The corona virus COVID-19

 
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Vaccination is like wearing a seat belt in the car. There are very odd occasions when you're better off being thrown out before the car is totally crushed . . . very, very odd occasions.
Sensible people play the percentages and wear seat belts. Ditto with vaccinations.
Valvegear
+1

But unlike seatbelts which only protect the wearer, Vaccines have the potential to save the 10,000 other people you may be personally responsible for killing, if you pass on your deadly infection.

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  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
1. "Qantas is the worst offender"

2. Qantas is normally profitable, its called a "Global Pandemic", worth a read and stupid Premiers over reacting to at no notice thus making it impossible for people to reliability and confidently book air travel. So remove the stupidity and Qantas and other airlines will again operate profitability.

Once again, Australian Law prevents Qantas, not other airlines being fully off the leash. So with that noose comes a cost.
RTT_Rules
Yeah but as I think I've been arguing for a very long time on this thread, the ultimate underlying cost of controlling the virus needs to be borne by the private sector, it can't be entirely borne by the public. The government just makes the rules, they can't compensate everyone and anyone affected into eternity just because this thing is dragging on longer than expected.

I feel for all the tourism operators going broke all around the nation at the moment because there's no international tourism but the Aussie taxpayer can't pick up the tab to sustain your operations while we figure out how long this thing is going to go for.

Ditto for airlines.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

You think $5000 for two weeks in a hotel for a family of four is normal?
RTT_Rules

I think we're getting to the nub of the issue.

You want the personal financial benefits of working off-shore, fair enough.  But then the rest of us have to put our economy, way of life and thousands of people's live at risk, because you don't want to pay $5000.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
A female friend my age 57, had the Pfizer just over two weeks ago, had been totally unwell for those two weeks, extremely painful legs aches and pains generally feeling that unwell she almost went back to the hozzie, has only come good today, she is generally healthy, I'm not.

Really having second and third thoughts now, the fam keep telling me don't do it.

(,,..,.,. "" '' ;; use these just in case.)
doyle
Family member in Ballarat had the same reaction to AZ - very painful arms and legs, couldn't move properly for a few days, same sort of thing as Eric Clapton was reporting. She had such a bad experience that she's thinking about refusing the second dose.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Interesting article from the British Telegraph newspaper (paywall) about the strategies employed by the UK government in order to get compliance from the public on COVID19 last year:

Scientists on a committee that encouraged the use of fear to control people’s behaviour during the Covid pandemic have admitted its work was “unethical” and “totalitarian”.

Members of the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Behaviour (SPI-B) expressed regret about the tactics in a new book about the role of psychology in the Government’s Covid-19 response.

SPI-B warned in March last year that ministers needed to increase “the perceived level of personal threat” from Covid-19 because “a substantial number of people still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened”.

Gavin Morgan, a psychologist on the team, said: “Clearly, using fear as a means of control is not ethical. Using fear smacks of totalitarianism. It’s not an ethical stance for any modern government. By nature I am an optimistic person, but all this has given me a more pessimistic view of people.”

I think we all knew that there was a substantial amount of official fear-mongering going on regarding the virus though didn't we.
  SAR520SMBH Train Controller

A female friend my age 57, had the Pfizer just over two weeks ago, had been totally unwell for those two weeks, extremely painful legs aches and pains generally feeling that unwell she almost went back to the hozzie, has only come good today, she is generally healthy, I'm not.

Really having second and third thoughts now, the fam keep telling me don't do it.

(,,..,.,. "" '' ;; use these just in case.)
Family member in Ballarat had the same reaction to AZ - very painful arms and legs, couldn't move properly for a few days, same sort of thing as Eric Clapton was reporting. She had such a bad experience that she's thinking about refusing the second dose.
don_dunstan

My Mum had a very similar reaction to the AZ vaccine, except the reactions didn't kick in until 2 full days after the injection and lasted for nearly a week.
She said that she won't hesitate to get the second injection and is booked in for early June.
Mum's partner had his AZ injection straight after Mum and experienced absolutely nothing, didn't even feel the needle going in.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
1. "Qantas is the worst offender"

2. Qantas is normally profitable, its called a "Global Pandemic", worth a read and stupid Premiers over reacting to at no notice thus making it impossible for people to reliability and confidently book air travel. So remove the stupidity and Qantas and other airlines will again operate profitability.

