me how anyone can find that acceptable.
Is not CBTC being installed to sort out the unacceptable variations to TT?

The question remains. How much time could realistically be saved, and does that justify the enormous cost of quad tracks ?

45kph sounds typical Metro. Suppose vline could always terminate at the boundary if that is so offensive.
CBTC will just squeeze maximum TPH out of the line by reducing the headways. Currently Fixed Block, going to moving block. However, this will not be installed in the V/line fleet so there will still be line side signalling and traditional Fixed Blocks that the HCMTS will have to work around.

Let's see how good my maths is. Laughing

The current South Line is a mix of class 2 (130Km/h), 2U (115km/h) and 1 (160km/h). Braking distance at 160km/h for a Vlo is 550m.

The current morning express from Traralgon (0519) to the Pakenham MTM Boundary takes 61 minutes. At a distance of 98km gives an average speed of just 96km/h. If the average speed was increased to 130Km/h this reduces the average time to 45 minutes. If that was pushed to 150Km/h (pushing it with braking distance for the 5 stations) travel time is reduced to 39 minutes.

This pushes the total travel time closer to 90 minutes as opposed to the 120 it currently is.

Pakenham to Dandenong is 26km. There is plenty of space to build a dedicated track pair for V/Line through to Dandenong. At 130km/h this reduces the running time from 22 minutes to 11.

With a decent two tier service (local & express), track upgrades and easing of a few curves you can shave almost 30 minutes of the running time with out the need to spend billions on acquisitions. Bringing the whole line up to Class 1 and a dedicated track to Dandenong would cost about the same, but money well spent.

Speed is only half the issue, reliability is the biggest one. Most can put up with a slightly longer journey if they know day in day the train will arrive/depart on time. Cancellations and delays are what put people off.

Spare a thought for the poor folk out at Bairnsdale, 90 minutes to Traralgon gives them an average speed of 77km/h. Class two track would slash that to 53 Minutes.

Lockie
Lockie91
Back the front for the stated speeds above  for V/locity  trains in that the allowed speeds are  :

Class - 1 160 kmh  Class - 2U  130 kmh  Class - 2  115 kmh
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Yesterday I caught the UP 12:54 from Bairnsdale after riding 60km from Nowa Nowa but I digress. As it was black Thursday, there were at lest 60 on at Bairnsdale and similar at Sale. By the time we departed Traralgon there was a good crowd on the 6 car V'Locity.

However apart from the N sets which give the illusion of being faster due to running semi-express, the V'Locity stopped all stations, which however if it were semi-express might only save about 20 mins because of the power to weight ratio of a V'Locity compared to an N set. I was happy with the speed of the train which from Bairnsdale to Sale was 100km/h and the track a lot smoother than I thought it could be.

Speed restrictions... Four completely idiotic speed restrictions between farmers private paddocks which sees any traffic across the line about fortnightly, judging by the wear and tear on the weeds. Simply nanny state gone mad, or some idiot in head office who hasn't bothered to look at the real world.

Mike.
The Vinelander
VLP are just out of control with SR at little used level crossings with excellent visibility in both directions for for both train drivers and motorists. In such cases 80kmh is far more appropriate than 40 - 60 kmh.

Warrnambool, Shepparrton, Swan Hill and Bairnsdale lines are just riddled with lx speed restrictions, with no medium term plan to accelerate installation of lx equipment other than on the Shepparton & Warrnmabool lines. .  Why cant flashing lights be installed at little used crossings on single lines  ??? There is no need or justification for boom barriers on single lines at low traffic volume crossings. Boom barriers are primarily needed at double track crossings where a retreating train can hide from view an approaching train on the other track.

There is no demonstrated proof on single lines that the presence of a flimsy boom barrer lowered over half the roadway is any more effective than flashing lights and bells in stopping motorists crossing illegally.

Wendouree - Ararat allows 130kmh for V/Locity on Class 2U track with a mix of flashing lights and boom barriers. There are some occo crossings but they work like the Echuca Line in that fixed gates are locked preventing road access across the railway and farmer Brown rings Centrol to find what rail traffic traffic is around, before unlocking the gates and making any movement of vehicles or stock across the railway. In typical Nanny State fashion such advice given by Centrol as to the presence of rail traffic is to be regarded as  "indicative".  !!!!!
  hbedriver Assistant Commissioner

The speed restrictions on the Sale-Bairnsdale are at locations with poor visibility, typically due to trees blocking the viewing. Speeds are determined so that the train driver on a V’locity has time to exit the cab prior to impact. The crossings are typically almost unused, however typical vehicles are heavy (tractors, heavy trucks), so presents high risk road train compared to a car.

