Westwood Collision Central Line

 
  Expost Chief Commissioner

Does anyone thinks this accident would delay coal deliveries to power stations near Gladstone and Rockhampton? Would probably be concerning especially after the Callide power station explosion.
tpw
Would not be a concern. Contingencies are in place to deal with short term loss of supply, ie stockpiles at Stanwell and NRG. Longer term shortages, which didnt happen with this event, can be dealt with by other means, eg via Moura system.

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  tpw Station Master

Does anyone thinks this accident would delay coal deliveries to power stations near Gladstone and Rockhampton? Would probably be concerning especially after the Callide power station explosion.
Would not be a concern. Contingencies are in place to deal with short term loss of supply, ie stockpiles at Stanwell and NRG. Longer term shortages, which didnt happen with this event, can be dealt with by other means, eg via Moura system.
Expost

Would coal from Rolleston or Curragh mines be able to transport coal towards Rockhampton and Gladstone area though? I thought the Moura system can only get coal from mines in Callide, Baralba, etc.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Does anyone thinks this accident would delay coal deliveries to power stations near Gladstone and Rockhampton? Would probably be concerning especially after the Callide power station explosion.
Would not be a concern. Contingencies are in place to deal with short term loss of supply, ie stockpiles at Stanwell and NRG. Longer term shortages, which didnt happen with this event, can be dealt with by other means, eg via Moura system.

Would coal from Rolleston or Curragh mines be able to transport coal towards Rockhampton and Gladstone area though? I thought the Moura system can only get coal from mines in Callide, Baralba, etc.
tpw

There were three tracks where this accident happened, as far I know trains have been moving past the crash site for several days. All coal mined on the Blackwater system has to move through Westwood - and around 178,000-tonnes of coal goes through there everyday.
  Expost Chief Commissioner

Does anyone thinks this accident would delay coal deliveries to power stations near Gladstone and Rockhampton? Would probably be concerning especially after the Callide power station explosion.
Would not be a concern. Contingencies are in place to deal with short term loss of supply, ie stockpiles at Stanwell and NRG. Longer term shortages, which didnt happen with this event, can be dealt with by other means, eg via Moura system.

Would coal from Rolleston or Curragh mines be able to transport coal towards Rockhampton and Gladstone area though? I thought the Moura system can only get coal from mines in Callide, Baralba, etc.
tpw
Yes, in a pinch, coal for NRG is not an issue from Moura system. Callide supplies coal via conveyor to Callide power station. Routing to NRG Gladstone not an issue, capacity might be, as they are only 58 wagon trains into and out of Callide. As for getting thermal to Stanwell, if you cant get it from the west, then the push pull trains from Callide are again, the best things for this. Run forward out to Callide then back to Byellie, then change ends, up to Warren with wagons running backwards, then change ends again, into Stanwell balloon, unload, then out to Warren, change ends, then run wagons backwards all the way out to Callide, then back to Warren, and repeat. Trackside provisioning can be done. There is flexibility in the system.
  emerald-a Junior Train Controller

For a destroyed loco  2471 looks surpringly ok sitting in the siding its in,  wonder if it has a bent chassis to cause it.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
For a destroyed loco  2471 looks surpringly ok sitting in the siding its in,  wonder if it has a bent chassis to cause it.
emerald-a
I guess "destroyed" means uneconomical to repair, written off.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
For a destroyed loco  2471 looks surpringly ok sitting in the siding its in,  wonder if it has a bent chassis to cause it.
I guess "destroyed" means uneconomical to repair, written off.
Graham4405
The beauty of the English language.
All three terms have totally different meanings.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
'... But realistically today, we simple cheap technology available, we shouldn't be reliant on a person to visually see a train ahead and at the higher speed on track ie 80 - 120 km/h with poorer visibility and thousands of tonnes on your tail this only gets you so far anyway. ...'

I beg to differ. Nothing is simple in rail anymore (at least the way things are done here in Oz anyway). Radar would need to overcome/identify/facilitate:
  • Grades
  • Curves
  • Adjacent road traffic
  • Tin sheds
  • Stabled trains/rolling stock
  • Opposing trains on double lines
  • On board equipment including aerials, power supplies, screens and interpretation thereof
End result would replicate some of the recent US Navy collisions at sea. Don't look around - just watch the screen! Bit like Victorian roads - don't drive to conditions just watch the speedo.

