Five injured after truck ploughs into Melbourne pavement

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 07 May 2021 07:29
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The problem is well known, it is finding a solution that is the problem

With placarded loads banned from tunnels there are very few routes avl for these vehicles to get from the port or wherever they originate from to destinations in Melbourne's East

The solution is an intermodal terminal up and running in the outer east which has been ignored by the government.  There is also the issue of the intermodal terminal delays for Gippsland.
bevans
While this Is a good Idea, the realty It would not really cut the number of trucks turning at this City corner.

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Interesting to see if they charge the car driver.

"Trucks or vehicles over 7.5 metres long displaying a 'Do Not Overtake Turning Vehicle' sign are allowed to use more than one lane to turn. You are not allowed to overtake these vehicles while they are turning." - VicRoads

May apply to some towed caravans.


https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi3jL2z9c_xAhUTwzgGHarIAdoQFjANegQIJxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhvr.gov.au%2Ffiles%2F202007-0849-vsb12-national-code-of-practice-rear-marking-plates.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3wdBelroTHBQdnT9o-NWVh
kitchgp
The trouble Is many of these Uni Student City car drivers wouldn't have a clue what these signs mean.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Interesting to see if they charge the car driver.

"Trucks or vehicles over 7.5 metres long displaying a 'Do Not Overtake Turning Vehicle' sign are allowed to use more than one lane to turn. You are not allowed to overtake these vehicles while they are turning." - VicRoads

May apply to some towed caravans.


https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi3jL2z9c_xAhUTwzgGHarIAdoQFjANegQIJxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhvr.gov.au%2Ffiles%2F202007-0849-vsb12-national-code-of-practice-rear-marking-plates.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3wdBelroTHBQdnT9o-NWVh
The trouble Is many of these Uni Student City car drivers wouldn't have a clue what these signs mean.
Nightfire
I reckon 50% of Melbourne would barely know or pay atttention to those signs irregardless....
  8502 Train Controller

The problem is well known, it is finding a solution that is the problem

With placarded loads banned from tunnels there are very few routes avl for these vehicles to get from the port or wherever they originate from to destinations in Melbourne's East

The solution is an intermodal terminal up and running in the outer east which has been ignored by the government.  There is also the issue of the intermodal terminal delays for Gippsland.
While this Is a good Idea, the realty It would not really cut the number of trucks turning at this City corner.
Nightfire

If those trucks are avoiding the need to access the tunnels to the eastern suburbs then an intermodal terminal in the east does make some sense especially when considering the freight is to and from the port.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The problem is well known, it is finding a solution that is the problem

With placarded loads banned from tunnels there are very few routes avl for these vehicles to get from the port or wherever they originate from to destinations in Melbourne's East

The solution is an intermodal terminal up and running in the outer east which has been ignored by the government.  There is also the issue of the intermodal terminal delays for Gippsland.
While this Is a good Idea, the realty It would not really cut the number of trucks turning at this City corner.

If those trucks are avoiding the need to access the tunnels to the eastern suburbs then an intermodal terminal in the east does make some sense especially when considering the freight is to and from the port.
8502
never to let a few facts get in the way of a good story, BUT
the first offending tanker truck was going to Truganina. The latest, is a taughtliner.

Neither going to the port.

Both going the only route possible to get back to the Westgate after the City Rd detour (instead of tunnel).
The only other way, once on City Rd, is to go via Montague St (and bang your head on the rail bridge)

Blame VicRoads for designing that clusterf@K.
  8502 Train Controller

Is this really the only way between the east and the west I think not.

It is possible to go via the outer ring road which is what they should be doing for B-Double.  Either way it is no longer appropriate to use the inner city route I would suspect.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Is this really the only way between the east and the west I think not.

It is possible to go via the outer ring road which is what they should be doing for B-Double.  Either way it is no longer appropriate to use the inner city route I would suspect.
8502
M80 east.

