The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
Green electricity is far more credible than clean coal
DirtyBallast
For the record I said nothing about clean coal. I simply don't believe there is a 100% environmentally friendly way to produce electricity. I'm happy to be proved wrong.

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  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Coal will be dead before too long in NSW.

34GW of renewables planned for New England region:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/nsw-stuns-with-34gw-of-wind-solar-proposals-for-new-england-renewable-zone/

And Twiggy's new big gas turbine powerplant at Port Kembla to eventually run on 100% green hydrogen (not the SMR variety) by 2030:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/nsw-fast-tracks-andrew-forrest-backed-gas-hydrogen-port-kembla-power-station/

The rail industry really needs to think of ways to get onboard IMO - ie. Hydrogen powered trains and haulage, before they get left behind.
You need 4GW of solar name plate capacity to supply 1 GW of power 24/7.
RTT_Rules
Actually, you need a lot more than that, some RE clown posted a data set on an anti nuclear energy forum I lurk in a few days ago, showing how well solar was doing in Australia over the last decade. I calculated the capacity factor because frankly the energy production looked way down, and arrived at 12%cf, when I questioned the numbers I was linked to the original data, it was correct.

On that basis I would suggest we need at least 8 1/3 GW of solar nameplate to produce 1 GW over a 24/7 analysis.

I reckon a 2GW nameplate NPP must be close to ‘on par’ with 15GW nameplate of solar in terms of input resources, and it takes up a whole lot less room too!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
A friend sent me a photo of a petrol powered roadside assist vehicle towing a diesel powered generator which was in turn charging a stationery EV. The caption said: "The future is stupid".

Anyone who believes in "green electricity" is delusional at best.
Graham4405

Nobody in their right mind would drive a conventionally powered car with a risk of running out of fuel. Same with an EV.

M.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
Green electricity is far more credible than clean coal
For the record I said nothing about clean coal. I simply don't believe there is a 100% environmentally friendly way to produce electricity. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Graham4405
Think of it this way. Focus on the fuel being used to generate the electricity. There is no possible way that wind and light is not 100% environmentally friendly.

There will always be the argument put forward by the anti-renewable brigade that the construction of solar panels and wind turbines requires processes that damage the environment, but that is a mute point because the same applies to the construction of those fossil fuel burning behemoths known as power stations.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
A friend sent me a photo of a petrol powered roadside assist vehicle towing a diesel powered generator which was in turn charging a stationery EV. The caption said: "The future is stupid".

Anyone who believes in "green electricity" is delusional at best.
Graham4405
Finally something on which we agree.

There's another picture purportedly from somewhere in regional South Australia with a Tesla being charged by a diesel generator. I mean c'mon, there's no way in hell that would be an efficient use of diesel - there'd be heaps of that energy lost in comparison to an efficient turbo diesel.

China and India aren't even going to the next 'carbon conference' thing in Scotland, they can't be bothered and they're not even pretending to care any more. So why should we?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Green electricity is far more credible than clean coal
For the record I said nothing about clean coal. I simply don't believe there is a 100% environmentally friendly way to produce electricity. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Think of it this way. Focus on the fuel being used to generate the electricity. There is no possible way that wind and light is not 100% environmentally friendly.

There will always be the argument put forward by the anti-renewable brigade that the construction of solar panels and wind turbines requires processes that damage the environment, but that is a mute point because the same applies to the construction of those fossil fuel burning behemoths known as power stations.
DirtyBallast
"Moot" point, not "mute".

Solar panels are full of deadly heavy metals that can't be removed or reprocessed without a hell of a lot of fossil fuels to burn them off. Solar in particular is really bad for the environment when you factor in all the poisons put into them AND the fact that they have to be stored like nuclear waste above ground once they're life-expired.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
However right now the road side assist is probably real and a question to @Graham4405, what is wrong with that?
Did I say there was something wrong with it? I simply mentioned a photo that was sent to me. I thought it was funny.
Graham4405
Fair enough.

TBH, if the brains trust out there think of EV's as only there to reduce CO2 then the whole technology has been lost of them and not worth the discussion.