Once again, Australian Law prevents Qantas, not other airlines being fully off the leash. So with that noose comes a cost.
Yeah but as I think I've been arguing for a very long time on this thread, the ultimate underlying cost of controlling the virus needs to be borne by the private sector, it can't be entirely borne by the public. The government just makes the rules, they can't compensate everyone and anyone affected into eternity just because this thing is dragging on longer than expected.

I feel for all the tourism operators going broke all around the nation at the moment because there's no international tourism but the Aussie taxpayer can't pick up the tab to sustain your operations while we figure out how long this thing is going to go for.

Ditto for airlines.
don_dunstan
The govt is not funding the airlines, the govt (taxpayer) is ensuring that a core component of Qantas, the nations largest and most profitable airline and still operating under the thumb of the govt remains a viable entity to ensure business, tourism and family reunions can continue.

Qantas has downsized its workforce which is an acknowledgement that the airline has to reduce the size of its operations for a few years to come.

The govt props up other industries when they are in need, including the former car industry. However unlike the car industry the airline industry will return to self sufficient.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
You think $5000 for two weeks in a hotel for a family of four is normal?

I think we're getting to the nub of the issue.

You want the personal financial benefits of working off-shore, fair enough.  But then the rest of us have to put our economy, way of life and thousands of people's live at risk, because you don't want to pay $5000.
djf01
Who said we re getting personal financial benefits for working off-shore? Please stick with what you know and don't make adhoc assumptions. The "rest of us" you are referring to have access to welfare and other govt services, expats do not.

Who said the economy would suffer? Have you seed the Dow Jones, housing prices in the US and much of the developed and emerging world?

No one said we don't want to pay $5000, again you are making $hit up and stating as if a fact.

No one said thousands of lives should be placed at risk. Once again you are making stuff up and stating as fact.

So no, you were not getting to the nub of the issue, only diverting from what you know is the most sensible pathway forward.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
A female friend my age 57, had the Pfizer just over two weeks ago, had been totally unwell for those two weeks, extremely painful legs aches and pains generally feeling that unwell she almost went back to the hozzie, has only come good today, she is generally healthy, I'm not.

Really having second and third thoughts now, the fam keep telling me don't do it.

(,,..,.,. "" '' ;; use these just in case.)
Family member in Ballarat had the same reaction to AZ - very painful arms and legs, couldn't move properly for a few days, same sort of thing as Eric Clapton was reporting. She had such a bad experience that she's thinking about refusing the second dose.
don_dunstan
Fine, don't get the 2nd dose, more for others.

Yes, AZ can have a kick to it. A number of people here I know who got AZ said the day after was a bit "ordinary", but generally fine after that.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
A female friend my age 57, had the Pfizer just over two weeks ago, had been totally unwell for those two weeks, extremely painful legs aches and pains generally feeling that unwell she almost went back to the hozzie, has only come good today, she is generally healthy, I'm not.

Really having second and third thoughts now, the fam keep telling me don't do it.

(,,..,.,. "" '' ;; use these just in case.)
Family member in Ballarat had the same reaction to AZ - very painful arms and legs, couldn't move properly for a few days, same sort of thing as Eric Clapton was reporting. She had such a bad experience that she's thinking about refusing the second dose.

My Mum had a very similar reaction to the AZ vaccine, except the reactions didn't kick in until 2 full days after the injection and lasted for nearly a week.
She said that she won't hesitate to get the second injection and is booked in for early June.
Mum's partner had his AZ injection straight after Mum and experienced absolutely nothing, didn't even feel the needle going in.
SAR520SMBH
If you feel the needle going in, they are doing it wrong.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Interesting article from the British Telegraph newspaper (paywall) about the strategies employed by the UK government in order to get compliance from the public on COVID19 last year:

Scientists on a committee that encouraged the use of fear to control people’s behaviour during the Covid pandemic have admitted its work was “unethical” and “totalitarian”.

Members of the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Behaviour (SPI-B) expressed regret about the tactics in a new book about the role of psychology in the Government’s Covid-19 response.

SPI-B warned in March last year that ministers needed to increase “the perceived level of personal threat” from Covid-19 because “a substantial number of people still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened”.