Yer, sure. Through B-double heavily restricted Heidelberg/Greensborough.
Try doing a right turn Banksia St to Lwr Plenty Rd. A b-double woulď take out a least 6 cars, any time of day.
And that's  only one turn of many similar on the trek to the M80 start point

Even the North East Link tunnel won't solve the problem for placarded vehicles
  Stafford Station Master

Location: Kalgoorlie
Nice clickbait title from 9 news as usual, nothing unexpected there.

Anyway, I don't know why an acid tanker would be in that particular part of the city, it strikes me as odd since an acid tanker of that size is more likely to be servicing heavy industry, anyway I guess the truth will come out in due course.
The driver may have been lost, and obviously screwed up his turn. A 64 year old driver implies experience, but that's not a given.
Having taken a look at the intersection in question it is definitely possible to get around that corner in a B-double without running over the footpath, but it would definitely require setting up correctly - use the next lane in from the turning lane while blocking the turning lane with your trailers, then swing deep into the intersection and turn hard, the dog trailers tyres shouldn't even touch the kerb.

Obviously it also makes a difference as to what kind of B-double it was, a 19-20m 'pocket' double, or the standard 26m double?
I did fuel deliveries around Melbourne back in the noughties in a 19m double and some areas were tight even in one of those.

As for trucks in general being around the city, as long as you have commercial enterprises around the city, you will need trucks. End of.
For trucks passing the city, as mentioned previously, dangerous goods vehicles are not allowed in the tunnel and for good reason - remember the 2007 Burnley tunnel fire? Allegedly that was caused by one of the car fuel tanks igniting, so, 50-ish litres of petrol.
Now imagine a semi carrying forty-odd thousand litres of fuel catching fire down there.... yeah, not a scenario anyone wants to occur.

Any non-DG, non-oversize trucks will use the tunnel, so no problems of being in the city with them.

Alternate routes. 8502 mentioned going around the top - which is possible... except that inevitably trucks will have to use major roads to go from the Western Ring Road to the Eastern Freeway, something I'm sure the local residents will be thrilled about, of course, East-West link was supposed to provide a solution to this buuuut the usual NIMBYs had their day and it got canned (for now).
Also the roads the trucks would need to use in those suburbs, Greensborough, Montmorency, Templestowe, Eltham, are all quite hilly and aren't well suited to trucks anyway. Hills = increase in noise, pollution, and road wear from heavy vehicles.

Bevans solution to put containers on the train from the docks to the east could work sure, but I doubt it would have the affect he envisions - as a truckie heading from the docks to the eastern suburbs I'd never go via the city hauling a container when Citylink/tunnels/Monash freeway is right there. The only reason a container hauler would be in the city is if it was to be delivered somewhere in that area, probably not in the city itself, but a nearby inner suburb.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Watched a B-double do the turn today. Fair speed (about 30kph).

Start from right lane, full swing around the left. Clean as a whistle, and finished straight as a die.

Put his blinkers on early, and the inside cars held back and gave plenty of room.

No problems at all, when drivers are paying attention, and know how to drive properly.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Watched a B-double do the turn today. Fair speed (about 30kph).

Start from right lane, full swing around the left. Clean as a whistle, and finished straight as a die.

Put his blinkers on early, and the inside cars held back and gave plenty of room.

No problems at all, when drivers are paying attention, and know how to drive properly.
justarider

Would rationalization of the traffic lanes through this Intersection be a solution ? or would It cause traffic mayhem.
  Stafford Station Master

Location: Kalgoorlie
Watched a B-double do the turn today. Fair speed (about 30kph).

Start from right lane, full swing around the left. Clean as a whistle, and finished straight as a die.

Put his blinkers on early, and the inside cars held back and gave plenty of room.

No problems at all, when drivers are paying attention, and know how to drive properly.

