Regional Rail Revival - Geelong / Warrnambool Line Projects

 
  Carnot Minister for Railways

And I almost forgot the most intriguing bit. How the @/%& does that cost 4 BILLION DOLLARS. ?
$4B for 10km of track???
It will be very interesting to read the Scope Of Works, when it's eventually made available.
Lockspike
Short Answer is inflation and unionisation. Its not as simples as just laying a new pair of tracks and doing some minor earthworks. This is what its being spent on

  • New track dedicated to regional services (between Werribee and Laverton).
  • Upgrades to bridges over main roads.
  • Station upgrades at Werribee and Laverton
  • New bridges and culverts over creeks and rivers.
  • Signalling and train control system upgrades.
Probably can add Track Slews and Nimbyism to things to contend with. Also I was under the impression that 4 billion was the entire project, with the express tracks only being Stage one of the project.
"Dangersdan707"


I still think it's crazy stupid expensive.  The whole RRL was completed in 2015 for approx. $3.5 billion and involved dozens of kilometres of new Class 1 track, flyovers, new stations, station rebuilds, bridges, etc etc, much of which was in a built-up urban environment.

Who is on the take?  Who is plating the rail heads in platinum?

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  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I wondered if $4billion might include duplicating Altona / skyrailing (and rebuilding) Westona to Altona, a second platform at Seaholme and removal of the level crossings between Altona junction and Newport.

Wezza - as a basic level of service (4 or 6 TPH) can just run via Altona with peak periods seeing all the extra services running via existing express route.  

Re: Altona duplication, otherwise, I can't think of the logic of ending new track pair from Werribee at Laverton (only real logic I can think of is because most Werribee services would peal off via a newly duplicated Altona loop).

Anyhoo.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Will the government be electrifying Geelong for the faster services between Werribee and Laverton and will the works also include the West Werribee station and connection around the bend to the WV station?
  mike49 Locomotive Fireman

I have never really seen the problem with journey times to Geelong, it doesn't take any longer than the travel time to many outer suburbs.

To me the real issue is the lack of capacity due to running maximum 6 car trains. The money being spent on Werribee to Laverton might provide better value if it was used to make provision for larger trains, 9 cars would be good.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Will the government be electrifying Geelong for the faster services between Werribee and Laverton and will the works also include the West Werribee station and connection around the bend to the WV station?
NSWGR8022
Not based on the information available so far. Based on what I've read, stage 1 is only the Werribee to Laverton (and whatever associated works go with that). Stage 2, and beyond, may look at electrification.
For a change a government is treating rail in the same way as roads; in stages, not one huge all-in-one item. Hopefully, this means that with one part done there'll be good arguments to do stage 2, and then stage 3, and so on.

The connection from Werribee to Wyndham Vale is part of the Western Rail Plan &/or SRL, details of which are, supposed to be, being considered at the moment. When they announce WRP/SRL stage 2 details you'll see that coming out. This announcement should be made in the next year, or two, as 2022 is the date this was to be done.

Neil
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
I have never really seen the problem with journey times to Geelong, it doesn't take any longer than the travel time to many outer suburbs.

To me the real issue is the lack of capacity due to running maximum 6 car trains. The money being spent on Werribee to Laverton might provide better value if it was used to make provision for larger trains, 9 cars would be good.
"mike49"
agreed - tell Belgrave & Pakenham pax about "high speed rail"
9 car vlo have been trialed in recent months and platforms are being stretched as we speak. The new TT in Jan/Feb should be interesting.
  John E Locomotive Fireman

If it is only a single line it could accommodate up to 4 TPH in each direction. Werribee to Laverton is 10 km. It would take 5 mins at an average speed of 120 km/h, thus a train in each direction would occupy 10 mins. Allowing 2.5 mins between each exit/entry as a safety margin means 2 trains in the same direction would have to be spaced at least 15 mins apart.

It would require Up and Down V/Line trains to be timetabled so they don’t need to pass between Werribee and Laverton, which could have ramifications for timetabling on other parts of the line, such as passing at the Geelong tunnel. The current timetabled interval for a Werribee – Hoppers Crossing – Laverton is 11 minutes, which means for a V/Line train to overtake and arrive at Laverton 2 mins ahead of a Metro train it has to arrive at Werribee within 4 mins of the Metro train’s departure. Up and Down Metro trains would also have to be synchronised. It would all be a bit of a mess if trains don’t run to schedule.

If it’s not already available, some sort of flow control software could easily be developed to give each driver, Metro and V/Line, an optimum speed and route for normal and abnormal situations (with signalling taking absolute priority of course). A late-running V/Line in one direction might have to use the local line behind a Metro train.
kitchgp
I thought there was 1 or 2 new stations planned to be built on the Werribee line - Derrimut road being one. So that 11 minutes could be 13 or 14 minutes in the future.

Likewise if Geelong trains still go via Wyndham Vale, they could encounter the same issues as they build more stations (Blackforest Road, Tarneit etc.)
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

The investment in the new tracks and upgrades is a clear sign that the government is moving to a via MM2 to Southern Cross option.

