Andrews Government rolls back partial order for 10 extra E-class trams

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 08 Dec 2020 14:37
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Well this is not great and I suppose highlights some of the other areas of the network which will need further investment to allow bigger trams of the E Class size.  Those substations must be 40 years old or longer?

Andrews Government rolls back partial order for 10 extra E-class trams

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  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Hey @route14 may be this is more to do with budget cuts than electricity?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Or perhaps a bit of both.  I wonder what the variations will be.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I was thinking perhaps they are below expectation?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

In terms of operating performance over special track components as I have noted, definitely.  However as others have mentioned, it would be illegal to go back to the Comeng trams' design.  Again, I wonder what the solution will be.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
So now we are going to pay for trams that are not going to be delivered. Just as well there is no budget problems in Victoria.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

If it WAS for the operation performance related problems, they could have identified them when just 10 trams were delivered, not 90.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

Seems the problem is they don't want to pay for the infrastructure upgrades (new substations) needed for the E class trams. But the problem isn't 'traction' making the trams go, the problem is the power drawn by airconditioning.
Really the suggestion that 'onboard energy storage' would solve this issue (at least in part) is fanciful.

If you still need a 30m tram (and the numbers don't change much for a smaller 20m tram), adding 'onboard energy storage' is just going to add weight, which overall, will INCREASE power consumption. You might be able to shave a peak off here or there, but extra weight == extra power. And with a network as big as Melbourne's, regenerative braking energy would nearly always be used by another tram in the same electrical zone, so why carry extra weight in batteries/supercaps around to store the recovered power ON the tram?


I think the snake-oil salesmen have been in the ear of PTV and politicians again.

The only thing that would make a significant dent in tram power consumption would be to drop airconditioning, but I can't see that going down too well with the public...
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Traction also takes up a lot of power, 510 kW total, 50 kW higher than C1 class.
    A C2 class totals 516 kW in traction power.  So why don't they have power trouble?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Nothing is ever quite what it seems or what you are misled to believe by politicians and or government.
Thankfully they got the track gauge more or less right at least.Smile
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

There are only 5 x C2.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

What's a partial order?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I wonder the same.  Didn't they just announce an extended order of another 100?
    On a related note, when Yarra Trams announced the extended order of another 100 trams on their Linkedin, I commented about their disadvantages (which I posted on the forum earlier).  My comment went missing.  Did they actually send it to the government but didn't want them known via Linkedin?
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The 2020 Budget was for 100 Next Generation Trams ($1.5 billion). The 2019 Budget allocated funds for the development of NGTs (F-class?), which means, if the trams are not be in service until 2025, they will have taken 6 years to develop. It looks like nothing has been done for the last 18 months. Since the NGTs will replace A & Z-class trams, it would seem they’ll basically just be smaller trams than the E-class, with consequential power savings.

It’s hard to keep up with exactly what has been ordered as some orders don’t appear in one or other budgets. Meeting DDA compliance by 2032 seems doubtful, at best.
  mike49 Locomotive Fireman

The 2020 Budget was for 100 Next Generation Trams ($1.5 billion). The 2019 Budget allocated funds for the development of NGTs (F-class?), which means, if the trams are not be in service until 2025, they will have taken 6 years to develop. It looks like nothing has been done for the last 18 months. Since the NGTs will replace A & Z-class trams, it would seem they’ll basically just be smaller trams than the E-class, with consequential power savings.

It’s hard to keep up with exactly what has been ordered as some orders don’t appear in one or other budgets. Meeting DDA compliance by 2032 seems doubtful, at best.
kitchgp

We still have around 300 high floor trams in service so production of new trams would have to double to 20-25 per year from now until 2032 to meet that deadline. As you say it seems highly unlikely.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The 2020 Budget was for 100 Next Generation Trams ($1.5 billion). The 2019 Budget allocated funds for the development of NGTs (F-class?), which means, if the trams are not be in service until 2025, they will have taken 6 years to develop. It looks like nothing has been done for the last 18 months. Since the NGTs will replace A & Z-class trams, it would seem they’ll basically just be smaller trams than the E-class, with consequential power savings.

It’s hard to keep up with exactly what has been ordered as some orders don’t appear in one or other budgets. Meeting DDA compliance by 2032 seems doubtful, at best.

We still have around 300 high floor trams in service so production of new trams would have to double to 20-25 per year from now until 2032 to meet that deadline. As you say it seems highly unlikely.
mike49
They could be replacing two small trams with one big tram...
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
The 2020 Budget was for 100 Next Generation Trams ($1.5 billion). The 2019 Budget allocated funds for the development of NGTs (F-class?), which means, if the trams are not be in service until 2025, they will have taken 6 years to develop. It looks like nothing has been done for the last 18 months. Since the NGTs will replace A & Z-class trams, it would seem they’ll basically just be smaller trams than the E-class, with consequential power savings.

It’s hard to keep up with exactly what has been ordered as some orders don’t appear in one or other budgets. Meeting DDA compliance by 2032 seems doubtful, at best.

We still have around 300 high floor trams in service so production of new trams would have to double to 20-25 per year from now until 2032 to meet that deadline. As you say it seems highly unlikely.
They could be replacing two small trams with one big tram...
railblogger
...At the cost of service levels. Highly unlikely, as someone else has already commented.

Neil
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Is there anymore news around this? The E class will definitely finish at 100? Is there any news about a follow on F class?

I am surprised to see E class running on the route 30...a total waste of tram.

Seems like the Z3 and A will be with us for a long, long time yet...
  mike49 Locomotive Fireman

Is there anymore news around this? The E class will definitely finish at 100? Is there any news about a follow on F class?