Would rationalization of the traffic lanes through this Intersection be a solution ? or would It cause traffic mayhem.
Nightfire

I don't think there's any problem with the traffic lanes, what I do know is that many car drivers are ignorant of heavy vehicles and how they have to operate in close confines. This is apparently what caused the second incident at that intersection:



Textbook cornering by the B-double, note how far his dog tri is from the kerb. Unfortunately the car driver didn't seem to either see or understand the 'DO NOT OVERTAKE TURNING VEHICLE' signs on the back of every truck. I'm sure they do now.

Therein lies the problem however, my wife got her licence two years ago and there is nothing - literally nothing - in the driver training about dealing with heavy vehicles on the road. Now, car drivers don't need to know about axle weights and length restrictions, but knowing things like...

  • Truck trailers swing in on corners - hence the sign!
  • Trucks can legally use two lanes when cornering or going round a roundabout.
  • By law trucks are speed limited to 100kph, so don't whinge when they're not doing 110.
  • Truck going up hill goes slow, truck going down hill goes fast, because gravity.
  • Do not stay on the left hand side next to the prime mover, it's a blind spot.
  • Trucks take a lot longer to stop than cars, because weight.


...would prevent incidents like these. I'm sure there's a few more things I wish they'd teach but that's off the top of my head.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Bevans solution to put containers on the train from the docks to the east could work sure, but I doubt it would have the affect he envisions - as a truckie heading from the docks to the eastern suburbs I'd never go via the city hauling a container when Citylink/tunnels/Monash freeway is right there. The only reason a container hauler would be in the city is if it was to be delivered somewhere in that area, probably not in the city itself, but a nearby inner suburb.
Stafford

I just read that Australia has a proportionally higher mix of road freight over rail when compared to other countries.  This is probably even higher in Victoria which is a sign the policy for rail freight has failed.

The issue the monash is not there for placard loads which are and it is high congested with trucks anyway.  Freight forwarders have NO OPTION but to use trucks and that is the problem.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
No problems at all, when drivers are paying attention, and know how to drive properly.
"justarider"
And there you have the problem, which is multi-faceted.
First; driving schools teach people how to get a licence. This is easy because the pupil need never have driven in the dark, in the wet, on a gravel road, or on a freeway at 100 km/h. No training at all in car-handling skills.
Second; driving is the only discipline I know where the incompetent are allowed to teach the innocent. I have first hand knowledge of "mummy" teaching her daughter to drive at 90 km/h in the right lane of a freeway "because it's the safest" FFS.
Then; there's the son who watches and listens to dad, who  is swerving impatiently through traffic, tailgating, swearing and horn blowing at others, and generally road raging to a greater or lesser extent. He is told not to do this when taking his licence test, but no thought at all about how bad dad is behind the wheel, so he ends up doing the same.
"Speed Kills"! . . . the greatest furphy ever perpetrated in the name of road safety, and it's dangerous. It tells a driver that he's driving safely just because he's obeying a speed limit. I'm all for suburban speed limits because of pedestrians and kids in particular, but the limit alone does not constitute safety.
It's driver incompetence that kills, whether induced by drugs or alcohol, or just plain stupidity.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
No problems at all, when drivers are paying attention, and know how to drive properly.
And there you have the problem, which is multi-faceted.
First; driving schools teach people how to get a licence. This is easy because the pupil need never have driven in the dark, in the wet, on a gravel road, or on a freeway at 100 km/h. No training at all in car-handling skills.
Second; driving is the only discipline I know where the incompetent are allowed to teach the innocent. I have first hand knowledge of "mummy" teaching her daughter to drive at 90 km/h in the right lane of a freeway "because it's the safest" FFS.
Then; there's the son who watches and listens to dad, who  is swerving impatiently through traffic, tailgating, swearing and horn blowing at others, and generally road raging to a greater or lesser extent. He is told not to do this when taking his licence test, but no thought at all about how bad dad is behind the wheel, so he ends up doing the same.
"Speed Kills"! . . . the greatest furphy ever perpetrated in the name of road safety, and it's dangerous. It tells a driver that he's driving safely just because he's obeying a speed limit. I'm all for suburban speed limits because of pedestrians and kids in particular, but the limit alone does not constitute safety.
It's driver incompetence that kills, whether induced by drugs or alcohol, or just plain stupidity.
Valvegear
It is a requirement of the Vicroads L plate logbook to do 20 hours of night driving out of the 120 hours (was 10 before 2018, but generally adviseable to go over just in case the Vicroads person strikes entries out). Mind you, it's been 10+ years since I've done my required 120h for the test so I cant quite remember the nuances.