This first stage is great but it’s going to be a challenge considering the potential bottleneck between Newport - Footscray. Potentially they could upgrade signals to squeeze TPH, or start taking some of the metro paths. We need to remember also that MM1 would be open by the time we have these new tracks, so pulling some Werribee line passengers on to an electrified Wyndham Vale line will help.

Also by this time I would expect 9car VLocity consists to be operating.
  Upven Junior Train Controller

And I almost forgot the most intriguing bit. How the @/%& does that cost 4 BILLION DOLLARS. ?
$4B for 10km of track???
It will be very interesting to read the Scope Of Works, when it's eventually made available.
Short Answer is inflation and unionisation. Its not as simples as just laying a new pair of tracks and doing some minor earthworks. This is what its being spent on

  • New track dedicated to regional services (between Werribee and Laverton).
  • Upgrades to bridges over main roads.
  • Station upgrades at Werribee and Laverton
  • New bridges and culverts over creeks and rivers.
  • Signalling and train control system upgrades.
Probably can add Track Slews and Nimbyism to things to contend with. Also I was under the impression that 4 billion was the entire project, with the express tracks only being Stage one of the project.
Dangersdan707
Inflation is virtually nonexistent, it's 100% unionised Victoria.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Is a new Laverton to Werribee express track going to really achieve much (without the Metro 2 Tunnel direct connection to SXS) ?


There still Is going to be stop all stations suburban train between Newport and Southern Cross.


The section between North Melbourne and Southern Cross was always riddled with hold ups and delays.


One thing that might be looked at, there are 12 level crossings between Werribee and North Geelong (6 between Manor Junction and Lara) most of the roads could be easily and cheaply grade separated (road bridge over the railway with an earth ramp each end)

Station Street North Shore/North Geelong level crossing being the hardest, but probably ranks as the highest public risk crossing on the line.


If the level crossing were removed (Including pedestrian crossings at Railway Stations) the whole railway corridor could be securely fenced off (to the public) greatly reducing the Interaction between fast moving trains and the general public.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

The Werribee / Williamstown line only runs 12TPH UP in the 7am-8am Peak, with signalling upgrades they could somewhat simply fit 4 Geelong TPH in each direction.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
To me the real issue is the lack of capacity due to running maximum 6 car trains.
mike49
It's not lack of capacity, it's lack of services. Melbourne suburban sets only have 6 carriages (and a seventh car with the HCMT stock won't make a lick of difference). In fact, some trains still only have 3 carriages even in shoulder peak (e.g. 8-9PM) with the train being packed with about 400 people by the time it leaves Flinders Street towards Southern Cross and the City Loop (Ringwood line represent) .

Running 9-car trains is only worthwhile to the government because it means they can run less trains (running 9 cars every 20-30-40 minutes, or whatever the Geelong line has these days, is less than running 6 cars every 15 minutes, with the latter also requiring two drivers and luck with signalling). On a similar scale, think about how Melbourne (barely) manages to survive with basically nothing but Z class trams (and the odd A/B/D class) every 10 seconds on Swanston Street while the gargantuan E class trams run on Bourke Street every 5 minutes.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

Well the truth is that the Newport - Footscray section of route will be congested, so in peak times at least they should run 9car VLocity, because most people will opt for the express service.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The Werribee / Williamstown line only runs 12TPH UP in the 7am-8am Peak, with signalling upgrades they could somewhat simply fit 4 Geelong TPH in each direction.
Jordy33
But not at the '200 km/h' or whatever the Geelongites wish for.
It will still take around 33%+ of the running time in the Melbourne Metrop regardless of what the theoretical timetable says.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

The Werribee / Williamstown line only runs 12TPH UP in the 7am-8am Peak, with signalling upgrades they could somewhat simply fit 4 Geelong TPH in each direction.
But not at the '200 km/h' or whatever the Geelongites wish for.
It will still take around 33%+ of the running time in the Melbourne Metrop regardless of what the theoretical timetable says.
YM-Mundrabilla
Yes - I should of been more clear as I was talking about the Newport - Footscray section only.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The project is now out in the market https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/australia-begins-process-of-procuring-a1bn-in-regional-rail-upgrades
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

And I almost forgot the most intriguing bit. How the @/%& does that cost 4 BILLION DOLLARS. ?
$4B for 10km of track???
It will be very interesting to read the Scope Of Works, when it's eventually made available.
Short Answer is inflation and unionisation. Its not as simples as just laying a new pair of tracks and doing some minor earthworks. This is what its being spent on

  • New track dedicated to regional services (between Werribee and Laverton).
  • Upgrades to bridges over main roads.
  • Station upgrades at Werribee and Laverton
  • New bridges and culverts over creeks and rivers.
  • Signalling and train control system upgrades.
Probably can add Track Slews and Nimbyism to things to contend with. Also I was under the impression that 4 billion was the entire project, with the express tracks only being Stage one of the project.
Dangersdan707
$ 2bn for third track high speed bi di signalling from Up side of Laverton to Werribee for Geelong trains only. Plus some re-signalling to get higher capacity probably between Footscray & Newport. Anything counterpeak via suburban line or RRL .