One near Rosedale seems strange, the others past Sale are fair enough.

The cost difference between flashing lights only or booms as well is insignificant. Major costs are usually getting power on, track protect, testing, etc. Boom barriers are deemed to provide best protection, so they do the lot these days.

How was the rail trail?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
The speed restrictions on the Sale-Bairnsdale are at locations with poor visibility, typically due to trees blocking the viewing. Speeds are determined so that the train driver on a V’locity has time to exit the cab prior to impact. The crossings are typically almost unused, however typical vehicles are heavy (tractors, heavy trucks), so presents high risk road train compared to a car.

One near Rosedale seems strange, the others past Sale are fair enough.

The cost difference between flashing lights only or booms as well is insignificant. Major costs are usually getting power on, track protect, testing, etc. Boom barriers are deemed to provide best protection, so they do the lot these days.

How was the rail trail?
hbedriver
From the 'Lounge' Bacchus Marsh chicory kiln thread:

Update on my working holiday. Arrived at Orbost yesterday after a leisurely ride over about 4 hours and 40Km from Nowa Nowa where I spent two nights.

Nowa Nowa has an extensive mountain bike trail through the forest which is a magnificent ride away from all roads.

The arrival in Orbost is grand with views across the Snowy River flood plain to the now decomissioned railway trestle bridge, the longest in Victoria.





https://youtu.be/F66ir2hmCmM

Now the Andrews government has allocated $3.5 million towards restoration, the future looks bright for this sector of tourism in east Gippsland.

Black Thursday I rode 60km from Nowa Nowa to Bairnsdale in 4 hours where I caught the 12:54.

The rail trail was good apart from very few sandy sections, however I did clean and oil my chain when I got home Thursday night. I saw plenty of riders last Sunday and between Bruthen and Bairnsdale on Thursday. Traffic on the adjacent Princes Hwy was moderate to heavy before reaching Bairnsdale.

5 hours and 370km from Bairnsdale to Ballan...not bad and probably beats driving.

Mike.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

5 hours and 370km from Bairnsdale to Ballan...not bad and probably beats driving.

Mike.
I would be inclined to agree. Especially when one has to transit the Monash car park (freeway?) which adds even more time to the journey.
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Braking distance at 160km/h for a Vlo is 550m.
Lockie91
That would be fantastic if true, but braking distance at 160km/h is actually around 1030m for a full service stop. There are many reasons why you always allow longer than that though.

The current morning express from Traralgon (0519) to the Pakenham MTM Boundary takes 61 minutes. At a distance of 98km gives an average speed of just 96km/h.
Lockie91
The current network service plan has the 0519 at the MTM boundary (KP64.6) at 0616 which is 57 minutes to go the 93.472km from Traralgon (KP158.072) at an average speed of 98.3km/h.

It then takes 26 minutes to do the 33.41km's between the boundary and Dandenong (KP31.194) at an average 77km/h.

Dandenong to Caulfield (KP11.786) takes 31 minutes to cover the 19.408km at an average of 37.56km/h

Caulfield to Flinders St (which is where the 0519 terminates) takes 16 minutes to do the 10.554km's at an average speed of 39.5km/h


If the average speed was increased to 130Km/h this reduces the average time to 45 minutes. If that was pushed to 150Km/h (pushing it with braking distance for the 5 stations) travel time is reduced to 39 minutes. This pushes the total travel time closer to 90 minutes as opposed to the 120 it currently is. Pakenham to Dandenong is 26km. There is plenty of space to build a dedicated track pair for V/Line through to Dandenong. At 130km/h this reduces the running time from 22 minutes to 11. With a decent two tier service (local & express), track upgrades and easing of a few curves you can shave almost 30 minutes of the running time with out the need to spend billions on acquisitions. Bringing the whole line up to Class 1 and a dedicated track to Dandenong would cost about the same, but money well spent.
Lockie91
What you say is great in theory but can't translate into reality. How are going to achieve anything even remotely close to those average speeds? It would require a much faster maximum line speed than 160km/h and a more powerful vehicle than a Vlocity. Its easy to say just upgrade the track and ease a few curves, and yes i'm sure some could be made a few km/h higher, but don't forget those curves and 1 in 50 grades are there for a reason. Its also the reason the south line isn't already all class 1, its pointless having track built to a class 1 standard when the terrain only allows for 100km/h curves such as the Longwarry to Warragul section.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Re: speeding up Gippsland vlines on Pakenham and quadding - it'll probably not pass the pub test at Treasury if it's just about benefits for Gippsland Vline, you have to include Pakenham benefits as well.