(Just found the requirements for the log book trips: Car details, road, traffic, weather, light conditions and drivers details for each line)

But the second point, my god that is the biggest thing I agree with. Insurance statistics have been shifting to showing that the middle age demographic are the worst drivers on the road, and they're the ones teaching people these days.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
It is a requirement of the Vicroads L plate logbook to do 20 hours of night driving out of the 120 hours (was 10 before 2018, but generally advisable to go over just in case the Vicroads person strikes entries out)
"speedemon08"
Thanks for the update; no gravel roads or freeway speeds?
The idea that they give people a piece of plastic indicating that "now you can drive a car" without training in all conditions should be a criminal offence.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Never drive to the conditions. Stick to the speed limit regardless - rain, hail, shine, sleet, snow, ice, hell or high water.
Never think ahead.
Never look where you are going - just watch the speedo.
Never be patient.
Never consider the other driver.
Never acknowledge a kindness - it is a sign of weakness.
Always fiddle with your phone, or some other distraction fitted to your car for the benefit of a panel beater.

As Valvegear says the system teaches our kids to get their licence not to become drivers. It's the blind leading the blind.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
No problems at all, when drivers are paying attention, and know how to drive properly.
And there you have the problem, which is multi-faceted.
First; driving schools teach people how to get a licence. This is easy because the pupil need never have driven in the dark, in the wet, on a gravel road, or on a freeway at 100 km/h. No training at all in car-handling skills.
Second; driving is the only discipline I know where the incompetent are allowed to teach the innocent. I have first hand knowledge of "mummy" teaching her daughter to drive at 90 km/h in the right lane of a freeway "because it's the safest" FFS.
Then; there's the son who watches and listens to dad, who  is swerving impatiently through traffic, tailgating, swearing and horn blowing at others, and generally road raging to a greater or lesser extent. He is told not to do this when taking his licence test, but no thought at all about how bad dad is behind the wheel, so he ends up doing the same.
"Speed Kills"! . . . the greatest furphy ever perpetrated in the name of road safety, and it's dangerous. It tells a driver that he's driving safely just because he's obeying a speed limit. I'm all for suburban speed limits because of pedestrians and kids in particular, but the limit alone does not constitute safety.
It's driver incompetence that kills, whether induced by drugs or alcohol, or just plain stupidity.
It is a requirement of the Vicroads L plate logbook to do 20 hours of night driving out of the 120 hours (was 10 before 2018, but generally adviseable to go over just in case the Vicroads person strikes entries out). Mind you, it's been 10+ years since I've done my required 120h for the test so I cant quite remember the nuances.

(Just found the requirements for the log book trips: Car details, road, traffic, weather, light conditions and drivers details for each line)

But the second point, my god that is the biggest thing I agree with. Insurance statistics have been shifting to showing that the middle age demographic are the worst drivers on the road, and they're the ones teaching people these days.
speedemon08
It is a requirement to fill in the book to say that you have completed the 120 hours/night driving.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
It is a requirement of the Vicroads L plate logbook to do 20 hours of night driving out of the 120 hours (was 10 before 2018, but generally adviseable to go over just in case the Vicroads person strikes entries out). Mind you, it's been 10+ years since I've done my required 120h for the test so I cant quite remember the nuances.

speedemon08
I remember It being 200 hours back In 1998
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
  • Truck going up hill goes slow, truck going down hill goes fast, because gravity.
Stafford
Funny you should mention that. I don't drive (I do still have a motorcycle license but I don't currently ride) and so I sometimes find myself travelling as a passenger in a car from Melbourne to Castlemaine.

