Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Marcus Wong has put up some of the MARL scope documentation on his Twitter feed:



Worth a look as it contains more detailed information than I've seen, other than the Sunshine station works, released earlier in the year

Neil
ngarner
thanks Neil, and ever reliable Marcus

no wonder its so difficult to uncover the track designs. Look like a kindergarden practice in how to draw with crayons.

Frankly, anybody that thinks designing new flat crossings at Sunshine (vline vs metro) is clever, needs to be taken out back and given a stern talking to.

Removing the Tottenham freight turn outs to the Sunbury mainline and RRL - very good.
Replaced by using the mainline turn outs within the station itself - absolute madness.
Presumably BG freight from Totts to Ballarat will go over the Brooklyn flyover, and thereafter ?????

There are better, and no more expensive solutions. Time for a RP design competition, winner gets the rights to "I told you so.."

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  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out

Removing the Tottenham freight turn outs to the Sunbury mainline and RRL - very good.
Replaced by using the mainline turn outs within the station itself - absolute madness.
Presumably BG freight from Totts to Ballarat will go over the Brooklyn flyover, and thereafter ?????

There are better, and no more expensive solutions. Time for a RP design competition, winner gets the rights to "I told you so.."
justarider
V/line likes to route any freight that goes through Ballarat via Geelong anyway.

Anywho, dual gauge the section on the freight line between the Totty Triangle and Albion and you can solve a lot of problems.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
This is a great article on the passenger catchment opportunities for the melbourne airport rail line https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/melbourne-airport-rail-a-patronage-discussion
  GaryAblett5 Beginner

This airport rail link feels like a cheaper project than the $10 billion dollar price tag. There is nothing spectacular about it.
  Tii Junior Train Controller

This airport rail link feels like a cheaper project than the $10 billion dollar price tag. There is nothing spectacular about it.
GaryAblett5
Hard to know without the detail plan yet to be released. It does seem pricey for $10 bill, so I hope it's more than just a line to the airport and might include extra stations and an extra electrified run all the way from Sunshine to Broady at least to make a sort of multi part ring service prior to the SRL connection bit in decades to come, albeit with interchanges to get from WV to Broady, via Sunshine. I'm frothing I know, but we live in hope a bit of forward planning might be nice. Hey run a Sprinter from Broady to Sunshine to Newport, if that's all that's available and join those lines up.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Is there any plans been released on where and what the proposed railway does within the Airport Terminal percent, the Information Is very light on.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I'm frothing I know, but we live in hope a bit of forward planning might be nice.
Tii
Why "forward" planning? What other sort of planning could there be?


Is there any plans been released on where and what the proposed railway does within the Airport Terminal percent, the Information Is very light on.
Nightfire
There is nothing unusual about that. This whole idea has been nothing but humungous amounts of hot air and BS for decades.  I'm watching a marathon race between a three-toed sloth and a Galapagos tortoise, because it will finish before any airport railway line has had even one ceremonial spadeful of earth moved.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

This airport rail link feels like a cheaper project than the $10 billion dollar price tag. There is nothing spectacular about it.
GaryAblett5
That's because it is. The Airport line has been massively descoped. So unless someone is getting massive massive bonuses, the Airport line should not even cost 1/2 of the $10 Billion price tag.


Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I'm frothing I know, but we live in hope a bit of forward planning might be nice.
Why "forward" planning? What other sort of planning could there be?


Is there any plans been released on where and what the proposed railway does within the Airport Terminal percent, the Information Is very light on.
There is nothing unusual about that. This whole idea has been nothing but humungous amounts of hot air and BS for decades.  I'm watching a marathon race between a three-toed sloth and a Galapagos tortoise, because it will finish before any airport railway line has had even one ceremonial spadeful of earth moved.
Valvegear
Totally agree. Please tell me that the $10 Billion price tag includes works for the Western Rail Plan because if it solely for what is effectively a branch of Melbourne Metro, then it makes absolutely no sense at all.

I would rather spend $4 Billion on upgrading the Bus network and $6 Billion on making sure that the entire tram network is fully accessible. Seeing crappy old Z and A class trams that should be sardine tins is an absolute joke and a slight on Public Transport in this state. That would benefit far more of the population than an over engineered Airport line.

If I up to me it would just be a V/Line stop on the way to Bendigo, Shepparton, Seymour, Albury and the Sydney XPT services, together with 3 trains an hour terminating serviced by thoroughly refurbished V/Line sprinters. Or an extension of tram route 59 and that tram route having stops removed with some re-routing to speed up operation. Cheap and cheerful is the way I would go.

7 years to build a branch of MM1. Who are they kidding?