Plus, a reversal of thinking may be required - starting from the outside and working in, through two phases.

Starting from the Pakenham end, rather than the city end will provide some benefits - but not all - if the quadding is done Pakenham-Dandenong-Oakleigh as the first phase (in all areas where there's oodles of space on the surface/space left over from the LX programme for more track.

From the city, everything would have the same stopping pattern to Caulfield (Pakenham/Cranbournes via ANZAC / Vlines via SY then express to Caulfield) then Pakenham/Cranbourne SAS to Oakleigh and Vline expresses/limps behind metro and then Pakenham/Vline go onto the new track pair/Cranbourne stays on existing pair.  Pakenham/Vline stopping pattern is the same: Clayton for SRL then Dandenong, Cranbourne stopping pattern is SAS to Dandenong.  From Dandenong, Pakenham metro uses existing pair, Vline uses new pair.  Oakleigh-Dandenong should aim to have max speed of 100kph, Dandenong-Pakenham on new track pair should aim for 130-160kph.

Vline and Pakenham get faster journeys (thanks to the Oakleigh-Clayton-Dandenong express section) and then this allows a second phase to built at a later date like the one in the leaked NDP from 2018 (i.e rather than quadding Oakleigh-Caulfield, a new line that diverts to a station at Chadstone then another track pair - probably underground - between Caulfield and South Yarra).

If we can accept that it'll be slow in the Caulfield-Oakleigh section (or we're happy to terminate Vlines at Oakeligh or Clayton - whether all or some is another question), at least for the time before the second phase is built, you'll see benefits elsewhere... and when it's complete more benefits are unlocked plus potentially new destinations (eg. Chadstone from the NDP).
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
...I should have added as a conclusion - by reorganising services to something like that, you are demonstrating clear benefits for Pakenham line passengers (which in the grand scheme will carry many more people than the Vlines). If we get a 10 minute time shaving off the journey to the city for people using metro between Dandenong and Pakenham (where patronge will grow over time as it's the last part of the area within the urban growth boundary in the south east) - that's yyyuuuge.  

Alas, it's a project ostensibly for speeding up Gippsland, but it is bolstered when you also focus on metro benefits too.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The current network service plan has the 0519 at the MTM boundary (KP64.6) at 0616 which is 57 minutes to go the 93.472km from Traralgon (KP158.072) at an average speed of 98.3km/h.

It then takes 26 minutes to do the 33.41km's between the boundary and Dandenong (KP31.194) at an average 77km/h.

jakar

With the ideal quad of Pakenham to Dandenong, the thing that I do not get, and perhaps you will enlighten

The 0519 Up passes thru Pakenham @ 0620
The preceeding Metro left @ 0556, and will arrive at Dandeong in 3 minutes.
The next Metro is not leaving Pakenham until 0636.

Soooooo, how is Metro holding up Vline, and why running express so slow on a 115kph track?
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The current network service plan has the 0519 at the MTM boundary (KP64.6) at 0616 which is 57 minutes to go the 93.472km from Traralgon (KP158.072) at an average speed of 98.3km/h.

It then takes 26 minutes to do the 33.41km's between the boundary and Dandenong (KP31.194) at an average 77km/h.

With the ideal quad of Pakenham to Dandenong, the thing that I do not get, and perhaps you will enlighten

The 0519 Up passes thru Pakenham @ 0620
The preceeding Metro left @ 0556, and will arrive at Dandeong in 3 minutes.
The next Metro is not leaving Pakenham until 0636.