Gavin Morgan, a psychologist on the team, said: “Clearly, using fear as a means of control is not ethical. Using fear smacks of totalitarianism. It’s not an ethical stance for any modern government. By nature I am an optimistic person, but all this has given me a more pessimistic view of people.”

I think we all knew that there was a substantial amount of official fear-mongering going on regarding the virus though didn't we.
don_dunstan
Australia is leading the world of induced population paranoia about CV-19. What happens when you are used to applying too much bubble wrap.
  SAR520SMBH Train Controller

A female friend my age 57, had the Pfizer just over two weeks ago, had been totally unwell for those two weeks, extremely painful legs aches and pains generally feeling that unwell she almost went back to the hozzie, has only come good today, she is generally healthy, I'm not.

Really having second and third thoughts now, the fam keep telling me don't do it.

(,,..,.,. "" '' ;; use these just in case.)
Family member in Ballarat had the same reaction to AZ - very painful arms and legs, couldn't move properly for a few days, same sort of thing as Eric Clapton was reporting. She had such a bad experience that she's thinking about refusing the second dose.

My Mum had a very similar reaction to the AZ vaccine, except the reactions didn't kick in until 2 full days after the injection and lasted for nearly a week.
She said that she won't hesitate to get the second injection and is booked in for early June.
Mum's partner had his AZ injection straight after Mum and experienced absolutely nothing, didn't even feel the needle going in.
If you feel the needle going in, they are doing it wrong.
RTT_Rules

Thanks Dr. Shane.

Come to think of it, as far as my memory goes back at least, every single needle I've had, I've felt going in.
Tetanus, flu, even the nerve blocker they injected into my left arm before the operation I had to fix my broken ulnar after a car accident.

I'll be sure to remind the doctor or nurse that they're doing it wrong when my turn comes for the Covid vaccine......because you said so!
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
If you get an intramuscular injection in a deltoid muscle and don't feel it, they're doing something wrong.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
Interesting article from the British Telegraph newspaper (paywall) about the strategies employed by the UK government in order to get compliance from the public on COVID19 last year:

Scientists on a committee that encouraged the use of fear to control people’s behaviour during the Covid pandemic have admitted its work was “unethical” and “totalitarian”.

Members of the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Behaviour (SPI-B) expressed regret about the tactics in a new book about the role of psychology in the Government’s Covid-19 response.

SPI-B warned in March last year that ministers needed to increase “the perceived level of personal threat” from Covid-19 because “a substantial number of people still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened”.

Gavin Morgan, a psychologist on the team, said: “Clearly, using fear as a means of control is not ethical. Using fear smacks of totalitarianism. It’s not an ethical stance for any modern government. By nature I am an optimistic person, but all this has given me a more pessimistic view of people.”

I think we all knew that there was a substantial amount of official fear-mongering going on regarding the virus though didn't we.
don_dunstan
Yes there probably was a bit of fear and alarmism to begin with, but that's because we did not know what we were dealing with, I note that the far right side of politics didn't help either, they more or less simply brushed off the virus as if it didn't exist, this added to the fear and alarmism felt by people.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If you feel the needle going in, they are doing it wrong.

Thanks Dr. Shane.

Come to think of it, as far as my memory goes back at least, every single needle I've had, I've felt going in.
Tetanus, flu, even the nerve blocker they injected into my left arm before the operation I had to fix my broken ulnar after a car accident.

I'll be sure to remind the doctor or nurse that they're doing it wrong when my turn comes for the Covid vaccine......because you said so!
SAR520SMBH
I'm referring the CV-19 Vax, for which myself and almost every adult I know and work with has also had and also said the same thing.

The needle is tiny, neither long nor wide in comparison to almost every other injection they have had.

As a long-term blood donor, I know when the nurse is doing it wrong and the nurse also knows the donor knows and told me as such.

As for Dr's giving needles, yeah well, in their 6 years of medical school, they obviously don't have the same training as a nurse as most Dr's that have injected me have always let you know they have given you a needle.
  Upven Junior Train Controller


I don't think I failed at all.  I thought the tissues line might have been a bit much, but you actually recognised my sarcasm, which really is a good start.  Here is another example for you to try ...

I'm only aware of one case where a HQ guest paid for the associated security "services" directly.

As for hiding under the bed, shouldn't that be on the C--- (self censored to preserve my social credit score) Problem thread?