The rollercoaster that is the Calder from Diggers Rest to Gisborne can be very interesting indeed with trucks a plenty. In the past year alone I have had to explain to 2 very experienced drivers that overtaking a truck on an uphill stretch and then pulling in front of them is REALLY annoying to truck drivers who are trying to save a little diesel by getting some speed up on the descent in order to make it easier on the next ascent.

One in particular who hit the panic button when a pair of Kenworth headlights threatened the boot of the car was rather taken aback when I suggested that they to either speed up or pull into the "fast lane" and let the big rig roll on by.

They just don't seem to understand something that to me it is obvious and just plain common sense.
  Tii Junior Train Controller

It isn't a great system even with the log book part, as you can just tick the categories but not necessarily do them. I know some learners fake their hours over a Christmas break driving with 'Nanna' but hopefully that is phased out with the switch to electronic log books. I've been a driving mentor in the Victorian L2P program for over 7 years with 900 hours and about 9 learners followed through to their test.  Working with our professional driving instructor, we try to give the kids a comprehensive experience over the 120 hours on country, freeway, gravel, night, city etc, but it's really up to me to do that as it would be up to a parent.  None of that is checked in the drive test itself and you could just tick the boxes as there is no verification. I can imagine that a learner with their parent might only just drive to the school/shops/nannas over and over again with little other ex-city experience in varying conditions. That would be up to their supervisor (usually mum/dad) with all their bad habits or rule interpretations to pass on. I'm just a substitute parent also in L2P, but mentors receive extra training and we understand the learner need a broad experience during our time together. The test experience concerns me personally as I agree a lot just isn't covered in that 30 minute test and I could easily just do the bits to get through it. it is a possible a drive simulator test will be added in the future, when someone can make it practical, to test scenarios that are difficult to encounter in the drive test- freeway, rain, dark, crash like scenarios. I see that as the next best option as the standard of driving isn't great and as others have commented- people are trained how to pass the test more than what is good comprehensive driving.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Went through the intersection twice this evening.  Returning from Williamstown via Power Street witnessed a b double carrying hay bales issues rounding the corner, there simply is not enough room for this to be done time and time and time again safely.  Why would this truck not use the tunnel?

On the olympic road the Lexus centre has 6 fire trucks and 3 police cars outside the road is blocked now west bound.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
A few things:

As mentioned, that intersection is the gazetted bypass route for any truck that can not go through the tunnels. That is to say, it is the route that is signposted and marked down in every map. Any driver not 100% familiar with Melbourne's roads (more and more drivers these days, thanks to an over-reliance on GPS navigation devices) will go this way if they can not run through the tunnels. Despite the ignorant protests of many on this forum, this route is designed for these trucks.

In regards to the 2nd incident (the car getting jammed under the trailer) these collisions are a fairly common occurance on our roads, they don't just happen here and near on 100% of the time, it is the car driver in the wrong. The fact that it happened on this corner is irrelevant.

We can talk about poor driving standards and dangerous practises in the road transport industry, but fixing those issues (which I 100% agree should be addressed) will not change the fact that trucks will use this route.

News flash

guys You Victorian’s don’t have a minister competent to fix the Southbank truck problem.

Again overnight a car was crushed by a b double truck at that notorious intersection where trucks should be banned.
Your roads minister is in denial and will not listen to calls for trucks to be removed from that route.

A poor woman scared for life and her car crushed and the driver was unaware.
freightgate

Here is a news flash for you: You are wrong.

The car driver should never have been there. Hopefully she learned something from her mistake. Namely: When a truck is turning, give it plenty of space. As for our Ministers, leave that to us, you just worry about yours up there.