Soooooo, how is Metro holding up Vline, and why running express so slow on a 115kph track?
justarider
Your first task in your quest for enlightenment is to look at the weekday timetable, not Saturdays! Wink

Looking at trains other than the 0519 and outside of the peak, Pakenham station to Dandenong can be done in 18 minutes to cover the 26.99 kilometers at an average of 89.99km/h. From the MTM boundary to Dandenong trains average slightly less at 87.15km/h to cover the 33.41 kilometers in 23 minutes as there is a bit of padding between the MTM boundary and Pakenham to allow for any late running.

The times are departure to departure so also include dwell time at Dandenong, plus there are a few curves in the section so braking/rolling and acceleration times will knock the average speed down a bit. The average speeds are still quite respectable though which is why I look for time savings on the UP side of Dandenong where average speed drops to over half of the maximum line speed.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The current network service plan has the 0519 at the MTM boundary (KP64.6) at 0616 which is 57 minutes to go the 93.472km from Traralgon (KP158.072) at an average speed of 98.3km/h.

It then takes 26 minutes to do the 33.41km's between the boundary and Dandenong (KP31.194) at an average 77km/h.

With the ideal quad of Pakenham to Dandenong, the thing that I do not get, and perhaps you will enlighten

The 0519 Up passes thru Pakenham @ 0620
The preceeding Metro left @ 0556, and will arrive at Dandeong in 3 minutes.
The next Metro is not leaving Pakenham until 0636.

Soooooo, how is Metro holding up Vline, and why running express so slow on a 115kph track?
Your first task in your quest for enlightenment is to look at the weekday timetable, not Saturdays! Wink

Looking at trains other than the 0519 and outside of the peak, Pakenham station to Dandenong can be done in 18 minutes to cover the 26.99 kilometers at an average of 89.99km/h. From the MTM boundary to Dandenong trains average slightly less at 87.15km/h to cover the 33.41 kilometers in 23 minutes as there is a bit of padding between the MTM boundary and Pakenham to allow for any late running.

The times are departure to departure so also include dwell time at Dandenong, plus there are a few curves in the section so braking/rolling and acceleration times will knock the average speed down a bit. The average speeds are still quite respectable though which is why I look for time savings on the UP side of Dandenong where average speed drops to over half of the maximum line speed.
jakar
Got me. Today(monday) is railway saturday.

Normal weekday, the train preceeding is the 0612, which is 10 minutes down the line, nearly Beaconfield, with 16 minutes to go to Dandeong,
when the vlo trundles thru Pakenham. Hardly blocking the track. At flat chat you still wouldn't catch up.

Perhaps you said it all with the magic word "padding".
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The current network service plan has the 0519 at the MTM boundary (KP64.6) at 0616 which is 57 minutes to go the 93.472km from Traralgon (KP158.072) at an average speed of 98.3km/h.

It then takes 26 minutes to do the 33.41km's between the boundary and Dandenong (KP31.194) at an average 77km/h.

With the ideal quad of Pakenham to Dandenong, the thing that I do not get, and perhaps you will enlighten

The 0519 Up passes thru Pakenham @ 0620
The preceeding Metro left @ 0556, and will arrive at Dandeong in 3 minutes.
The next Metro is not leaving Pakenham until 0636.

Soooooo, how is Metro holding up Vline, and why running express so slow on a 115kph track?
Your first task in your quest for enlightenment is to look at the weekday timetable, not Saturdays! Wink

Looking at trains other than the 0519 and outside of the peak, Pakenham station to Dandenong can be done in 18 minutes to cover the 26.99 kilometers at an average of 89.99km/h. From the MTM boundary to Dandenong trains average slightly less at 87.15km/h to cover the 33.41 kilometers in 23 minutes as there is a bit of padding between the MTM boundary and Pakenham to allow for any late running.

The times are departure to departure so also include dwell time at Dandenong, plus there are a few curves in the section so braking/rolling and acceleration times will knock the average speed down a bit. The average speeds are still quite respectable though which is why I look for time savings on the UP side of Dandenong where average speed drops to over half of the maximum line speed.
Got me. Today(monday) is railway saturday.

Normal weekday, the train preceeding is the 0612, which is 10 minutes down the line, nearly Beaconfield, with 16 minutes to go to Dandeong,
when the vlo trundles thru Pakenham. Hardly blocking the track. At flat chat you still wouldn't catch up.

