Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
On RP alone, it's now 53 pages and counting, let alone all the other sources of government and non-government words on the subject. Never, in the field of human endeavour, have so many words been said and written for zero tangible result.
Until physical work actually starts, the Airport Rail Line unfortunately remains in Fantasyland.

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  8502 Junior Train Controller

Not living far from this area I too am not happy about the skyrail concept outlined in https://Railpage.com.au/news/s/uproar-over-sky-rail-plan-for-melbourne-airport-trains where the track will be elevated.  Why can't this be done another way?
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Same reason as most locations - because going under is either too expensive, or a crap option engineering-wise.

But also, living near Skyrail myself, the "uproar" elsewhere has turned out to be about 20-30% actual locals complaining and the other 70-80% David Davis / Herald Sun astroturf.  These plans were public knowledge months ago, and the Herald Sun only drums up a story now?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Skyrail is an apt name for Melb Airport Rail. As long as it doesn't inhibit Bendigo VLine services and a SG link to WIFT at Truganina, I'm happy with it.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Not living far from this area I too am not happy about the skyrail concept outlined in https://Railpage.com.au/news/s/uproar-over-sky-rail-plan-for-melbourne-airport-trains where the track will be elevated.  Why can't this be done another way?
8502
why? they are doing it to annoy the S>>H>>>I>>>T>>> out of you............................
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Some interesting facts around the impact of Transurban contracts with the government and the Melbourne Airport Rail Line.



If this is to be believed and it is from PTUA then could this be the reason the government has been dragging its heals on the airport link?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Some interesting facts around the impact of Transurban contracts with the government and the Melbourne Airport Rail Line.

If this is to be believed and it is from PTUA then could this be the reason the government has been dragging its heals on the airport link?
bevans

Answer is no, the lack of advocacy for the airport train line had nothing to do with Transurban contracts.

The actual answer is lacking of funding and commitment to the idea, it was either seen way too expensive, or not economically feasible or practical. No state government really disagreed on the need of an Airport train line, it was just when was the right time to build one.

Building the Airport line always was a technical challenge, due to the nature of being a spur off a busy main line (Broadmeadows/Sunshine), which really didn't help, or any dedicated full line to the city would be expensive.

Now we're in a position where Sunshine is quite an ideal location, it got expanded in capacity after RRL. As well as the Metro Tunnel providing a dedicated route for the Sunbury line. It's made the Airport train idea via Sunshine somewhat more ideal than it once was. With the Federal government funding the bulk of the works it now has funds as well to commit to the idea.

The Airport train line is unlikely going to affect the Citylink revenue at all, here is why, it also funnels traffic from the Calder Freeway, not just the Tullamarine freeway. Also Transurban also will have West Gate tunnel which would help the Citylink have more patronage.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Some interesting facts around the impact of Transurban contracts with the government and the Melbourne Airport Rail Line.



If this is to be believed and it is from PTUA then could this be the reason the government has been dragging its heals on the airport link?
bevans
The Melbourne Airport line is many time more expensive than Brisbane, Sydney and Perth put together. The later two added new stations to the network not part of the airport and in the case of Sydney helped resolve congestion. Melbourne's project needed to resolve numerous other issues juts make the line practical.

Don't believe the BS.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Some interesting facts around the impact of Transurban contracts with the government and the Melbourne Airport Rail Line.

If this is to be believed and it is from PTUA then could this be the reason the government has been dragging its heals on the airport link?

Answer is no, the lack of advocacy for the airport train line had nothing to do with Transurban contracts.

The actual answer is lacking of funding and commitment to the idea, it was either seen way too expensive, or not economically feasible or practical. No state government really disagreed on the need of an Airport train line, it was just when was the right time to build one.

Building the Airport line always was a technical challenge, due to the nature of being a spur off a busy main line (Broadmeadows/Sunshine), which really didn't help, or any dedicated full line to the city would be expensive.

Now we're in a position where Sunshine is quite an ideal location, it got expanded in capacity after RRL. As well as the Metro Tunnel providing a dedicated route for the Sunbury line. It's made the Airport train idea via Sunshine somewhat more ideal than it once was. With the Federal government funding the bulk of the works it now has funds as well to commit to the idea.

The Airport train line is unlikely going to affect the Citylink revenue at all, here is why, it also funnels traffic from the Calder Freeway, not just the Tullamarine freeway. Also Transurban also will have West Gate tunnel which would help the Citylink have more patronage.
True Believers

I agree with you in part.