I'll turn the sarcasm off for a moment:

Israel: 6000 Deaths (On Again: An acceptable number, as none of them were ever the CEO of Virgin)
Cases: 800,000  (Very good survival rate)
3 national lockdowns lasting months, not days.

Apart from all the extra months in lock-down, that's a pretty good result by world standards

But Israel are world leaders in vaccination, and vaccination with mRNA.  I don't know why - whether it was good fortune (they got to the head of the queue for the American Vaccines) or good management (they could have done just as well with AZ or a Chinese Vacc had they proved most efficacious in trials) I don't know.

But I do think the Israeli experiment will tell us over the next 6  to 12 months whether mass vaccination with mRNA vaccines delivers the policy outcomes most hope/expect.

Trying to make a long (or even medium) term decision on international borders now is - IMHO - absurd.  The idea we can have a manageable number of deaths is also absurd, no-one in the world has sustained that (except for Australia of course - IIRC we've had more deaths from Vacc than COVID edit: this year).  Vaccines might achieve this, but it's all theory, optimism and conjecture, with as much supporting data as a deranged Railpage thread.

Edit: That was a really really dumb statement on my part.

The point I was trying to make was not vaccines are dangerous, rather that 0 is the only manageable/sustainable level of Covid.You think $5000 for two weeks in a hotel for a family of four is normal? the hotels don't need to do any work in the room until the guest leaves. No room service, food is disposable. All normal guest activities such as gym or pool not used, nothing to clean up, even the corridors are lightly used. I just spent 7 nights in a resort in the Maldives island of 150 rooms, all inclusive including activities and paid less than $5000.

Alot harder to prevent transmission when you have a land border and high density living.

Israel got in first and put the big bucks on the table. They paid around $150 per shot.

The results are already obvious with hospitalizations declining with the older generation first as per the roll out. We are now seeing similar benefits here and most of us have Sinopharm as we have around 60% double jabbed.

NZ and other island nations are the same.

While Australia did the right thing for about a year, its now drifted into the world of the paranoid.

Jab the +60's, then once done and I think most are, start opening up in a controlled manner i.e. allow people with WHO endorsed vaccines, or certified recent infection to enter the country with PCR at departure and arrival without HQ.

Oh, FYi Australia just announced that those OS jabbed with AZ or Pfizer can register their jabs on Australian website. Those who got others despite being approved by WHO and having similar benefit as AZ with a lower side effect rating cannot. Where is this all heading? Who knows but the obvious answer being that likely Australia will discriminate based on which vaccine you got.  Based on the evidence presented to WHO this is playing vaccine politics.
RTT_Rules
Comparing the costs between a nation with the highest or second highest minimum wage against the Maldives is a bit rich, and as proven earlier in this thread: the overwhelming majority of Australians are fine with the border being closed.

Borders will remain closed until they're politically unpopular it's just that simple.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The govt is not funding the airlines, the govt (taxpayer) is ensuring that a core component of Qantas, the nations largest and most profitable airline and still operating under the thumb of the govt remains a viable entity to ensure business, tourism and family reunions can continue.

Qantas has downsized its workforce which is an acknowledgement that the airline has to reduce the size of its operations for a few years to come.

The govt props up other industries when they are in need, including the former car industry. However unlike the car industry the airline industry will return to self sufficient.
RTT_Rules
None of this is correct.

Qantas has received more than $1.2 billion directly from the Commonwealth and state governments since the start of the pandemic last year. So what you said there was just plain wrong.

If the government needed to keep essential air travel open they should have contracted their own flights - instead they used Qantas to keep paying the shareholders and the executives (and the staff). Fair enough but it's corporate welfare - please use the correct title for it... not "ensuring an essential business". When it comes down to it, domestic air travel is not an essential business in the same way that health or education is.

It really isn't the public's financial concern keeping airlines in sky - we abdicated all responsibility when we deregulated and privatised. Frankly I'm astonished that Frydenburg actually said 'no' to Virgin when they were already giving money to Qantas. As it happened Virgin managed to procure $20 million from the QLD government in the form of equity: Again, money down the drain, Virgin is already bleeding to death and its only been months since it was re-floated as a business - I think the QLD taxpayers can safely say 'bye bye' to that twenty million.

