Hurstbridge Line Upgrade Stage 2

 
  3088D Station Master

The news report is stating trains every 6.5 minutes but the line where I am is already at capacity and the trains are already full as you get between Heidelberg and Clifton Hill.

There is also mention of the upgrade at Clifton Hill Junction which would mean what?
Well after nearly 3 years, are we any closer to knowing if anything at all is planned yet? Or is it another announcement with no follow up?
Tii
If you refer to the work being undertaken for Clifton Hill and about electrical work near Jolimont there is advice here
about the electrical tie-in station and here about track and signalling upgrade work at Clifton Hill and stabling facilities near Vic Park. The line is closed this weekend for more of this work.

The big news is I think they’ve painted the edge of the platform at Clifton Hill in recent activity, at least I hadn’t noticed it before this week.

At the start of this thread in 2018, and as recently in the February 2021 in this press statement from the Premier a headway of seven minutes from Greensborough and ten minutes from Eltham and Monty was mentioned.

Danielle Green (Labor state MP for Yan Yean) issued a similar press statement in October reiterating that (peak?) trains would run "every six-and-a-half minutes at Greensborough, every 10 minutes at Eltham and Montmorency, and every 20 minutes at Hurstbridge, Diamond Creek and Wattle Glen”. In other words, half the Eltham up trains start at Hursty.

In an hour if Hursty supplies 3 (currently 2), Eltham another 3 (currently 4) for the “every 10 minutes at Eltham and Montmorency” then Greensborough must be the origin of another 3 to constitute the "every six-and-a-half minutes” service from Greensborough - or 9 per hour. This isn’t much increase in service unless this will be the pattern all day which I find hard to believe. Currently Greensborough sees 7 up trains from 6am to 7am, and 9 up trains from 7am to 8 am (2 originating from 6am-7am and 3 from 7am-8am), reducing to three per hour in the off-peak - a Saturday timetable.

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  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

The news report is stating trains every 6.5 minutes but the line where I am is already at capacity and the trains are already full as you get between Heidelberg and Clifton Hill.

There is also mention of the upgrade at Clifton Hill Junction which would mean what?
Well after nearly 3 years, are we any closer to knowing if anything at all is planned yet? Or is it another announcement with no follow up?
Tii
Constuction started a couple of months ago, with Sites being established at Greensborough, Monty and Diamond Creek. Major works are planned throughout 2021.

As for Clifton Hill there has been little mention at this stage besides the Jan 2020 press release

Rail system and signalling upgrades along the Hurstbridge line, including at Clifton Hill.
LXRP
The junction at Clifton Hill was rationalised sometime ago. They could replace/upgrade the track work and resignal to push more services through the choke point. But I wouldn't be expecting much here.

Lockie
  Tii Junior Train Controller

The news report is stating trains every 6.5 minutes but the line where I am is already at capacity and the trains are already full as you get between Heidelberg and Clifton Hill.

There is also mention of the upgrade at Clifton Hill Junction which would mean what?
Well after nearly 3 years, are we any closer to knowing if anything at all is planned yet? Or is it another announcement with no follow up?
If you refer to the work being undertaken for Clifton Hill and about electrical work near Jolimont there is advice here
about the electrical tie-in station and here about track and signalling upgrade work at Clifton Hill and stabling facilities near Vic Park. The line is closed this weekend for more of this work.

The big news is I think they’ve painted the edge of the platform at Clifton Hill in recent activity, at least I hadn’t noticed it before this week.
......
3088D
Yes I was referring more to the Clifton Hill junction for Hurstbridge/Mernda. Is it just a signalling/power upgrade I guess, rather than a whole junction change for now. If that works then great, waiting at Rushall is often a pain, and with the planned increases to frequency on both lines in a few years, I wonder how it will manage ?
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
about the electrical tie-in station and here about track and signalling upgrade work at Clifton Hill and stabling facilities near Vic Park. The line is closed this weekend for more of this work.

The big news is I think they’ve painted the edge of the platform at Clifton Hill in recent activity, at least I hadn’t noticed it before this week.
3088D
As Lockie says that press release is dated Jan 2020 and we have heard nothing since about what is going to take place at Clifton Hill to try to alleviate the choke point

At various times over the last 10 years I spent some time living in Northcote and having to wait line at Rushall each and every weekday morning and then I spent a few years commuting from Victoria Park to Southern Cross in the AM peak where it wasn't unusual to see 2 or 3 trains stop and go without being able to board due to overcrowding before I forced my way on as I risked missing my V/Line connection.