Perhaps you said it all with the magic word "padding".
justarider
Not so, the 0519 is timetabled to be through Berwick at 0629 which is the same time the 0612 Pakenham departure is at Narre Warren just one station ahead, the 0519 easily catches it.

Anyway I fail to see your point with all this, as i've said i'm not pushing for extra tracks between Pakenham and Dandenong as most trains currently run unimpeded through this section at the current Metro frequency. The issues in the down direction before Pakenham will hopefully be addressed with the reconstruction of Pakenham and Pakenham East.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Not so, the 0519 is timetabled to be through Berwick at 0629 which is the same time the 0612 Pakenham departure is at Narre Warren just one station ahead, the 0519 easily catches it.

Anyway I fail to see your point with all this, as i've said i'm not pushing for extra tracks between Pakenham and Dandenong as most trains currently run unimpeded through this section at the current Metro frequency. The issues in the down direction before Pakenham will hopefully be addressed with the reconstruction of Pakenham and Pakenham East.
jakar
Thanks @jakar for the correction. That detail fills in the info mssing from the published TT.

Hence, the Vlo really does have its skates on.

I suppose the point is, push come to shove, that train could overtake the Metro @ Dandenong,
which is the same idealised resullt as building a new dedicated express track.
THEN ??
just eventually run up the back of the previous Metro and repeat the same bemoan of speed. Not much gained at all.

PS a new express track from Pakenham, would NOT be useful for Metro.
Running an express only 1/4 full at best is not the way to move bulk passengers. The job is pick up pax along the way. Same reason why there are no express starting @ Belgrave, Mernda.

cheers
John
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Country trains used to stop all stations Pakenham to Oakleigh.  I assume the withdrawl of most intermediate stops is due to increased suburban frequency and to minimize overlap staffing at suburban stations.  However with the further increasing in frequency on the Pakenham line and the lack of overtaking provisions, they might as well all stop at Berwick, Clayton and possibly Oakleigh.  This provides maximum convenience for passengers at minimal cost (marginal increase in wear and tear of brake shoes and fuel comsumption, but there is idle consumption if you free wheel anyway).
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Country trains used to stop all stations Pakenham to Oakleigh.  I assume the withdrawl of most intermediate stops is due to increased suburban frequency and to minimize overlap staffing at suburban stations.  However with the further increasing in frequency on the Pakenham line and the lack of overtaking provisions, they might as well all stop at Berwick, Clayton and possibly Oakleigh.  This provides maximum convenience for passengers at minimal cost (marginal increase in wear and tear of brake shoes and fuel comsumption, but there is idle consumption if you free wheel anyway).
route14
Oakleigh has 3 platforms because back in the 1890s it was the end of the "world" (boundary rd had a meaning back then, before it was renamed to warrigal rd). No different to Geelong trains picking up pax all the way to Newport. Times change and the railways change with it. Time for them to keep changing with some additional tracks between at least caulfield and dandenong where stopping patterns differ the most (and with an overtaking lane somewhere halfway between dandenong and pakenham). Cranbourne trains can stop all stations and Pakenham/Vline trains can run express.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
Country trains used to stop all stations Pakenham to Oakleigh.  I assume the withdrawl of most intermediate stops is due to increased suburban frequency and to minimize overlap staffing at suburban stations.  However with the further increasing in frequency on the Pakenham line and the lack of overtaking provisions, they might as well all stop at Berwick, Clayton and possibly Oakleigh.  This provides maximum convenience for passengers at minimal cost (marginal increase in wear and tear of brake shoes and fuel comsumption, but there is idle consumption if you free wheel anyway).
route14
Gee, you must have gone back to the steam era, which renders your comparison obsolete at best.

When I was a lad, country trains stopped all stations Pakenham to Dandenong for the simple reason that there were no wires. They then ran directly to Caulfield. The only reason that one train each way per weekday still stops at Berwick now is for school dropoffs/pickups - I assume that a long term deal was made many years ago.

It is selfish to want all V-Line trains to stop at Berwick, Clayton and Oakleigh because "They might as well." Even if marketed as set down only for Up services, and pick up only for Down services, it is pretty obvious that it wouldn't be treated that way, further exacerbating the problem faced by Gippsland commuters now - metropolitan users on a country train taking their seats on Down services.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Oakleigh doesn't have 3 platforms any more. Platform 1 (southern) was abolished and Platform 2 became a side platform. Platforms 2 & 3 were renumbered 1 & 2 respectively. It still has crossovers.