I am surprised to see E class running on the route 30...a total waste of tram.

Seems like the Z3 and A will be with us for a long, long time yet...
Mr. Lane
I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I understood that the use of E class trams on route 30 was just temporary until they go into service on route 58. Driver training has been taking place on the latter.

As for the next generation trams who knows? Money was allocated in last years budget but where the project is currently up to is anybody's guess.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

https://infrastructurepipeline.org/project/next-generation-trams

The first tram isn’t expected until 2025. Supposedly, the rest of the order will be completed by 2029. The project also includes a tram maintenance facility in the north-west.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Some photos from VicSig's Latest Photos webpage (click on the blue caption for date taken, etc):

https://vicsig.net/photo/25191
Photo: Ian Green




https://vicsig.net/photo/25179
Photo: Ian Green
  tram1041 Station Master

Is there anymore news around this? The E class will definitely finish at 100? Is there any news about a follow on F class?

I am surprised to see E class running on the route 30...a total waste of tram.

Seems like the Z3 and A will be with us for a long, long time yet...
I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I understood that the use of E class trams on route 30 was just temporary until they go into service on route 58. Driver training has been taking place on the latter.

As for the next generation trams who knows? Money was allocated in last years budget but where the project is currently up to is anybody's guess.
mike49
Mike you are correct the use of E's on the route 30 is only temporary to give them in service time and to build up the km's.I have heard that the route 30 may not be a stand alone route after the E's start on the 58,but rather be absorbed into anther route which will be the full time Latrobe st service plus the fact that the A's are due to start being life extended in the next couple of months meaning a few of the road at any one time.There will however be some surplus Z3's lurking around so maybe we will see some of these fill the gap.  

E Class are due to start on the 58 on 3/10.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
https://infrastructurepipeline.org/project/next-generation-trams

The first tram isn’t expected until 2025. Supposedly, the rest of the order will be completed by 2029. The project also includes a tram maintenance facility in the north-west.
kitchgp
C 3011 strikes again!

Archived here for the world to see if/when the original page disappears. Smile
https://web.archive.org/web/20210626084502/https://infrastructurepipeline.org/project/next-generation-trams
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Is there anymore news around this? The E class will definitely finish at 100? Is there any news about a follow on F class?

I am surprised to see E class running on the route 30...a total waste of tram.

Seems like the Z3 and A will be with us for a long, long time yet...
I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I understood that the use of E class trams on route 30 was just temporary until they go into service on route 58. Driver training has been taking place on the latter.

As for the next generation trams who knows? Money was allocated in last years budget but where the project is currently up to is anybody's guess.
Mike you are correct the use of E's on the route 30 is only temporary to give them in service time and to build up the km's.I have heard that the route 30 may not be a stand alone route after the E's start on the 58,but rather be absorbed into anther route which will be the full time Latrobe st service plus the fact that the A's are due to start being life extended in the next couple of months meaning a few of the road at any one time.There will however be some surplus Z3's lurking around so maybe we will see some of these fill the gap.  

E Class are due to start on the 58 on 3/10.
tram1041
Not sufficient E class in total currently to make a substantial improvement on 58 so 4 - 5 are temporarily on the 30 Latrobe Street Shuttle.

With last of 100 E class nearing then a worthwhile no of E class can go onto 58 (including those currently on 30 in Latrobe Street).  There is some word around that then that will release 5 - 6 A-2 off 58, which will then be added to Route 75 and allow Route 75 extension up Latrobe St to terminate at St Vincents Plaza Turnback, (replacing Route 30 in Latrobe St altogether.)

Further to improve the service frequency in Latrobe St 12 should revert to operating via Latrobe & Spencer Streets, with 30 running with available A & Z class a Collins Street shuttle between Victoria Harbour & St Vincents Plaza.  Eliminates turning moves at Spencer/Collins, and provides continuous service along Spencer St, plus increases frequency in Latrobe Street  "win/win".
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

An E class draws 1200 amps on starting in the CBD.  The new trams 25m long for 125 pax are to feature on board energy storage, so that when they start in CBD energy draw will be no greater than 600amps.

This avoids the need for additional substations in the CBD which are very hard to site, plus potentially on any future short extensions wiring may not be required for the extension other than at the terminus to maintain a/c etc lighting and recharge the on board electrical storage whilst at the terminus.

Intention is to replace all existing  Z, A, and B2 class trams with  1.7 of the new type tram so as to replace the remaining existing  high floor fleet plus cater for projected growth in patronage. (B2 class will be last to go apparently)

The only issue is we should be adding 25 new trams a year to cater for growth and also to achieve a fully compliant DDA low floor fleet by 2032. To date we have been adding only 10 new trams a year and now we are not going to get any new trams for three years 2022, 2023 & 2024  !!!!!

It has taken a staggering 10 years to come up with the spec and actually get to calling for EOI for the new energy efficient tram type.

Unfortunately the tram network is the poor cousin in terms of both fleet investment, and also the most logical network improvements to maximize the best use of the existing network asset.  

For example :  1. 300m of  missing track in Park Street South Melbourne to allow trams from the Domain to also enter the CBD via Clarendon and Spencer Street  2.  750m of new track in Victoria Street between Latrobe and Swanston Streets allowing for a Northern cross city tram route from Victoria Gardens to Arden Station. and 3. A 250m extension from the existing Port Melbourne terminus to the Station Pier Gatehouse.

Trams carry 86 % of the patronage carried by Metro trains, and actually carry more people at Off Peak times than Metro trains, but capex wise our ever faithful tram network gets handed funding "Crumbs".

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