Whenever I am reminded of these times I thank goodness that I don't have to endure either of those trips anymore.
  Tii Junior Train Controller

about the electrical tie-in station and here about track and signalling upgrade work at Clifton Hill and stabling facilities near Vic Park. The line is closed this weekend for more of this work.

The big news is I think they’ve painted the edge of the platform at Clifton Hill in recent activity, at least I hadn’t noticed it before this week.
As Lockie says that press release is dated Jan 2020 and we have heard nothing since about what is going to take place at Clifton Hill to try to alleviate the choke point

At various times over the last 10 years I spent some time living in Northcote and having to wait line at Rushall each and every weekday morning and then I spent a few years commuting from Victoria Park to Southern Cross in the AM peak where it wasn't unusual to see 2 or 3 trains stop and go without being able to board due to overcrowding before I forced my way on as I risked missing my V/Line connection.

Whenever I am reminded of these times I thank goodness that I don't have to endure either of those trips anymore.
BrentonGolding
Likewise coming from Reservoir with the wait at Rushall each time. If Metro 2 ever happened with a dive from Merri under Clifton Hill, then great but I'll be dead before that ever starts or announced. But realistically if Mernda line increases off peak frequency after the planned LX removals this year,  then the situation isn't good without something. No update since 2020, so I'm guessing its another nothing other than power upgrades.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

about the electrical tie-in station and here about track and signalling upgrade work at Clifton Hill and stabling facilities near Vic Park. The line is closed this weekend for more of this work.

The big news is I think they’ve painted the edge of the platform at Clifton Hill in recent activity, at least I hadn’t noticed it before this week.
As Lockie says that press release is dated Jan 2020 and we have heard nothing since about what is going to take place at Clifton Hill to try to alleviate the choke point

At various times over the last 10 years I spent some time living in Northcote and having to wait line at Rushall each and every weekday morning and then I spent a few years commuting from Victoria Park to Southern Cross in the AM peak where it wasn't unusual to see 2 or 3 trains stop and go without being able to board due to overcrowding before I forced my way on as I risked missing my V/Line connection.

Whenever I am reminded of these times I thank goodness that I don't have to endure either of those trips anymore.
Likewise coming from Reservoir with the wait at Rushall each time. If Metro 2 ever happened with a dive from Merri under Clifton Hill, then great but I'll be dead before that ever starts or announced. But realistically if Mernda line increases off peak frequency after the planned LX removals this year,  then the situation isn't good without something. No update since 2020, so I'm guessing its another nothing other than power upgrades.
Tii
The big issue with the junction is not the junction itself, it is the single sections of track along the Hurstbridge line and the nightmare timetabling that needs to be done.

This has been slightly resolved as part of the Stage 1 upgrades to Rossana, removing one bottleneck. The last remaining one is Greensborough - Eltham which will be 90% resolved at the end of these works. (not 100% until the trestle bridge is solved).

Timetablers need to schedule trains to avoid conflicts at Clifton Hill. The means standardising the timetables on both the Mernda and Hurstbridge lines to arrive with in minutes of each other as to not cause delays. This is compounded by the need to do the same thing previously at Rossana and currently at Eltham.

So you have to avoid a conflict on the single section of track at Eltham, then again at Rossana and then finally timetable to avoid conflicts with the Merdna Line at Clifton Hill. If you have a late running DOWN Hurstbridge service this impacts the UP services on the single line sections, this inturn impacts the Clifton Hill Junction causing knock on delays out to Mernda which effects UP trains back to the junction which effect DOWN services back on the Hurstbridge line.

Talk about a bloody nightmare.

Having set frequencies from Eltham and Mernda makes the shuffle at the Junction much easier. Similar to what is done at Dandenong.

Lockie
  route14 Chief Commissioner

It's a pity that the duplication between Clifton Hill and Westgarth didn't include a flyover above the Mernda line.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
It's a pity that the duplication between Clifton Hill and Westgarth didn't include a flyover above the Mernda line.
route14
You'd have to knock down the Heidelberg Rd overpass on the down end first - and that's not going to happen in a hurry

Neil
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

It's a pity that the duplication between Clifton Hill and Westgarth didn't include a flyover above the Mernda line.
You'd have to knock down the Heidelberg Rd overpass on the down end first - and that's not going to happen in a hurry

Neil
ngarner
It's a right old mess.