For me the biggest advantages are
1) Significant reduction in road noise
2) Ability by those who can and choose to fuel their own car from their homes.
3) Simplier and far more reliable motoringwith far less dependency on servicing.
4) Improved air quality in built up areas
5) Reduction in imported oil from middle east.

These are the reasons I will buy a EV, the CO2 benefit I see as questionable but it is lower, even if you need to recharge it once in a while with a diesel genset
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
There will always be the argument put forward by the anti-renewable brigade that the construction of solar panels and wind turbines requires processes that damage the environment, but that is a mute moot point because the same applies to the construction of those fossil fuel burning behemoths known as power stations.
DirtyBallast

I'm not anti-renewable, but of course construction methods also need to be green, otherwise what is the point? For the record, this "renewable" thing is also garbage. Oil, gas and coal will always be "produced" by the same natural method that the oil and coal we are using now was "produced", and as such are renewable. Plus, it's all natural fuel provided by our planet, how much greener can you get than that? Wink
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
For me the biggest advantages are
1) Significant reduction in road noise
2) ...
3) ...
4) ...
5) ...
RTT_Rules

With the subsequent increase in pedestrian and animal deaths because they didn't hear it coming... Wink
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
For me the biggest advantages are
1) Significant reduction in road noise
2) ...
3) ...
4) ...
5) ...

With the subsequent increase in pedestrian and animal deaths because they didn't hear it coming... Wink
Graham4405
Quote from the 1900's when trams replaced horses?

Noise generators are now legally required in EV's in the EU and others up to around 30-40km/h to protect pedestrian's. Tyre noise at 60-100 km/h is same as petrol at 60-100 km/h. Hard acceleration in city streets, Hoon's engine reving and burn outs in suburban streets is heart of the issue. I've lived near a few to know the problems all too well.

I'm not one for the cafe lifestyle and never thought sitting sipping coffee and cake on the side of a busy street with cars flying past along with noise and emissions is actually desirable atmosphere but it is popular and growing in popularity. I'm sure however a reduction in both engine noise and tail pipe emissions will however improve everyone's health long term.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
Green electricity is far more credible than clean coal
For the record I said nothing about clean coal. I simply don't believe there is a 100% environmentally friendly way to produce electricity. I'm happy to be proved wrong.
Think of it this way. Focus on the fuel being used to generate the electricity. There is no possible way that wind and light is not 100% environmentally friendly.

There will always be the argument put forward by the anti-renewable brigade that the construction of solar panels and wind turbines requires processes that damage the environment, but that is a mute point because the same applies to the construction of those fossil fuel burning behemoths known as power stations.
"Moot" point, not "mute".

Solar panels are full of deadly heavy metals that can't be removed or reprocessed without a hell of a lot of fossil fuels to burn them off. Solar in particular is really bad for the environment when you factor in all the poisons put into them AND the fact that they have to be stored like nuclear waste above ground once they're life-expired.
don_dunstan
Yes, moot, my bad.

But all you have done here is proven my point that because you cannot argue against the greenness of wind and light when they are used as fuel, you then focus on the manufacturing process of the hardware instead. And you still ignore the nasties lurking within and emitting from coal fired power stations for comparative purposes.

Sites such as electricitymap.org do compare the carbon intensity of different electricity production techniques and as far as I am aware they are all inclusive figures. Solar comes in at 45g CO2 equivalent per kwh, wind 11 and hydro 24. So yes, technically not 100% green, but the figure for coal is 820!
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
There will always be the argument put forward by the anti-renewable brigade that the construction of solar panels and wind turbines requires processes that damage the environment, but that is a mute moot point because the same applies to the construction of those fossil fuel burning behemoths known as power stations.

I'm not anti-renewable, but of course construction methods also need to be green, otherwise what is the point? For the record, this "renewable" thing is also garbage. Oil, gas and coal will always be "produced" by the same natural method that the oil and coal we are using now was "produced", and as such are renewable. Plus, it's all natural fuel provided by our planet, how much greener can you get than that? Wink
Graham4405
Yes, naturally produced fossil fuels are 100% green.....until you burn them!Laughing
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
In yet another kick in the guts of our resident climate change denier/s, todays Age reports.