And don't kid yourself, once industries start getting corporate welfare from the government they'll always want more - wasn't that the lesson of the car industry you were alluding to there? There is no valid reason whatsoever as to why the government should be putting any more hard-earned taxpayer money into sustaining YET ANOTHER unprofitable business for no other reason than to prevent capitalism taking its course.

Australia is leading the world of induced population paranoia about CV-19. What happens when you are used to applying too much bubble wrap.
RTT_Rules
I have a close friend in London's suburbs who can't return to Australia, doesn't know when she will be able to return to Australia - and it's really upsetting her because she can't see family - nor can they see her.

Unfortunately that's the price you pay for moving overseas, international travel has been hopelessly complicated by this thing. And its a very, very popular policy out here in the antipodes - the public by and large have decided that's what they want.

I personally don't agree with it - I'm more with you in the sense that we should have probably pursued a Swedish solution to managing it - but I don't have any say over public opinion and locked international borders is the policy for at least another 12 months, full-stop.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
The govt is not funding the airlines, the govt (taxpayer) is ensuring that a core component of Qantas, the nations largest and most profitable airline and still operating under the thumb of the govt remains a viable entity to ensure business, tourism and family reunions can continue.

Qantas has downsized its workforce which is an acknowledgement that the airline has to reduce the size of its operations for a few years to come.

The govt props up other industries when they are in need, including the former car industry. However unlike the car industry the airline industry will return to self sufficient.
None of this is correct.

Qantas has received more than $1.2 billion directly from the Commonwealth and state governments since the start of the pandemic last year. So what you said there was just plain wrong.

If the government needed to keep essential air travel open they should have contracted their own flights - instead they used Qantas to keep paying the shareholders and the executives (and the staff). Fair enough but it's corporate welfare - please use the correct title for it... not "ensuring an essential business". When it comes down to it, domestic air travel is not an essential business in the same way that health or education is.

It really isn't the public's financial concern keeping airlines in sky - we abdicated all responsibility when we deregulated and privatised. Frankly I'm astonished that Frydenburg actually said 'no' to Virgin when they were already giving money to Qantas. As it happened Virgin managed to procure $20 million from the QLD government in the form of equity: Again, money down the drain, Virgin is already bleeding to death and its only been months since it was re-floated as a business - I think the QLD taxpayers can safely say 'bye bye' to that twenty million.

And don't kid yourself, once industries start getting corporate welfare from the government they'll always want more - wasn't that the lesson of the car industry you were alluding to there? There is no valid reason whatsoever as to why the government should be putting any more hard-earned taxpayer money into sustaining YET ANOTHER unprofitable business for no other reason than to prevent capitalism taking its course.

Australia is leading the world of induced population paranoia about CV-19. What happens when you are used to applying too much bubble wrap.
I have a close friend in London's suburbs who can't return to Australia, doesn't know when she will be able to return to Australia - and it's really upsetting her because she can't see family - nor can they see her.

Unfortunately that's the price you pay for moving overseas, international travel has been hopelessly complicated by this thing. And its a very, very popular policy out here in the antipodes - the public by and large have decided that's what they want.

I personally don't agree with it - I'm more with you in the sense that we should have probably pursued a Swedish solution to managing it - but I don't have any say over public opinion and locked international borders is the policy for at least another 12 months, full-stop.
don_dunstan
So, this don't matter much now because we are passed it, but would you have been prepared to see hospitals full to the brim, because wherever COVID-19 has touched in a big way, that is what we have witnessed. I am not saying deaths so much, but the ICU Wards have been full to the brim in the countries in which COVID-19 has touched them in a big way.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
None of this is correct.

Qantas has received more than $1.2 billion directly from the Commonwealth and state governments since the start of the pandemic last year. So what you said there was just plain correct.
Don
Its all correct Don

Of course they got $1.2B, the states and Feds destroyed their business. Qantas could of happily survived without international and the short-term April lockdown, but the states made operating an airline impossible beyond June.

If the states want to be serviced by air transport beyond lockdowns, then they need to keep the airlines from going bankrupt.

If the government needed to keep essential air travel open they should have contracted their own flights - instead they used Qantas to keep paying the shareholders and the executives (and the staff). Fair enough but it's corporate welfare - please use the correct title for it... not "ensuring an essential business". When it comes down to it, domestic air travel is not an essential business in the same way that health or education is.
Don dribbled

Contracting to who Don?