Dig a trench (to remove the level crossing) and you have issues with merri creek I assume

The easiest way I can see is to raise the railway line and lower the road, but that's $500m I don't think the government wants to spend.

(You would be looking at Clifton Hill being 3 or 4 platforms ideally, with the hurstbride outbound track rising over the Mernda inbound track)

I'm thinking like Jurong East

  route14 Chief Commissioner

It has to happen sooner or later.  A flat junction is not going to cope with the increasing frequency.  The demand increase is unrelenting.
  Tii Junior Train Controller

It has to happen sooner or later.  A flat junction is not going to cope with the increasing frequency.  The demand increase is unrelenting.
route14
I guess we will see what happens once the Hurstbridge line 2 upgrade and the Mernda LX removals are done in 2022- maybe a new timetable then with higher off-peak frequencies perhaps (every 15 min?) Isn't High Capacity signalling potentially helpful to allow trains to run closer together. too from CH to city.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

It has to happen sooner or later.  A flat junction is not going to cope with the increasing frequency.  The demand increase is unrelenting.
I guess we will see what happens once the Hurstbridge line 2 upgrade and the Mernda LX removals are done in 2022- maybe a new timetable then with higher off-peak frequencies perhaps (every 15 min?) Isn't High Capacity signalling potentially helpful to allow trains to run closer together. too from CH to city.
Tii
At the moment the conventional signalling allows for a train every 3.5 minutes, they'd be wanting to get that down to 2.5 or even 2 minutes ideally. A combination of in cab signalling and an upgraded Clifton Hill could do that quite comfortably, as long as delayed trains could be held out of the way.

edit: Off peak they could run every 10 minutes to both Mernda and Greensborough today if they wanted to.
  tom9876543 Chief Train Controller

Re flat junction and Clifton Hill:

There is clearly enough room under Heidelberg Rd Bridge to build 4 railway tracks.

Clifton Hill station needs to be completely rebuilt as 4 railway tracks with 2 island platforms.
If there is a heritage problem I think the heritage overlay is stupid and should be removed.
There are many other stations in Melbourne network that represent railway architecture.

When Clifton Hill station is 4 platforms, there isn't any merge problem on the down side of station.

The railways tracks can merge on the up side of the station. Eventually 4 tracks can be extended further in up direction towards Flinders St.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
If Metro 2 gets built I expect Clifton Hill station would get 2 underground platforms for the Mernda line, leaving the existing platforms for the Hurstbridge line.

Meaning you wouldn't need the concrete jungle seen at Jurong East.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
And work has begun between Diamond Creek and Wattle Glen with some very large trees lopped near Wattle Glen and other vegetation clearing obviously underway

Neil
  Dissonance Beginner

Seems the government is no longer proceeding with duplicating part of the Montmorency to Eltham track to save a butterfly habitat.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/butterfly-flaps-its-wings-in-montmorency-and-upends-530m-rail-plan-20210623-p583kk.html
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Oh well, I suppose that's an excuse to save some dollars.

Now ditch the stupid NE link tunnel boondoggle please.
  doyle Chief Commissioner

Bloody wildlife
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
Seems the government is no longer proceeding with duplicating part of the Montmorency to Eltham track to save a butterfly habitat.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/butterfly-flaps-its-wings-in-montmorency-and-upends-530m-rail-plan-20210623-p583kk.html
Dissonance
They were only planning a 10min (peak) service to Eltham at best anyway: 4 mins to and from Monty is tight but ultimately still doable right?

If the line ever gets 10min off peak they'd probably only go to Greensborough.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Seems the government is no longer proceeding with duplicating part of the Montmorency to Eltham track to save a butterfly habitat.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/butterfly-flaps-its-wings-in-montmorency-and-upends-530m-rail-plan-20210623-p583kk.html
Dissonance
First of all, it's only a small section that are cutting, majority of the duplication works are going ahead. And it's not just the butterfly one would think, probably other environmental concerns have sprung up.