Mike.

[size=2][font=Segoe UI]Grid powers on despite demise of coal[/font][/size]

Australia’s power grid is set up to cope with coal’s continued decline over the next decade, the market operator said, even as a flood of cheap electricity from solar and wind farms undercuts traditional power plants’ profits.
Fossil fuel-based generators have been under financial pressure over the past year as renewables drive down daytime power prices to levels where coal and gas struggle to compete.
South Australia’s Victoria’s Yallourn Power Station is set to shut four years early in 2028, one unit at NSW’s Eraring Power Station will shut in 2030, and South Australia’s Torrens Island B gas plant is set to mothball one unit next month.
State and federal governments are working on contingency plans for more early power plant closures amid concerns sudden exits could disrupt electricity supply.
The influx of wind and solar power, coupled with the boom in rooftop solar and investment in new transmission lines, is expected to fill the void because it will be backed by investment in dispatchable power projects – providing ondemand energy from new gas, batteries or pumped hydropower.
‘‘Over the next five years we’ve got sufficient supply to meet the required reliability standards,’’ the Australian Energy Market Operator’s (AEMO) chief executive Daniel Westerman said, noting that power projects in the pipeline were progressing well.
The market operator forecasts rooftop solar would continue its boom and by 2026 could meet 77 per cent of daytime grid power demand, eroding the business cases for traditional power plants.
‘‘Australia’s love of rooftop solar is going as strong as ever, so the minimum operational demand is likely to cause us the biggest challenges by 2025,’’ Mr Westerman said.
‘‘Without additional operational tools, we may no longer be able to operate the (electricity market) securely in all periods from 2025 due to a lack of security services when demand from the grid is so low.’’
A reform being investigated by state and federal governments may help address this, Mr Westerman said. Under the proposal for a ‘‘capacity mechanism’’, retailers would pay generators to guarantee future supply by remaining in the grid or investing in new assets.
AEMO’s latest upgrade has also lifted expectations for renewables penetration into the grid.
‘‘Australia’s energy transition really does continue at pace and now our base case forecast by 2025 is the national electricity market can be supplied by 100 per cent renewable energy,’’ he said.
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

For me the biggest advantages are
1) Significant reduction in road noise
2) ...
3) ...
4) ...
5) ...

With the subsequent increase in pedestrian and animal deaths because they didn't hear it coming... Wink
Quote from the 1900's when trams replaced horses?

Noise generators are now legally required in EV's in the EU and others up to around 30-40km/h to protect pedestrian's. Tyre noise at 60-100 km/h is same as petrol at 60-100 km/h. Hard acceleration in city streets, Hoon's engine reving and burn outs in suburban streets is heart of the issue. I've lived near a few to know the problems all too well.

I'm not one for the cafe lifestyle and never thought sitting sipping coffee and cake on the side of a busy street with cars flying past along with noise and emissions is actually desirable atmosphere but it is popular and growing in popularity. I'm sure however a reduction in both engine noise and tail pipe emissions will however improve everyone's health long term.
RTT_Rules
If you listen carefully to a lot recent model petrol cars the only noise you can hear when they're coasting at low, 10-40, speeds it tyre noise. There something wrong with the whole "make electric cars noisy" movement.
  apw5910 Chief Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
I want an electric car that sounds like a thumping big V8 under the hood. Or maybe a GM in full dynamic.
  303gunner Train Controller

I want an electric car that sounds like a thumping big V8 under the hood. Or maybe a GM in full dynamic.
apw5910
If it's electric, why not have a DCC Chip with a soundfile of 3801?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
In yet another kick in the guts of our resident climate change denier/s, todays Age reports.

Mike.