Australia had interstate airlines, one went broke due to ongoing internal reasons so the ability to issue contracts was impossible. So they basically paid Qantas to keep air corridors open.

The govt didn't pay shareholders Don.

Even if you contract Don, the contracts are to pay staff.

It really isn't the public's financial concern keeping airlines in sky - we abdicated all responsibility when we deregulated and privatised. Frankly I'm astonished that Frydenburg actually said 'no' to Virgin when they were already giving money to Qantas. As it happened Virgin managed to procure $20 million from the QLD government in the form of equity: Again, money down the drain, Virgin is already bleeding to death and its only been months since it was re-floated as a business - I think the QLD taxpayers can safely say 'bye bye' to that twenty million.
Don again

Its very much in the pubic's concern to keep the airline business afloat during a period of govt induced lockdowns and border closures.

How many times do you need to be told Don, Qantas is under the Fed govt leash. Its called the Qantas Act,  worth a read.

If you are astonished why Fryenburg said "No" to Virgin, then you have been asleep at the wheel and should refrain from continuing to engaged on a topic you clearly know nothing about.

Obviously you need a history lesson on why the Qld govt paid Virgin to stay.

And don't kid yourself, once industries start getting corporate welfare from the government they'll always want more - wasn't that the lesson of the car industry you were alluding to there? There is no valid reason whatsoever as to why the government should be putting any more hard-earned taxpayer money into sustaining YET ANOTHER unprofitable business for no other reason than to prevent capitalism taking its course.
Don, more rubbish

Oh comon Don, this is getting pathetic.

Car industry was on drip feed for decades, even in the end the car industry made its own decision and told the govt thanks but no thanks it just doesn't make sense.

Domestic airline industry was stabbed in the guts by a short term issue, made worse by dumb attention seeking premiers. Qantas was profitable in the years prior to CV-19 and had there been no CV-19 would have been hit with Corporate tax in 2020.

I have a close friend in London's suburbs who can't return to Australia, doesn't know when she will be able to return to Australia - and it's really upsetting her because she can't see family - nor can they see her.
Don
Yeah, its called flight caps. Been nearly 12mths now with another 12mth to go. She's in a large club. We used our budget for travel to Australia in April last year to spend a week in the Maldives, I would strongly recommend she do the same and she will quickly forget about what she cannot control.

Unfortunately that's the price you pay for moving overseas, international travel has been hopelessly complicated by this thing. And its a very, very popular policy out here in the antipodes - the public by and large have decided that's what they want.
Don
the bubble wrap society doesn't know what it doesn't know. One day they will find out about the truth of Santa Claus and there will be tears.

I personally don't agree with it - I'm more with you in the sense that we should have probably pursued a Swedish solution to managing it - but I don't have any say over public opinion and locked international borders is the policy for at least another 12 months, full-stop.
Don

Don, please do not put me in the Sweden boat. That was the worlds biggest F-up and Sweden learnt and long painful lesson. I'd be surprised if that guy ever works again.

Border closures had their place, that time is passed and its time to start changing the rules based on the fact more Australian expats than Australian domestic citizens have been vaccinated and there are reliable systems that other countries use to enable less restrictive travel than 14 days in at times a $hitty hotel including the use self quarantine with trackers. The govt has kept it quiet, but there has been a number of people who have committed suicide in HQ, which is why now bags are searched for alcohol and all deliveries are searched for alcohol which is limited to a few drinks a day.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Its all correct Don

Of course they got $1.2B, the states and Feds destroyed their business.
RTT_Rules
No - they didn't destroy the Qantas business. COVID19 did.

It is not the responsibility of the Australian taxpayer to provide financial compensation to any and all businesses affected by the COVID19 situation - if we did that we'd be in twice the hole that we are now.

Please stop arguing on this point, RTT_Rules - you can't win. Jobkeeper is over, there should be no more corporate welfare for anyone at all - including the airlines. There's no compelling case for the Aussie taxpayer to keep bailing out these loss-making businesses just because COVID19 is dragging out longer than expected. None.