The other $ 2bn comes from probably from remove 11 level crossings between Werribee and Geelong, and track upgrade to achieve 200kmh Weeribbe to North Shore . Stage 2
  GD Train Controller

Location: Geelong Vic
And I almost forgot the most intriguing bit. How the @/%& does that cost 4 BILLION DOLLARS. ?
$4B for 10km of track???
It will be very interesting to read the Scope Of Works, when it's eventually made available.
Short Answer is inflation and unionisation. Its not as simples as just laying a new pair of tracks and doing some minor earthworks. This is what its being spent on

  • New track dedicated to regional services (between Werribee and Laverton).
  • Upgrades to bridges over main roads.
  • Station upgrades at Werribee and Laverton
  • New bridges and culverts over creeks and rivers.
  • Signalling and train control system upgrades.
Probably can add Track Slews and Nimbyism to things to contend with. Also I was under the impression that 4 billion was the entire project, with the express tracks only being Stage one of the project.
$ 2bn for third track high speed bi di signalling from Up side of Laverton to Werribee for Geelong trains only. Plus some re-signalling to get higher capacity probably between Footscray & Newport. Anything counterpeak via suburban line or RRL .

The other $ 2bn comes from probably from remove 11 level crossings between Werribee and Geelong, and track upgrade to achieve 200kmh Weeribbe to North Shore . Stage 2
kuldalai
At his price it would seam cheaper to simply quad the RRL as per the original long term plan.
Therefore separating regional from metro stations.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

And I almost forgot the most intriguing bit. How the @/%& does that cost 4 BILLION DOLLARS. ?
$4B for 10km of track???
It will be very interesting to read the Scope Of Works, when it's eventually made available.
Short Answer is inflation and unionisation. Its not as simples as just laying a new pair of tracks and doing some minor earthworks. This is what its being spent on

  • New track dedicated to regional services (between Werribee and Laverton).
  • Upgrades to bridges over main roads.
  • Station upgrades at Werribee and Laverton
  • New bridges and culverts over creeks and rivers.
  • Signalling and train control system upgrades.
Probably can add Track Slews and Nimbyism to things to contend with. Also I was under the impression that 4 billion was the entire project, with the express tracks only being Stage one of the project.
$ 2bn for third track high speed bi di signalling from Up side of Laverton to Werribee for Geelong trains only. Plus some re-signalling to get higher capacity probably between Footscray & Newport. Anything counterpeak via suburban line or RRL .

The other $ 2bn comes from probably from remove 11 level crossings between Werribee and Geelong, and track upgrade to achieve 200kmh Weeribbe to North Shore . Stage 2
At his price it would seam cheaper to simply quad the RRL as per the original long term plan.
Therefore separating regional from metro stations.
GD
I tend to agree.  But with contractors charging like wounded bulls to build anything, we (the taxpayers) are going to be rorted something shocking either way.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Weekly Operational Notice 14/2021 details the installation of 3 x sets of motorised points for the new Boorcan Loop, 1 x down-facing and 2 x up-facing. The diagram in the Regional Rail Revival’s Current works webpage (below) shows the loop, and a crossover about 600 metres from the eastern end of the loop. What is the purpose of the crossover?

https://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/warrnambool/current-works#boorcan
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Weekly Operational Notice 14/2021 details the installation of 3 x sets of motorised points for the new Boorcan Loop, 1 x down-facing and 2 x up-facing. The diagram in the Regional Rail Revival’s Current works webpage (below) shows the loop, and a crossover about 600 metres from the eastern end of the loop. What is the purpose of the crossover?

https://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/warrnambool/current-works#boorcan
kitchgp
It's like the new loop can function  as a short crossing loop and refuge loop at the same time ?
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

A passenger can pass another passenger and overtake a freight?? It's 2 km long.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Will this loop get used ?

Last investment was a loop
Seldom used when crosses can also be done at the stations on the line.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Many crosses are currently done at Camperdown, which is fine for freight, but for 2 passenger trains to cross there and also stop at the single platform station, the first train must stop at the station, then set back and enter the crossing loop and wait to cross the pass coming the other way. It is a time consuming and antiquated operational practise.

Boorcan Loop is essentially designed to remove this manoeuvre with a straight cross away from the station. Once Boorcan loop is up and running, trains will no longer cross at Camperdown.

This will then provide 2 crossing loops between Waurn Ponds and Warrnambool.

As for the unusual set up of Boorcan loop, it is designed to give freight more flexibility when Warrnambool gets 5 pass trains per day. A freighter can get put away at Boorcan loop while both an up and down pass cross at the same time.

Also, if it works for freight, it will also allow heritage trains to continue to travel to Warrnambool when the timetable gets its extra services added.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Thanks. The same page mentions signalling upgrades at Terang, Camperdown, Colac, etc. What is the nature of the upgrades? Are they to create some sort of block points?

https://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/warrnambool/current-works#boorcan

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