' ... Same technology would have likely prevented Wallan, CTT Crash Mk 1 etc. All of which had a 2nd person to provide a so called higher level of safety, but didn't. ...'

I don't see how. Such technology would, presumably, record who said what and/or did what in the lead up to the incident for posterity but I cannot see how technology of the type being discussed would have prevented Wallan, or done other than perhaps apportion blame for the derailment after the event.

Bear in mind that the foregoing is all in the context of on board radar to 'see' what the eye cannot and record actions prior to the incident. It does not drive the train or undertake the safeworking.
YM-Mundrabilla
Hi,
You've taken my reply out of the context it was intended. I never said replace the driver looking, but rather as a back door safety system supervising.

It is a bit mind boggling that today, we are solely reliant on the driver visual reference to prevent a collision or incidents like Wallan. ie $10-20m of trains and its contents totally reliant on one person's visual observation of the conditions ahead to ensure "no paint is lost". If we think this is the only pathway to the future, this is the pathway to obscurity.

So what to do?
An ipad has access to GPS, even Google Maps often has a fairly accurate layout of the tracks, but realistically you'd have the track diagrams overlaid in Google Maps or similar. Now the ipad knows exactly where the train is, direction, speed of the track, upcoming speed reductions, location of points etc. TSR's etc can easily be uploaded via mobile network and in remote locations via wifi from a CTC single box which are connected to the central network. direction through points can also be uploaded live prior to arriving at the points and provide advanced notice to driver of direction and speed.

In lieu of areas where there is no mobile phone coverage, connection via satellite is a simple although requires additional equipment to be installed on each loco, but even STARLINK costs just $400 installed on a house.

With a mostly continuous connection to control the same system also know where other trains are and can provide a mobile buffer.

So with all this information easily available the ipad can oversee the driver's control. Should the driver breach a reduction in speed requirement for what ever reason, corner, TSR, traffic ahead etc with no action, it can first warn the driver then if still no action apply the brakes. The system does not operate the train in any other way and could world in areas outside the current CTC regions. No it won't protect against a breakaway, but should the train in front stop then the driver can indicate this and therefore increase the safety buffer.

In the case of Wallan (and yes I find the need to have a pilot as out dated as the steam engine, but its a requirement of the dated safe working), control would have changed the points as they did, the change in approach speed then appears on the "ipad" along with any other changes for that section of track. Should the driver fail to reduce speed at the nominal braking location, first a warning, then if no action brakes are applied. Ideally before the need for the train to go into full Emergency.

The same ipad can also maintain last few hours in cam CCTV to be accessed incase of an incident and if required.


Anyway, just my thoughts and I believe something similar was tested in Mumbai 10 years ago on the suburban system.
  Cato56 Station Master

Oh look, ARTC should have just hired some foamer instead of Lockheed Martin to developed ATMS ( not that they haven't screwed the pooch either), given he seems to think he has all the answers.

I cannot imagine a more stark example of the Dunning-Kruger effect than someone suggesting an iPad perform a safety related function in a railway signalling context.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Oh look, ARTC should have just hired some foamer instead of Lockheed Martin to developed ATMS ( not that they haven't screwed the pooch either), given he seems to think he has all the answers.

I cannot imagine a more stark example of the Dunning-Kruger effect than someone suggesting an iPad perform a safety related function in a railway signalling context.
Cato56
Are you aware that Protection Officers in parts of NSW apply for their Work on Trak authorities via an IPad?
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Oh look, ARTC should have just hired some foamer instead of Lockheed Martin to developed ATMS ( not that they haven't screwed the pooch either), given he seems to think he has all the answers.
I cannot imagine a more stark example of the Dunning-Kruger effect than someone suggesting an iPad perform a safety related function in a railway signalling context.
Cato56
Cato56, your above quote suggests you poured contempt on someone who suggested they use an Ipad for a safety related function. However, in the very safety aware airline industry, pilots' cockpit Ipads are called 'Electronic Flight Bags' with the following link to the Airbus site providing data, including images, of these used in Airbus craft.

https://services.airbus.com/en/flight-operations/system-upgrades/electronic-flight-bag/ipad-mount.html
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Are you aware that Protection Officers in parts of NSW apply for their Work on Trak authorities via an IPad?  
theanimal
However, in the very safety aware airline industry, pilots' cockpit Ipads are called 'Electronic Flight Bags'
petan
Theses examples are miles away from what RTT_Rules is proposing. Happy to be corrected but the application for Work on Trak authorities would be a static administrative process via an app or online portal would it not? Airlines use them as a replacement for paper charts for navigation and procedures and so on and are not used for controlling the plane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockpit_iPads