The news exaggerates the whole story just to make it interesting, also there will be signalling works being carried out to compensate the minor bit of less duplication so will still have the same frequencies as promised. The stations are being rebuilt as promised. Nothing will change except for about 900m of duplicated track that's been cut. No big deal really.
  3088D Station Master

The section of track now not being duplicated east of Monty station is, as has been observed, a bit over 1 km. What wasn't widely published was the information I received at one of the show and tell sessions: the track was to be duplicated only as far as the up side of the viaduct over Sherbourne Road - about half-way to Eltham station. I had thought that the track would go over a the second part of the viaduct which was provisioned at some time in the distant past but I was told that this task would be left for any future duplication down to Eltham station. I had visions of the track being reduced to single only as it reached the trestle bridge near Eltham, but that was never part of the plan.

I was informed also that the Mountain View Road tunnel just east of Monty Station was to be demolished as it is to narrow for duplication. This clearly would be a large and expensive task requiring the closure of the road for a time, but it seems that this also will not be happening.

Incidentally, the bridge over the Plenty River on the down side of Greensborough is being demolished and replaced despite the earlier provision for it to bear a second track pair. I was told that that the bridge is a long way short of the requirements of current standards.

As True Believers says, the report is exaggerated and almost tries to suggest that the whole project is endangered.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Anyone know which side of the railway line this supposed habitat is?
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Re flat junction and Clifton Hill:

There is clearly enough room under Heidelberg Rd Bridge to build 4 railway tracks.

Clifton Hill station needs to be completely rebuilt as 4 railway tracks with 2 island platforms.

If there is a heritage problem I think the heritage overlay is stupid and should be removed.

There are many other stations in Melbourne network that represent railway architecture.

When Clifton Hill station is 4 platforms, there isn't any merge problem on the down side of station.

The railways tracks can merge on the up side of the station. Eventually 4 tracks can be extended further in up direction towards Flinders St.
"tom9876543"
I have only just read this, and am curious to know how you are going to fit all of these initiatives into the available space.
First; you will be scratching for room to fit four tracks and two platforms between John Street and Hoddle Street at Clifton Hill. Then a problem will be space between the station and the Ramsden Street level crossing for merging trains from four tracks to two in the up direction. There sure 'n hell isn't any space on the up side of the crossing.
Then, for your next move, the up line from Clifton Hill runs along an embankment for much of its length, and is then followed by two tunnels. Where are you ("eventually") going to fit the two extra tracks?
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
Anyone know which side of the railway line this supposed habitat is?
railblogger
From the pic in the article it's probably above it on both sides, as the line goes level into the cutting out of Monty station and the land rises around it.

But possibly more to the North side given there's a bit more 'bush' (scrub?) there?
  tom9876543 Chief Train Controller

Re flat junction and Clifton Hill:

There is clearly enough room under Heidelberg Rd Bridge to build 4 railway tracks.

Clifton Hill station needs to be completely rebuilt as 4 railway tracks with 2 island platforms.

If there is a heritage problem I think the heritage overlay is stupid and should be removed.

There are many other stations in Melbourne network that represent railway architecture.

When Clifton Hill station is 4 platforms, there isn't any merge problem on the down side of station.

The railways tracks can merge on the up side of the station. Eventually 4 tracks can be extended further in up direction towards Flinders St.
I have only just read this, and am curious to know how you are going to fit all of these initiatives into the available space.
First; you will be scratching for room to fit four tracks and two platforms between John Street and Hoddle Street at Clifton Hill. Then a problem will be space between the station and the Ramsden Street level crossing for merging trains from four tracks to two in the up direction. There sure 'n hell isn't any space on the up side of the crossing.
Then, for your next move, the up line from Clifton Hill runs along an embankment for much of its length, and is then followed by two tunnels. Where are you ("eventually") going to fit the two extra tracks?
Valvegear

On Google Maps it appears the width between John St and Hoddle St is 34 metres.
34 metres is wide enough for 4 railway tracks and 2 platforms (or 3 platforms, 2 on outside + 1 island platform in middle).
Not sure why you say it's so difficult.

Again looking at Google Maps, i think the reservation of land between Clifton Hill and Victoria Park is wide enough for 4 railway tracks. I agree it will be very tight fit, so maybe I am wrong.

I agree there would need to be a tunnel built from Victoria Park to CBD if a new track pair was built down to VP.
The tunnel would go direct so journey time is reduced as much as possible. Don't need to overservice Collingwood to Jolimont stations.

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