Michael
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

The $10billion is the allocation, not the cost. The high allocation would be because Malcolm Turnbull wanted it to tunnel under Marybynong and Highpoint. The State Government under lobbying from regional mayors preferred the cheaper Sunshine alignment but didn't suggest reducing the allocation. The tenders are in small enough bites that they should attract a good range of competitive quotes, and the total price is likely to come in well under the $10 billion. For comparison the Perth Airport line is almost entirely underground and has a budget of $2 billion. The likely scenario is that toward the end of the project there would be discussion between the State and Federal Governments about what to do with the remaining allocation. In the Regional Rail Link there was sufficient left over to fund grade separations at St Albans and Ginifer from the State half of the funds, and a rural freeway near Ararat from the Federal half of the funds.

The proposed route within Melbourne Airport is shown in their strategic plan on page 86 here:
https://www.melbourneairport.com.au/Corporate/Planning-projects/Master-plan#
The median of Airport Drive is extra wide to accommodate an elevated rail line. The railway station will be adjacent to Terminals 2 and 3. It will be cut-and-cover underground so the line could potentially be extended undergound to another terminal on the western side of the runways, where it could connect with a high speed rail terminal.

High speed rail connections into the centres of major cities are politically and economically difficult and usually solved by expensive long tunnels. Even new rail lines through the hobby farm belt carry a political cost. The Airport Authority may realise that the least-cost route through the hobby farm belt is along the flight path where land values are reduced through aircraft noise, and colocate the new station with the new airport terminal.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

The $10billion is the allocation, not the cost. The high allocation would be because Malcolm Turnbull wanted it to tunnel under Marybynong and Highpoint. The State Government under lobbying from regional mayors preferred the cheaper Sunshine alignment but didn't suggest reducing the allocation. The tenders are in small enough bites that they should attract a good range of competitive quotes, and the total price is likely to come in well under the $10 billion. For comparison the Perth Airport line is almost entirely underground and has a budget of $2 billion. The likely scenario is that toward the end of the project there would be discussion between the State and Federal Governments about what to do with the remaining allocation. In the Regional Rail Link there was sufficient left over to fund grade separations at St Albans and Ginifer from the State half of the funds, and a rural freeway near Ararat from the Federal half of the funds.

The proposed route within Melbourne Airport is shown in their strategic plan on page 86 here:
https://www.melbourneairport.com.au/Corporate/Planning-projects/Master-plan#
The median of Airport Drive is extra wide to accommodate an elevated rail line. The railway station will be adjacent to Terminals 2 and 3. It will be cut-and-cover underground so the line could potentially be extended undergound to another terminal on the western side of the runways, where it could connect with a high speed rail terminal.

High speed rail connections into the centres of major cities are politically and economically difficult and usually solved by expensive long tunnels. Even new rail lines through the hobby farm belt carry a political cost. The Airport Authority may realise that the least-cost route through the hobby farm belt is along the flight path where land values are reduced through aircraft noise, and colocate the new station with the new airport terminal.
mm42
The $10billion is the allocation, not the cost. The high allocation would be because Malcolm Turnbull wanted it to tunnel under Marybynong and Highpoint.

Ridiculous idea. Glad they binned that one.

For comparison the Perth Airport line is almost entirely underground and has a budget of $2 billion.

We could complete the Airport here for about 2.5 to 3 Billion if we  -

         refurbed and double track the broad gauge freight from Albion
         double tracked and dual gauged the existing standard gauge freight.
         re-route the Bendigo line trains through the Airport and Clarkefield.
         re-route the Seymour and Shepparton trains through the airport.
         Don't electrify and use surplus Sprinters, heavy refurbished for terminating services.

Much, much cheaper.

In the Regional Rail Link there was sufficient left over to fund grade separations at St Albans and Ginifer from the State half of the funds, and a rural freeway near Ararat from the Federal half of the funds.

Yeah that was done after the Coalition Government had descoped the RRL.

The median of Airport Drive is extra wide to accommodate an elevated rail line. The railway station will be adjacent to Terminals 2 and 3. It will be cut-and-cover underground

That's good. I hope it is cut and cover to reduce costs. The Airport line should be as cheap as possible.

where it could connect with a high speed rail terminal.

That is a David Davis fever dream. Forget spending loads of money on high speed to the airport. A complete waste of money.

And instead of having just two local bus routes running buses every 30 mins until 8pm why not also extend the tram route 59 from Airport West for the locals.

Michael
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

We could complete the Airport here for about 2.5 to 3 Billion if we  -

         refurbed and double track the broad gauge freight from Albion
         double tracked and dual gauged the existing standard gauge freight.
         re-route the Bendigo line trains through the Airport and Clarkefield.
         re-route the Seymour and Shepparton trains through the airport.
         Don't electrify and use surplus Sprinters, heavy refurbished for terminating services.