[size=2][font=Segoe UI]Grid powers on despite demise of coal[/font][/size]

Australia’s power grid is set up to cope with coal’s continued decline over the next decade, the market operator said, even as a flood of cheap electricity from solar and wind farms undercuts traditional power plants’ profits.
Fossil fuel-based generators have been under financial pressure over the past year as renewables drive down daytime power prices to levels where coal and gas struggle to compete.
South Australia’s Victoria’s Yallourn Power Station is set to shut four years early in 2028, one unit at NSW’s Eraring Power Station will shut in 2030, and South Australia’s Torrens Island B gas plant is set to mothball one unit next month.
State and federal governments are working on contingency plans for more early power plant closures amid concerns sudden exits could disrupt electricity supply.
The influx of wind and solar power, coupled with the boom in rooftop solar and investment in new transmission lines, is expected to fill the void because it will be backed by investment in dispatchable power projects – providing ondemand energy from new gas, batteries or pumped hydropower.
‘‘Over the next five years we’ve got sufficient supply to meet the required reliability standards,’’ the Australian Energy Market Operator’s (AEMO) chief executive Daniel Westerman said, noting that power projects in the pipeline were progressing well.
The market operator forecasts rooftop solar would continue its boom and by 2026 could meet 77 per cent of daytime grid power demand, eroding the business cases for traditional power plants.
‘‘Australia’s love of rooftop solar is going as strong as ever, so the minimum operational demand is likely to cause us the biggest challenges by 2025,’’ Mr Westerman said.
‘‘Without additional operational tools, we may no longer be able to operate the (electricity market) securely in all periods from 2025 due to a lack of security services when demand from the grid is so low.’’
A reform being investigated by state and federal governments may help address this, Mr Westerman said. Under the proposal for a ‘‘capacity mechanism’’, retailers would pay generators to guarantee future supply by remaining in the grid or investing in new assets.
AEMO’s latest upgrade has also lifted expectations for renewables penetration into the grid.
‘‘Australia’s energy transition really does continue at pace and now our base case forecast by 2025 is the national electricity market can be supplied by 100 per cent renewable energy,’’ he said.
The Vinelander
At the moment on a typical evening 80% of the NEM on the eastern seaboard is being supplied by black and brown coal.

The people in that story are just as delusional as you are if you think that this capacity can be erased within four years.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Yes, moot, my bad.

But all you have done here is proven my point that because you cannot argue against the greenness of wind and light when they are used as fuel, you then focus on the manufacturing process of the hardware instead. And you still ignore the nasties lurking within and emitting from coal fired power stations for comparative purposes.

Sites such as electricitymap.org do compare the carbon intensity of different electricity production techniques and as far as I am aware they are all inclusive figures. Solar comes in at 45g CO2 equivalent per kwh, wind 11 and hydro 24. So yes, technically not 100% green, but the figure for coal is 820!
DirtyBallast
We can employ all the expensive solar panels, turbines and batteries we like but the fact is that for the evening peak we will still be mostly dependent on black and brown coal for at least the next decade, if not forever. And to modify the grid to accommodate all these extra sources of power is going to cost around a hundred billion - I've cited the links for this earlier in this thread.

Who pays? The very poorest grid-captive Australians (yet again)? More off-shoring of jobs and industry due to extreme electricity prices?
  apw5910 Chief Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
I want an electric car that sounds like a thumping big V8 under the hood. Or maybe a GM in full dynamic.
If it's electric, why not have a DCC Chip with a soundfile of 3801?
303gunner
Now you're just being silly.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yes, moot, my bad.

But all you have done here is proven my point that because you cannot argue against the greenness of wind and light when they are used as fuel, you then focus on the manufacturing process of the hardware instead. And you still ignore the nasties lurking within and emitting from coal fired power stations for comparative purposes.

Sites such as electricitymap.org do compare the carbon intensity of different electricity production techniques and as far as I am aware they are all inclusive figures. Solar comes in at 45g CO2 equivalent per kwh, wind 11 and hydro 24. So yes, technically not 100% green, but the figure for coal is 820!
We can employ all the expensive solar panels, turbines and batteries we like but the fact is that for the evening peak we will still be mostly dependent on black and brown coal for at least the next decade, if not forever. And to modify the grid to accommodate all these extra sources of power is going to cost around a hundred billion - I've cited the links for this earlier in this thread.