I would want something a lot more robust and accurate than a store bought ipad and google maps for real time monitoring if you're giving it the ability to integrate into signalling and safeworking to apply the brakes on my train!
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I would want something a lot more robust and accurate than a store bought ipad and google maps for real time monitoring if you're giving it the ability to integrate into signalling and safeworking to apply the brakes on my train!
jakar
Yes, you would want it to be an iPad on an enterprise deployment scheme rather than just an app on a personal device.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Are you aware that Protection Officers in parts of NSW apply for their Work on Trak authorities via an IPad?  
However, in the very safety aware airline industry, pilots' cockpit Ipads are called 'Electronic Flight Bags'
Theses examples are miles away from what RTT_Rules is proposing. Happy to be corrected but the application for Work on Trak authorities would be a static administrative process via an app or online portal would it not? Airlines use them as a replacement for paper charts for navigation and procedures and so on and are not used for controlling the plane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockpit_iPads

I would want something a lot more robust and accurate than a store bought ipad and google maps for real time monitoring if you're giving it the ability to integrate into signalling and safeworking to apply the brakes on my train!
jakar
If you have flown in normal airlines in recent times since 'Electronic Flight Bags' became common, your life has been dependent on Ipads, especially if flown in storms around airports in non visual conditions. This is because the charts with waypoint data, including height and speed requirements, the pilots use to avoid your plane hitting buildings and hills and other planes around airports during storms are being read off an Ipad. Naturally these Ipads are using approved air navigation Ipad software, not just using normal apps.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
If you have flown in normal airlines in recent times since 'Electronic Flight Bags' became common, your life has been dependent on Ipads, especially if flown in storms around airports in non visual conditions. This is because the charts with waypoint data, including height and speed requirements, the pilots use to avoid your plane hitting buildings and hills and other planes around airports during storms are being read off an Ipad. Naturally these Ipads are using approved air navigation Ipad software, not just using normal apps.
petan
True, the charts are on the iPads, but the approach being flown by the autopilot is loaded into the FMS/FMGC, the charts are only used to confirm the aircraft is where it is supposed to be,. Unless the crew are flying raw-data, itself extremely unusual these days when flying on-the-line, the charts are for reference only, and both crew have a charged iPad with the relevant chart displayed, so if one does fail, they can transfer control to the other pilot.

That being said, there have been multiple cases where incorrect data entered into either an iPad, or laptop-type device has resulted in erroneous takeoff calculations, the most significant in Oz being the Emirates overrun in Melbourne a few years ago, but the same could happen with paper charts, and it has before.

I use an iPad loaded with both the visual and approach charts when I go flying, but I wouldn't want to display primary flight data on it, nor would I want an iPad or other off-the-shelf device to be interfaced to the signalling or braking system on my train, the hardware nor software are certified to such a safety integrity level.

In my case, while they iPad can display the relevant charts, I cannot use the on-board GPS to (legally) display my location on the chart and use that to say "I am here!". To use GPS (GNSS in flying speak) for position-fixing in accordance with the AIP, the GNSS unit must be certified to TSO-C129A standards or above.

The iPad isn't, which is why I have a KLN-90B TSO'd unit in my plane, so I can push the "positive-fix" time out from 30 minutes (based on visual navigation) to 2 hours.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Regarding operating the brakes on the train, as mentioned by an earlier poster; well, many train brakes are already operated by computer chips unless you are still only using air brakes. Remember an Ipad is just a portable computer with a fancy screen. It all depends on what authorized specialized proprietary software is fitted in the Ipad, assuming we are not talking about hobby / enthusiast software anyway. Certainly many suburban passenger trains in this country have a form of electronic breaking. Computers already operate Australian railway signal / safe working equipment, so adding a computer with specialised railway approved proprietary software that is portable with a fancy screen, such as an Ipad, is no great leap.
  Cato56 Station Master

If you are not familiar with the application of IEC 61508, EN50126, EN51028 and EN50129 you do not have sufficient base knowledge to meaningfully contribute to a discussion regarding what is and isn't appropriate with respect to functional safety systems in railway applications.