If post-COVID Australia can only sustain about half the number (or less) of domestic flights than it did before COVID then that's the new reality that we all have to adjust to including those private businesses. End of story.
The govt didn't pay shareholders Don.
RTT_Rules
Yes - they did. They contributed directly to Qantas and stopped it from having an even worse year than it already did.
How many times do you need to be told Don, Qantas is under the Fed govt leash. Its called the Qantas Act, worth a read. If you are astonished why Fryenburg said "No" to Virgin, then you have been asleep at the wheel and should refrain from continuing to engaged on a topic you clearly know nothing about. Obviously you need a history lesson on why the Qld govt paid Virgin to stay.
RTT_Rules
If you are a Qantas shareholder you really should have disclosed that fact some time back.

There is no such thing as the 'Qantas Act', try again. There's the Qantas Sale Act (1992) and the Qantas Sale Amendment Bill (2014) - but there is no "Qantas Act' proper. If you are implying that the Commonwealth is somehow involved in directly in ensuring that services are provided between capital cities then you need to cite the precise parts of the relevant act(s) that tell us where, when and why - otherwise there's no evidence for what you're saying.

Domestic airlines have been fully deregulated since the late 1990's and the Commonwealth has taken a completely hands-off approach allowing several airlines to go broke since then. Qantas might need to go broke and be restructured like Virgin did - but we'll never know now because Qantas got a direct bail-out. And there should definitely be no more more - it's been 14 months - we can't afford to dish out this corporate welfare forever.

You're getting personal because you can't win this argument and you know it.
Qantas was profitable in the years prior to CV-19 and had there been no CV-19 would have been hit with Corporate tax in 2020.
RTT_Rules
Again, it is not the responsibility of the Australian taxpayer to ensure Qantas is profitable - it hasn't been since 1995 when it was fully privatised.
Border closures had their place, that time is passed and its time to start changing the rules based on the fact more Australian expats than Australian domestic citizens have been vaccinated and there are reliable systems that other countries use to enable less restrictive travel than 14 days in at times a $hitty hotel including the use self quarantine with trackers. The govt has kept it quiet, but there has been a number of people who have committed suicide in HQ, which is why now bags are searched for alcohol and all deliveries are searched for alcohol which is limited to a few drinks a day.
RTT_Rules
As you said yourself you can't control it so get used to not being able to come here at will for at least another 12 months - regardless of what you or I think that's what the Aussie people want.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
the bubble wrap society doesn't know what it doesn't know. One day they will find out about the truth of Santa Claus and there will be tears.
RTT_Rules

What consequences? Apart from a lack of international tourists this place is humming along tickety-boo; unemployment almost below five percent (apparently), GDP back to normal.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Its all correct Don

Of course they got $1.2B, the states and Feds destroyed their business.
No - they didn't destroy the Qantas business. COVID19 did.

It is not the responsibility of the Australian taxpayer to provide financial compensation to any and all businesses affected by the COVID19 situation - if we did that we'd be in twice the hole that we are now.

Please stop arguing on this point, RTT_Rules - you can't win. Jobkeeper is over, there should be no more corporate welfare for anyone at all - including the airlines. There's no compelling case for the Aussie taxpayer to keep bailing out these loss-making businesses just because COVID19 is dragging out longer than expected. None.

If post-COVID Australia can only sustain about half the number (or less) of domestic flights than it did before COVID then that's the new reality that we all have to adjust to including those private businesses. End of story.
The govt didn't pay shareholders Don.
Yes - they did. They contributed directly to Qantas and stopped it from having an even worse year than it already did.
How many times do you need to be told Don, Qantas is under the Fed govt leash. Its called the Qantas Act, worth a read. If you are astonished why Fryenburg said "No" to Virgin, then you have been asleep at the wheel and should refrain from continuing to engaged on a topic you clearly know nothing about. Obviously you need a history lesson on why the Qld govt paid Virgin to stay.
If you are a Qantas shareholder you really should have disclosed that fact some time back.

There is no such thing as the 'Qantas Act', try again. There's the Qantas Sale Act (1992) and the Qantas Sale Amendment Bill (2014) - but there is no "Qantas Act' proper. If you are implying that the Commonwealth is somehow involved in directly in ensuring that services are provided between capital cities then you need to cite the precise parts of the relevant act(s) that tell us where, when and why - otherwise there's no evidence for what you're saying.