If the Airport Line was going to build along a new alignment south of Sunshine, I totally agree this would be a technically challenging project. But as it is mainly using the existing corridor up to Airport West and new elevated or at grade from there to the airport, the project becomes a relatively simple one, save the bridge across the M80.


Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Same reason as most locations - because going under is either too expensive, or a crap option engineering-wise.

But also, living near Skyrail myself, the "uproar" elsewhere has turned out to be about 20-30% actual locals complaining and the other 70-80% David Davis / Herald Sun astroturf.  These plans were public knowledge months ago, and the Herald Sun only drums up a story now?
Adogs
Normally I would agree with you, but seriously, why do you need a 50 metre high skyrail for 6 trains an hour? If the Melbourne Metro has high capacity signaling, surely it can share the same tracks until it turns off at Albion.

It seems to me that the State Government is adding unnecessary complexity, as the MARL will share track with MM1 until Sunshine. All this BS just to bypass one station?


Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Some interesting facts around the impact of Transurban contracts with the government and the Melbourne Airport Rail Line.



If this is to be believed and it is from PTUA then could this be the reason the government has been dragging its heals on the airport link?
The Melbourne Airport line is many time more expensive than Brisbane, Sydney and Perth put together. The later two added new stations to the network not part of the airport and in the case of Sydney helped resolve congestion. Melbourne's project needed to resolve numerous other issues juts make the line practical.

Don't believe the BS.
RTT_Rules
Totally agree. The Airport line would never be justified if it was just a standalone project. It either was going to be a branch of Melbourne Metro or a diversion of V/Line services. The City Tunnel or an Underground link through Highpoint were non starters.


Michael
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Lots of talk already on last nights budget and Victoria has not got money locked in unless they match.

Don’t forget the feds are providing a lot of cash for the airport line already announced.

The feds are providing Vic with funding but the Vic’s are so slow they don’t use it.
freightgate
The feds and the state have 'promised' money, nothing has been allocated. We don't even have a business case, scope of works are an estimated cost of the project.

I suspect that there is a lot of behind the scenes negation going on about what can be 'included' in Airport Rail to benefit the wider western rail network. Pre curser works for Melton, signalling upgrades, upgraded sunshine and Albion stations. You'd be amazed what other works could form part of MARL.

With the state budget coming tomorrow, expect some final plans to surface shortly.

Lockie
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Normally I would agree with you, but seriously, why do you need a 50 metre high skyrail for 6 trains an hour? If the Melbourne Metro has high capacity signaling, surely it can share the same tracks until it turns off at Albion.
mejhammers1

Because you can't close the ARTC SG lines for too long, and they won't want them to interface. The bridge keeps things more simple from that pov.
  8502 Junior Train Controller

Normally I would agree with you, but seriously, why do you need a 50 metre high skyrail for 6 trains an hour? If the Melbourne Metro has high capacity signaling, surely it can share the same tracks until it turns off at Albion.

Because you can't close the ARTC SG lines for too long, and they won't want them to interface. The bridge keeps things more simple from that pov.
John.Z

Can the problem be solved with a short tunnel under the Albion area coming in from Sunshine on the southern side and diving under the tracks and emerging on the western side of the BG lines to the north?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner


Can the problem be solved with a short tunnel under the Albion area coming in from Sunshine on the southern side and diving under the tracks and emerging on the western side of the BG lines to the north?
8502
Unless that tunnel uses TBMs, it will cause disruption as you have to relay tracks. A bridge pier can be done without closing tracks. Also not sure a tunnel would be easy to put in, depending on how the Ballarat rd bridge was built in the 60s, foundation could be questionable if digging underneath.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??

Can the problem be solved with a short tunnel under the Albion area coming in from Sunshine on the southern side and diving under the tracks and emerging on the western side of the BG lines to the north?
8502


Unless that tunnel uses TBMs, it will cause disruption as you have to relay tracks. A bridge pier can be done without closing tracks. Also not sure a tunnel would be easy to put in, depending on how the Ballarat rd bridge was built in the 60s, foundation could be questionable if digging underneath.
John.Z
Undermining foundations notwithstanding.

The short tunnel was in an early edition of the Albion route. For a 1km tunnel it's not worth the very expensive setup. That idea drpped off the diagrams a couple of years ago.

In order of increasing cost, the choices by huge margin are bridge/skyrail, trench, then tunnel.

Tunnel really only comes into its own,
when a long stretch to get some economy of scale AND there are other adverse factors ruling out the alternatives.