You do not know what you do not know.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I do know that trains are not meant to collide......... Evil or Very Mad
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Oh look, ARTC should have just hired some foamer instead of Lockheed Martin to developed ATMS ( not that they haven't screwed the pooch either), given he seems to think he has all the answers.

I cannot imagine a more stark example of the Dunning-Kruger effect than someone suggesting an iPad perform a safety related function in a railway signalling context.
Cato56
It was an example but you are aware that ipads are now used by pilots when fault finding etc and that the chip in the ipad (or Samsung equivalent) is far more advanced than likely anything used in the locos on the rails today.

My point was and still is that this technology, what ever is used is at least a decade behind, these accidents shouldn't occur. You didn't need to go on a irrelevant rant to say that ATMS is in development.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Are you aware that Protection Officers in parts of NSW apply for their Work on Trak authorities via an IPad?  
However, in the very safety aware airline industry, pilots' cockpit Ipads are called 'Electronic Flight Bags'
Theses examples are miles away from what RTT_Rules is proposing. Happy to be corrected but the application for Work on Trak authorities would be a static administrative process via an app or online portal would it not? Airlines use them as a replacement for paper charts for navigation and procedures and so on and are not used for controlling the plane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockpit_iPads

I would want something a lot more robust and accurate than a store bought ipad and google maps for real time monitoring if you're giving it the ability to integrate into signalling and safeworking to apply the brakes on my train!
jakar
Bloody oath peoples, it was an example to demonstrate an option. Isn't safe working in QR land away from CTC one via a laptop which has control over the train?

If it makes you feel better, but the industrial version of the ipad which we use at work for controlling equipment. Same device, just in a more industrial case. Moral of the story the basic platform is very much likely to be the same or similar.
  Expost Chief Commissioner

Are you aware that Protection Officers in parts of NSW apply for their Work on Trak authorities via an IPad?  
However, in the very safety aware airline industry, pilots' cockpit Ipads are called 'Electronic Flight Bags'
Theses examples are miles away from what RTT_Rules is proposing. Happy to be corrected but the application for Work on Trak authorities would be a static administrative process via an app or online portal would it not? Airlines use them as a replacement for paper charts for navigation and procedures and so on and are not used for controlling the plane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockpit_iPads

I would want something a lot more robust and accurate than a store bought ipad and google maps for real time monitoring if you're giving it the ability to integrate into signalling and safeworking to apply the brakes on my train!
Bloody oath peoples, it was an example to demonstrate an option. Isn't safe working in QR land away from CTC one via a laptop which has control over the train?

If it makes you feel better, but the industrial version of the ipad which we use at work for controlling equipment. Same device, just in a more industrial case. Moral of the story the basic platform is very much likely to be the same or similar.
RTT_Rules
No, the "laptop" doesnt have control of the train. DTC is simply a program for sending and recieving safeworking instructions, and the actual transmissions are still done over the radio. The driver has control of the train. Even ETCS wont prevent SPADS completely.
  Expost Chief Commissioner

And as I have said before, speculation about the causes of this accident is pointless. PLease let the investigation occur. However, if you feel you must contribute, then consider contributing financially to the Gofundme set up by the AFULE to help out the deceased drivers family.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
If you feel you must contribute, then consider contributing financially to the Gofundme set up by the AFULE to help out the deceased drivers family.
Expost
A noble cause, no doubt, but isn't/shouldn't this all be covered by insurance? Worker's Compensation etc.
  Expost Chief Commissioner

If you feel you must contribute, then consider contributing financially to the Gofundme set up by the AFULE to help out the deceased drivers family.
A noble cause, no doubt, but isn't/shouldn't this all be covered by insurance? Worker's Compensation etc.
Graham4405
How long do those things take to pay up? I think the Gofundme is more for helping the family out in the immediate future.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
If you feel you must contribute, then consider contributing financially to the Gofundme set up by the AFULE to help out the deceased drivers family.
A noble cause, no doubt, but isn't/shouldn't this all be covered by insurance? Worker's Compensation etc.
How long do those things take to pay up? I think the Gofundme is more for helping the family out in the immediate future.
Expost
No idea, but one would hope they would act swiftly to ensure that the families is cared for. If there is a delay it should be incumbent on the employer to ensure they are looked after until payments etc can be arranged. In my one and only experience with Workers' Compensation (in 1977 IIRC) my employer paid me through the period I was unable to work and Workers' Compensation reimbursed them. An arrangement like that should ensure that all are taken care of adequately.

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