Michael
mejhammers1

I've come around to Seymour and Shep not needing to go via Airport, instead those people can change at Sunshine. It makes the track work even more simple and cheap if only Bendigo trains go via airport to Clarkfield, and Seymour trains go along the existing Jacana railway.

In my pipe dreams, capacity on the RRL for extra Airport services would be freed up by Geelong to Airport VLine services running via Metro 2, but in the meantime (which will be a while, if not forever) you have to take the paths from Metro 1, RRL track pair is already at capacity, and any excess is better used on Bacchus Marsh or Wyndham Vale locals, especially in peak.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
We could complete the Airport here for about 2.5 to 3 Billion if we  -

         refurbed and double track the broad gauge freight from Albion
         double tracked and dual gauged the existing standard gauge freight.
         re-route the Bendigo line trains through the Airport and Clarkefield.
         re-route the Seymour and Shepparton trains through the airport.
         Don't electrify and use surplus Sprinters, heavy refurbished for terminating services.

Michael

I've come around to Seymour and Shep not needing to go via Airport, instead those people can change at Sunshine. It makes the track work even more simple and cheap if only Bendigo trains go via airport to Clarkfield, and Seymour trains go along the existing Jacana railway.

In my pipe dreams, capacity on the RRL for extra Airport services would be freed up by Geelong to Airport VLine services running via Metro 2, but in the meantime (which will be a while, if not forever) you have to take the paths from Metro 1, RRL track pair is already at capacity, and any excess is better used on Bacchus Marsh or Wyndham Vale locals, especially in peak.
John.Z
We all have our dreams.

I have gone completely off Bendigo via Airport/Clarkfield.
It means every Bendigo pax from Albion down(including Sunbury), must backtrack to Sunshine to catch their train.

Seymour trains can already go via the Albion/Jacana.
Why they didn't do that when the LXRA are shutting the line is a mystery.
Downside being, not much room on RRL for them to get to Sunshine.

Now for my dream. Been said before.

Send Bendigo trains along the Ballarat, and then across country from Carolyn Springs to Diggers Rest.
Of course in conjuction with Sparks & extra track to Melton.
That would remove the mess RRL left behind at Sunshine, and give all Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo a clean run.
An expensive new track, but compared to multiple "fixes" needed and now MARL conflicts, probably no worse.

cheers
John
  Carnot Minister for Railways

We could complete the Airport here for about 2.5 to 3 Billion if we  -

         refurbed and double track the broad gauge freight from Albion
         double tracked and dual gauged the existing standard gauge freight.
         re-route the Bendigo line trains through the Airport and Clarkefield.
         re-route the Seymour and Shepparton trains through the airport.
         Don't electrify and use surplus Sprinters, heavy refurbished for terminating services.

Michael

I've come around to Seymour and Shep not needing to go via Airport, instead those people can change at Sunshine. It makes the track work even more simple and cheap if only Bendigo trains go via airport to Clarkfield, and Seymour trains go along the existing Jacana railway.

In my pipe dreams, capacity on the RRL for extra Airport services would be freed up by Geelong to Airport VLine services running via Metro 2, but in the meantime (which will be a while, if not forever) you have to take the paths from Metro 1, RRL track pair is already at capacity, and any excess is better used on Bacchus Marsh or Wyndham Vale locals, especially in peak.
We all have our dreams.

I have gone completely off Bendigo via Airport/Clarkfield.
It means every Bendigo pax from Albion down(including Sunbury), must backtrack to Sunshine to catch their train.

Seymour trains can already go via the Albion/Jacana.
Why they didn't do that when the LXRA are shutting the line is a mystery.
Downside being, not much room on RRL for them to get to Sunshine.

Now for my dream. Been said before.

Send Bendigo trains along the Ballarat, and then across country from Carolyn Springs to Diggers Rest.
Of course in conjuction with Sparks & extra track to Melton.
That would remove the mess RRL left behind at Sunshine, and give all Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo a clean run.
An expensive new track, but compared to multiple "fixes" needed and now MARL conflicts, probably no worse.

cheers
John
justarider
Yep, I reckon the Govt needs to get serious about Bendigo trains running via the OMR E6 alignment between Diggers Rest and Deer Park. I'm wondering if the long-awaited Western Rail Plan will mention it (only the Geelong Fast Rail & Airport Link have been made public)?
  John E Locomotive Driver

In regards to the OMR E6 alignment you could go one further and put in a track pair for Geelong Services from Tarneit West to Caroline Springs. Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo services would all meet near Caroline Springs and merge into their own separate track pair to Sunshine (and to the city). Most of this would be at grade so comparatively quite affordable.Some SRL services could come out from the airport and follow this alignment to Wyndham Vale and Werribee. Mixing can be fraught with danger but it could be done with the following frequencies:

1) Diggers Rest to Caroline Springs - 3 x Bendigo & 10 x SRL
2) Caroline Springs to Wyndham Vale & Werribee - 7 x Geelong & 10 x SRL

Of course all this is not going to happen because Geelong HS will go through Werribee, SRL is going to be Standard Gauge and tunnelling near Footscray could have it's problems (Westgate Tunnel PFAS).
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

We all have our dreams.