Westall won out.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Braking distance at 160km/h for a Vlo is 550m.
That would be fantastic if true, but braking distance at 160km/h is actually around 1030m for a full service stop. There are many reasons why you always allow longer than that though.

The current morning express from Traralgon (0519) to the Pakenham MTM Boundary takes 61 minutes. At a distance of 98km gives an average speed of just 96km/h.
The current network service plan has the 0519 at the MTM boundary (KP64.6) at 0616 which is 57 minutes to go the 93.472km from Traralgon (KP158.072) at an average speed of 98.3km/h.

It then takes 26 minutes to do the 33.41km's between the boundary and Dandenong (KP31.194) at an average 77km/h.

Dandenong to Caulfield (KP11.786) takes 31 minutes to cover the 19.408km at an average of 37.56km/h

Caulfield to Flinders St (which is where the 0519 terminates) takes 16 minutes to do the 10.554km's at an average speed of 39.5km/h


If the average speed was increased to 130Km/h this reduces the average time to 45 minutes. If that was pushed to 150Km/h (pushing it with braking distance for the 5 stations) travel time is reduced to 39 minutes. This pushes the total travel time closer to 90 minutes as opposed to the 120 it currently is. Pakenham to Dandenong is 26km. There is plenty of space to build a dedicated track pair for V/Line through to Dandenong. At 130km/h this reduces the running time from 22 minutes to 11. With a decent two tier service (local & express), track upgrades and easing of a few curves you can shave almost 30 minutes of the running time with out the need to spend billions on acquisitions. Bringing the whole line up to Class 1 and a dedicated track to Dandenong would cost about the same, but money well spent.
What you say is great in theory but can't translate into reality. How are going to achieve anything even remotely close to those average speeds? It would require a much faster maximum line speed than 160km/h and a more powerful vehicle than a Vlocity. Its easy to say just upgrade the track and ease a few curves, and yes i'm sure some could be made a few km/h higher, but don't forget those curves and 1 in 50 grades are there for a reason. It's also the reason the south line isn't already all class 1, its pointless having track built to a class 1 standard when the terrain only allows for 100km/h curves such as the Longwarry to Warragul section.
jakar
I was waiting for someone to come along and crunch my back of the envelope maths a little harder than I did at 4am.

It can easily translate with the right investment, gradients and curves and be relaid to bring them to modern standards.

The Velocity is plenty powerful, it has been tuned down for Victoria with its stated Max speed of 210KM/h.

Anyway the point of my post was to highlight that more can and should be done between Pakenham and Bairnsdale to upgrade the line and therefore reduce running time and increase reliability.
Everyone in this thread seems to be obsessed with the small and prohibitive section of track towards the city. Even if, not that it will ever happen, the government sunk the Billions into building a dedicate line from Dandenong to Caulfield at 80km/h it will only save 15 minutes.

Less money can be spent for the same time savings if not more by investing beyond Pakenham. This also isn't political suicide, its a vote winner for Labor in the regions. Building a dedicated track is going to upset thousands of people who's homes will be acquired, to build a train line for the minority. It will kill any government.

This also doesn't solve the issue of Caulfield > City. If the original plans for MM1 had of been built as proposed in 2008 this would of given Gippsland services 6km of dedicated track to South Yarra.

Lockie
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland




I was waiting for someone to come along and crunch my back of the envelope maths a little harder than I did at 4am.

It can easily translate with the right investment, gradients and curves and be relaid to bring them to modern standards.

The Velocity is plenty powerful, it has been tuned down for Victoria with its stated Max speed of 210KM/h.

Anyway the point of my post was to highlight that more can and should be done between Pakenham and Bairnsdale to upgrade the line and therefore reduce running time and increase reliability.

Less money can be spent for the same time savings if not more by investing beyond Pakenham. This also isn't political suicide, its a vote winner for Labor in the regions.
Lockie
Lockie91
I really don't know where you are going to find the time savings ?

Flagship Express Train's have largely failed to get the publics approval on the VLine network (due to stations been skipped leaving big holes In the timetable)

Flogging the guts out of the Velocity engine / drivetrain's Is going to surge their fuel and maintenance costs.