Who pays? The very poorest grid-captive Australians (yet again)? More off-shoring of jobs and industry due to extreme electricity prices?
don_dunstan

Has anyone over the last 12 years ever said we will not be dependent on coal for at least the next 20 years?

While I agree that most of the inroads of RE into the grid has mostly been during the daylight hours over the last 10 years and for at least the next 5 years there will only minor improvement, things will and are changing.

Prior to the first wind turbine and solar, coal contribution was around 85% in 2009, its now 65% and surprise wholesale prices are similar, although there was alot of poor decisions along the way but mostly overcome and hence the grid supply and pricing has stabiised.

As Battery, Snowy 2.0 and a few other pumped hyro start to kick in from around 2023-2025, coal's night time contribution will start to decline and hence why the forecast for the two coal power stations expected to close in 2028 is expected to be brought forward by 1-2 years.

As for off-shoring jobs, while whole sale prices are where they are now around (US$ 35-40 / MWh), Australia will not be loosing jobs to off-shore due to power prices. Hell even the Australian aluminium sector has started to consider investing with an expansion study currently under way and off-line capacity at Boyne likely to be brought back on by the end of the year.  Tomago has recenty signd an agreement to be supplied mostly wind and solar by 2029 with hydro and SCOMO's gas turbine and other gas turbines as a back stop. There is also a shortage of skills in the Aluminium and other heavy industry sectors in Australia and they are again looking OS to fill the gaps.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
At the moment on a typical evening 80% of the NEM on the eastern seaboard is being supplied by black and brown coal.

The people in that story are just as delusional as you are if you think that this capacity can be erased within four years.
don_dunstan
On a typical evening its actually ~73% and peaks occasionally closer to 80%, it happens around 3-330 am most mornigs and lasts for about 1-2 h. Thoses peaking nights typically have low grid demand due to mild temps where basically the grid demand drops to the minimum turn down of the coal power stations.  

This is the same issue facing the AEMO during the day with so much solar so the solar and RE input is increasingly being moderated to ensure the coal turbines are comfortably above their min trip as stop - start during the day isn't viable. When Liddel closes next year this issue will for now partly evaporate until RE growth again catches up. In both cases the push is on for more storage.

BTW, the issue is hardly new, it was a problem in the days before coal, hence the use of off-peak and pumped back hydro and when that wasn't enough they just vented steam.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If you listen carefully to a lot recent model petrol cars the only noise you can hear when they're coasting at low, 10-40, speeds it tyre noise. There something wrong with the whole "make electric cars noisy" movement.
Madjikthise
I know, its BS which is why I don't think it will see global roll out. The AC system on a Tesla is just as noisey as my Diesel Ranger AC and the predominate noise. The other issue is are the EV's too quiet or is it that we are just dumbed into hearing cars with excessive noise?

But its not engine noise moving at slow speeds, its the hard acceleration etc that is what I was mostly refering too. Anyone living near a main road junction or roundabout will know what i mean. Over the years I've lived in a few suburban areas that 95% of the time is pleaant apart from people rushing off from a standing start or hoons.

Anyway, I'll say it here for the record. By 2030 there will gated communities and other where it can be enforced only EV zones for noise purposes.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Those with roof solar should start thinking of changing their hot water system from "off peak" overnight heating to daytime heating and using the surplus power they are generating.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
We can employ all the expensive solar panels, turbines and batteries we like but the fact is that for the evening peak we will still be mostly dependent on black and brown coal for at least the next decade, if not forever. And to modify the grid to accommodate all these extra sources of power is going to cost around a hundred billion - I've cited the links for this earlier in this thread.

Who pays? The very poorest grid-captive Australians (yet again)? More off-shoring of jobs and industry due to extreme electricity prices?
don_dunstan

So, to quote your hero President, the above article is 'Fake News'.

Dilemma, who would I rather get my energy advice from Question

1. the Australian Energy Market Operator - AEMO.

2. Some random, climate change denying right winger in SA.

Such a dilemma.

Mike.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
Those with roof solar should start thinking of changing their hot water system from "off peak" overnight heating to daytime heating and using the surplus power they are generating.
Donald
My hot water is heated on demand by gas...

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