Went through the intersection twice this evening. Returning from Williamstown via Power Street witnessed a b double carrying hay bales issues rounding the corner, there simply is not enough room for this to be done time and time and time again safely. Why would this truck not use the tunnel?
bevans

Most likely a height clearance issue. This detour isn't just for placarded loads, but also for over-height vehicles, often Hay trucks are over-height. It is the same reason livestock trucks use this route.

Also, what do you mean with "issues rounding the corner"? Was the driver just being cautious and going a bit slow, or did some numbskull try to pass him on the inside again?

There are other routes available surely or if not then use a smaller truck.
bevans

Smaller trucks means more trucks. I don't know about you, but I don't believe that will fix the issue, if anything it will just compound the problem.

As for an alternate route, there is one: Kingsway + Dandenong Rd. This route is open to all trucks under 4.5m and for many drivers this route is preferred, especially as it avoids the tolls. The main reason most drivers opt for Power St + City Rd is it is much faster. For some drivers, that time can make the difference in whether or not you can get the job done on time or not.

There is also a question mark on whether or not Kingsway + Dandenong Rd is actually any safer or not. These are very busy roads, with some high pedestrian flow intersections so that is up for debate.



One last thing regarding rail port shuttles: Last I looked, this is a free country with a free market. I didn't know the government could force anybody to move their freight by any particular mode. Sure, they can provide incentives and improve the rail option (again, something I 100% agree should be done) but there will still be trucks that need to travel through this part of Melbourne.

That is just a fact.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

As mentioned, that intersection is the gazetted bypass route for any truck that can not go through the tunnels. That is to say, it is the route that is signposted and marked down in every map. Any driver not 100% familiar with Melbourne's roads (more and more drivers these days, thanks to an over-reliance on GPS navigation devices) will go this way if they can not run through the tunnels. Despite the ignorant protests of many on this forum, this route is designed for these trucks.
Gman_86


I'm not certain designed is the right word. The route was "designed" long before B-doubles were around, or at least passing through the city. Maybe designated as the route for these trucks might be more correct?
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
As mentioned, that intersection is the gazetted bypass route for any truck that can not go through the tunnels. That is to say, it is the route that is signposted and marked down in every map. Any driver not 100% familiar with Melbourne's roads (more and more drivers these days, thanks to an over-reliance on GPS navigation devices) will go this way if they can not run through the tunnels. Despite the ignorant protests of many on this forum, this route is designed for these trucks.


I'm not certain designed is the right word. The route was "designed" long before B-doubles were around, or at least passing through the city. Maybe designated as the route for these trucks might be more correct?
duttonbay
I respectfully disagree. B-Doubles have been using that route since before the turn of the millennium and the roads have been re-modelled to a more suitable design since then.

A good indicator of this is the sweeping curve of the kerbside on this particular corner. If it were of a sharper curve as with just about all other corners in the area, B-doubles would not be capable of executing that turn safely. This tells me work has been done to make sure these trucks can use this route.

This is what I mean when I say this route has been designed for these trucks.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

As mentioned, that intersection is the gazetted bypass route for any truck that can not go through the tunnels. That is to say, it is the route that is signposted and marked down in every map. Any driver not 100% familiar with Melbourne's roads (more and more drivers these days, thanks to an over-reliance on GPS navigation devices) will go this way if they can not run through the tunnels. Despite the ignorant protests of many on this forum, this route is designed for these trucks.


I'm not certain designed is the right word. The route was "designed" long before B-doubles were around, or at least passing through the city. Maybe designated as the route for these trucks might be more correct?
I respectfully disagree. B-Doubles have been using that route since before the turn of the millennium and the roads have been re-modelled to a more suitable design since then.

A good indicator of this is the sweeping curve of the kerbside on this particular corner. If it were of a sharper curve as with just about all other corners in the area, B-doubles would not be capable of executing that turn safely. This tells me work has been done to make sure these trucks can use this route.

This is what I mean when I say this route has been designed for these trucks.
Gman_86
Is this the sweeping curve where the truck "ploughed into Melbourne pavement" ??

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