Eg Swanston St is NOT a trench,  because the far more expensive tunnel/caverns built
avoided cutting the CBD in half for 5+ years and destroying Melbourne's reputation as a livable city.

cheers
John
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Normally I would agree with you, but seriously, why do you need a 50 metre high skyrail for 6 trains an hour? If the Melbourne Metro has high capacity signaling, surely it can share the same tracks until it turns off at Albion.

Because you can't close the ARTC SG lines for too long, and they won't want them to interface. The bridge keeps things more simple from that pov.
John.Z
Between Sunshine and the Albion Junction, airport trains will gradually rise to travel on new elevated twin tracks before descending and continuing at ground level alongside the existing freight line through Sunshine and Airport West towards the airport.

The broad gauge does not Interface with the ARTC Standard Gauge, except to access the McIntyre Sidings. As there is probably very little in the way of BG Freight in that corridor, could it possibly be removed? Or work with the ARTC to change the single Standard Gauge to Double Track Dual Gauge and the existing BG which is in really crud condition, rehabilitated and duplicated for the Airport services.

Also the ARTC lines are part of the Inland Rail Corridor. The ARTC is bound to close it at some stage to bring the track up to standard.

So, it seems to me, to be a waste of money and overengineering to build a 50 metre high skyrail just to avoid Albion Station.



Michael
  Tii Junior Train Controller

Lots of talk already on last nights budget and Victoria has not got money locked in unless they match.

Don’t forget the feds are providing a lot of cash for the airport line already announced.

The feds are providing Vic with funding but the Vic’s are so slow they don’t use it.
The feds and the state have 'promised' money, nothing has been allocated. We don't even have a business case, scope of works are an estimated cost of the project.

I suspect that there is a lot of behind the scenes negation going on about what can be 'included' in Airport Rail to benefit the wider western rail network. Pre curser works for Melton, signalling upgrades, upgraded sunshine and Albion stations. You'd be amazed what other works could form part of MARL.

With the state budget coming tomorrow, expect some final plans to surface shortly.

Lockie
Lockie91
Let's hope so tomorrow.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
So, it seems to me, to be a waste of money and overengineering to build a 50 metre high skyrail just to avoid Albion Station.

Michael
mejhammers1
I wouldnt get so het up. 50m is an obvious error by some work experience spin doctor.

It just needs to get over Ballarat Rd, which is about 8m above Albion Station. +5 to clear the traffic

Even those silly flag poles aren't going to rise 10 stories high.

cheers
John
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The BG tracks themselves might not interact with the SG, but any underpass or at-grade crossing would require reconstruction of the SG track.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

So, it seems to me, to be a waste of money and overengineering to build a 50 metre high skyrail just to avoid Albion Station.

Michael
I wouldnt get so het up. 50m is an obvious error by some work experience spin doctor.

It just needs to get over Ballarat Rd, which is about 8m above Albion Station. +5 to clear the traffic

Even those silly flag poles aren't going to rise 10 stories high.

cheers
John
justarider
My bad, should be 50 feet. Even so that is unnecessary over engineering just to avoid Albion Station. I mean could the Vic Government come to an agreement with the ARTC and duplicate the existing SG and convert it to dual gauge whilst Vic Track duplicates and rehabilitates the existing BG?


Michael
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
My bad, should be 50 feet. Even so that is unnecessary over engineering just to avoid Albion Station. I mean could the Vic Government come to an agreement with the ARTC and duplicate the existing SG and convert it to dual gauge whilst Vic Track duplicates and rehabilitates the existing BG?


Michael
mejhammers1
Not your bad at all. The presser did say 50 metres, although the accompaning picture showed otherwise.

I agree that work is requried on the SG. Been pushing that barrow for years.
2 SG/DG tracks on the northern side of the corridor Tottenham to Macintyre to take all the freight lines away from any crossing of Metro/Airport.

Even so, the Airport line needs to go flying at some point, to prevent a flat junction between what will be fairly busy Sunbury/Airport.
The wider curve/higher speed, the better.

cheers
John
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
EoI called for Sunshine / Albion works, so things are starting to move

EoI

Neil
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
EoI called for Sunshine / Albion works, so things are starting to move
"ngarner"
 . . . at the customary glacial speed. I have been listening to talk about this line for at least a quarter of a century. Things will start to move when holes start to be dug.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Marcus Wong has put up some of the MARL scope documentation on his Twitter feed:



Worth a look as it contains more detailed information than I've seen, other than the Sunshine station works, released earlier in the year

Neil

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