Domestic airlines have been fully deregulated since the late 1990's and the Commonwealth has taken a completely hands-off approach allowing several airlines to go broke since then. Qantas might need to go broke and be restructured like Virgin did - but we'll never know now because Qantas got a direct bail-out. And there should definitely be no more more - it's been 14 months - we can't afford to dish out this corporate welfare forever.

You're getting personal because you can't win this argument and you know it.
Qantas was profitable in the years prior to CV-19 and had there been no CV-19 would have been hit with Corporate tax in 2020.
Again, it is not the responsibility of the Australian taxpayer to ensure Qantas is profitable - it hasn't been since 1995 when it was fully privatised.
Border closures had their place, that time is passed and its time to start changing the rules based on the fact more Australian expats than Australian domestic citizens have been vaccinated and there are reliable systems that other countries use to enable less restrictive travel than 14 days in at times a $hitty hotel including the use self quarantine with trackers. The govt has kept it quiet, but there has been a number of people who have committed suicide in HQ, which is why now bags are searched for alcohol and all deliveries are searched for alcohol which is limited to a few drinks a day.
As you said yourself you can't control it so get used to not being able to come here at will for at least another 12 months - regardless of what you or I think that's what the Aussie people want.
don_dunstan
Actions by the govt following CV-19 did and excessive and ongoing and short notice state borders did.

One more time Don,
As proven by previous govt support of strategic industries on their knees for the benefit of the greater economy.

Yes Don, now that you have googled it, The Qantas Sale Act is what I was referring too, glad you have caught up. Now did you read it and conditions? Get back to us when you have.

Qantas was a viable business prior to CV having gone through a self induced major restructure nearly 10 years ago and during the CV-19 down time. Meanwhile Don, it was well known that prior to CV-19, Virgin, a 90% foreign airline was on its knees due to long-term mis-management, had not paid a dividend since 2008 and expected to got broke or require a major capital injection to pay off its debt which exceeded its assets that was no longer fundable by its operations. So yes Don, we do know.

Taxpayer support of Qantas will cease when state govts stop closing state borders as zero notice over every little thing. Meanwhile the Feds are funding Singapore airlines for nearly a year now to keep the corridor to Singapore open for freight and passenger requirements as such Singapore airlines is one of the few international airlines that charge normal EC fares, unlike Middle Eastern Airlines which charge BC and/or bump passengers if freight volumes are not sufficient to fund the flight.  

Not getting personal Don, but you are going round circles. Its clear you are clueless on this you have conveniently ignored responding to my comments that you know are correct and hence you are only picking on the dregs to try to see if you can save yourself, but failing.

Once again Don, the govt is funding the airline to keep air corridors open. It is NOT funding Qantas to be profitable.

Once again Don, while the govt controls and prevents part of Qantas's ability to seek external capital injection, then what options are there?

Should Qantas fail Don, the bulk of Australia would be without an air carrier. Again Don, the govt stepped in the past and replaced air services when the airlines stopped flying at significant cost to the taxpayer to ensure Australia wasn't pushed back to the first half of 20th century.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
the bubble wrap society doesn't know what it doesn't know. One day they will find out about the truth of Santa Claus and there will be tears.

What consequences? Apart from a lack of international tourists this place is humming along tickety-boo; unemployment almost below five percent (apparently), GDP back to normal.
don_dunstan
So are other country's that are not hiding under the bed.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

A female friend my age 57, had the Pfizer just over two weeks ago, had been totally unwell for those two weeks, extremely painful legs aches and pains generally feeling that unwell she almost went back to the hozzie, has only come good today, she is generally healthy, I'm not.

Really having second and third thoughts now, the fam keep telling me don't do it.

(,,..,.,. "" '' ;; use these just in case.)
You can walk across the bridge knowing there is a 1/1B chance of it collapsing, or you can swim.

She felt unwell, it happens. Life goes on.
RTT_Rules
I had my first dose of the Astra 4 plus weeks ago and have experienced no side effects. I am due to have the second dose early June and will not hesitate to have that dose. I think a lot of people are just plain sooks and moan at the slightest excuse. That is OK if they kept it to themselves but they hop on social media and spread their discontent to others that are feeble minded who in turn influence other feeble minded morons.

Social media is really a curse as it gives a voice to people whose opinions should be kept to the back fence.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
So are other country's that are not hiding under the bed.
"RTT_Rules"
Sigh - he'll never learn.

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