I have gone completely off Bendigo via Airport/Clarkfield.
It means every Bendigo pax from Albion down(including Sunbury), must backtrack to Sunshine to catch their train.

Seymour trains can already go via the Albion/Jacana.
Why they didn't do that when the LXRA are shutting the line is a mystery.
Downside being, not much room on RRL for them to get to Sunshine.

Now for my dream. Been said before.

Send Bendigo trains along the Ballarat, and then across country from Carolyn Springs to Diggers Rest.
Of course in conjuction with Sparks & extra track to Melton.
That would remove the mess RRL left behind at Sunshine, and give all Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo a clean run.
An expensive new track, but compared to multiple "fixes" needed and now MARL conflicts, probably no worse.

cheers
John
justarider
Why would pax need to backtrack. Any Bendigo service going via Airport/Clarkefield would surely see the Sunbury line extended to Clarkefield?

Although I do admire you anticipating the government smeg up what should be a simple outcome, because you're probably right, they would forget to extend the metro line to connect with the regional diversion.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
We all have our dreams.

I have gone completely off Bendigo via Airport/Clarkfield.
It means every Bendigo pax from Albion down(including Sunbury), must backtrack to Sunshine to catch their train.
Why would pax need to backtrack. Any Bendigo service going via Airport/Clarkefield would surely see the Sunbury line extended to Clarkefield?

Although I do admire you anticipating the government smeg up what should be a simple outcome, because you're probably right, they would forget to extend the metro line to connect with the regional diversion.
John.Z
Didn't the Monkees say all that needs to be said about "the last train to clarksfield".  

Don't be slow
Oh, no, no, no


A station deserving of no more than 1 train/hour  and you would spend big bucks making it a sparky terminus. It is not Craigeburn!

Yes we agree, likelyhood of govt stuffing up something so simple is what keeps RP amusing.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Didn't the Monkees say all that needs to be said about "the last train to clarksfield".  

Don't be slow
Oh, no, no, no


A station deserving of no more than 1 train/hour  and you would spend big bucks making it a sparky terminus. It is not Craigeburn!

Yes we agree, likelyhood of govt stuffing up something so simple is what keeps RP amusing.
justarider
You make a good point. Maybe a new shorter track from Sunbury to Gisborne and terminate the Metro there. At least someone lives in Gisborne.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
Why would pax need to backtrack. Any Bendigo service going via Airport/Clarkefield would surely see the Sunbury line extended to Clarkefield?

Although I do admire you anticipating the government smeg up what should be a simple outcome, because you're probably right, they would forget to extend the metro line to connect with the regional diversion.
John.Z
Well there is a precedent. Don't forget there is still no Metro connection between Werribee and Wyndhamvale.  What are we 7 years and counting since RRL was complete.  Must be great for those passengers wanting to travel between Werribee and Geelong.

Ross
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I watched those videos and I'm not impressed at the Sunshine Station one.

For starters, it looks like there won't be a platform for the SG line.
  8502 Junior Train Controller

I watched those videos and I'm not impressed at the Sunshine Station one.

For starters, it looks like there won't be a platform for the SG line.
Carnot

Considering the the North east has I think 10 passenger trains per day this does seem like an oversight.  This is the second time the station will be rebuilt without a SG platform.

Did it ever have one?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I watched those videos and I'm not impressed at the Sunshine Station one.

For starters, it looks like there won't be a platform for the SG line.

Considering the the North east has I think 10 passenger trains per day this does seem like an oversight.  This is the second time the station will be rebuilt without a SG platform.

Did it ever have one?
8502
Yes.  Regularly used from 1963 to 1991.
  Tii Junior Train Controller

I watched those videos and I'm not impressed at the Sunshine Station one.

For starters, it looks like there won't be a platform for the SG line.

Considering the the North east has I think 10 passenger trains per day this does seem like an oversight.  This is the second time the station will be rebuilt without a SG platform.

Did it ever have one?
Yes.  Regularly used from 1963 to 1991.
Carnot
...and then what happened ?
  8502 Junior Train Controller

I watched those videos and I'm not impressed at the Sunshine Station one.

For starters, it looks like there won't be a platform for the SG line.

Considering the the North east has I think 10 passenger trains per day this does seem like an oversight.  This is the second time the station will be rebuilt without a SG platform.

Did it ever have one?
Yes.  Regularly used from 1963 to 1991.
...and then what happened ?
Tii

Yes what happened?

I am not entirely positive but believe the number of daily SG passenger trains via Sunshine would have been a lot less than today.

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