Modern line electrification (not the 1950's technology that was removed In 1994 and 2004) and high tech electric trains could save a bit on Inter station running, but who's going to pay for that ?

As for curve realignment, land values and availability of vacant land around Drouin and Warragul would be a significant Issue.
The alignment through the Haunted Hills Isn't great, but Is hampered by difficult ground conditions and a worked out open cut coal mine.  

Traralgon to Bairnsdale has the opportunity for faster running (on the straight sections) If the track was upgraded and maintained to a higher standard.
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Maybe they should straighten and widen the reservation now, before land values in the soon-to-be future eastern suburb of Sale get too high.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Maybe they should straighten and widen the reservation now, before land values in the soon-to-be future eastern suburb of Sale get too high.
Djebel
Where are you looking
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
I was waiting for someone to come along and crunch my back of the envelope maths a little harder than I did at 4am.

It can easily translate with the right investment, gradients and curves and be relaid to bring them to modern standards.

The Velocity is plenty powerful, it has been tuned down for Victoria with its stated Max speed of 210KM/h.

Anyway the point of my post was to highlight that more can and should be done between Pakenham and Bairnsdale to upgrade the line and therefore reduce running time and increase reliability.
Everyone in this thread seems to be obsessed with the small and prohibitive section of track towards the city. Even if, not that it will ever happen, the government sunk the Billions into building a dedicate line from Dandenong to Caulfield at 80km/h it will only save 15 minutes.

Less money can be spent for the same time savings if not more by investing beyond Pakenham. This also isn't political suicide, its a vote winner for Labor in the regions. Building a dedicated track is going to upset thousands of people who's homes will be acquired, to build a train line for the minority. It will kill any government.

This also doesn't solve the issue of Caulfield > City. If the original plans for MM1 had of been built as proposed in 2008 this would of given Gippsland services 6km of dedicated track to South Yarra.

Lockie
Lockie91
Well, something has already been done between Pakenham and Bairnsdale, in the form of a new bridge at Stratford which has saved several minutes. This has been offset however by making all Bairnsdale trains served by V-Locities stop at all stations just like a Traralgon local service. I assume this has been done to standardise the running time for the bulk of the day between Traralgon and Pakenham for passenger trains regardless whether they are local V-Locities or semi-express N-Sets.

Caulfield > City is not a problem. V-Line trains are not held up in that section because Pakenham/Cranbourne Metro trains run express between Caulfield and South Yarra anyway, and most V-Line trains also stop at Richmond.

i guess the reason that most of the noise seems to be centred around spending money between Dandenong and Caulfield to alleviate congestion, is because that's where the congestion actually is. For example bypassing Trafalgar for motorists to save a few minutes means diddly squat if you're still going to be stuck on the Monash carpark (but that's a different story).
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
As for curve realignment, land values and availability of vacant land around Drouin and Warragul would be a significant Issue.
The alignment through the Haunted Hills Isn't great, but Is hampered by difficult ground conditions and a worked out open cut coal mine.  

Traralgon to Bairnsdale has the opportunity for faster running (on the straight sections) If the track was upgraded and maintained to a higher standard.
Nightfire
Having said what I did in my previous post, some time savings could still be easily made with relatively minor projects outside of the Metro area, however. But again, it's only skirting around the issue of slow running times within the Metro boundary.

The 115 km/h curve at Nilma could be eased by digging a bit closer to the highway. This would allow V-locities to continually accelerate on the Down from Warragul and reach max speed far earlier, and would mean Up trains wouldn't have to brake hard still 3km from Warragul. Some train drivers seem happy to coast from there too, which doesn't help.

The speed restrictive S-bend just Up of Morwell River, which forms the original deviation around Yallourn mine, could also easily be straightened. There is absolutely no reason why V-Locity trains should not run unimpeded between Morwell and Herne's Oak, but as it is now they barely keep up with the adjacent highway traffic.

To my pet peeve. What on earth is going on with the track just Down from Morwell, around the bend and through the cutting and past the old Maryvale exchange behind Mid Valley shopping centre? Trains have been speed restricted in that section for years, with no sign whatsoever of any planned remedial work to restore track condition.

Finally, I totally agree that upgrading from Class 3 beyond Traralgon would help, but for just a few trains each way per day, is it worth it? And how would it help the 95% of passengers/commuters who board from Traralgon or anywhere west of there?

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