The Folly of High Speed Rail in NSW

 
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
"Faster rail" in just under 2 hours.

Current record holder 3801 will do the trick...


https://youtu.be/VdLh1P8tky8

As much as I like this video, yes, definitely the old 3801 is going to cover Central to Newcastle in under 2 hours as it has been sped up around 50% faster than real time.

Mike.
The Vinelander
What exactly do you mean by that?  Are you suggesting that the record is a myth?  Nonetheless, the record still stands.

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  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
As much as I like this video, yes, definitely the old 3801 is going to cover Central to Newcastle in under 2 hours as it has been sped up around 50% faster than real time.

Mike.
What exactly do you mean by that?  Are you suggesting that the record is a myth?  Nonetheless, the record still stands.
Transtopic
Nah I think he's trying to say that the clip that accompanied the text was shot with an under-cranking camera so the train looks much faster than it really was. Nothing to do with the record or the locomotive itself.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
As much as I like this video, yes, definitely the old 3801 is going to cover Central to Newcastle in under 2 hours as it has been sped up around 50% faster than real time.

Mike.
What exactly do you mean by that?  Are you suggesting that the record is a myth?  Nonetheless, the record still stands.
Nah I think he's trying to say that the clip that accompanied the text was shot with an under-cranking camera so the train looks much faster than it really was. Nothing to do with the record or the locomotive itself.
don_dunstan

Agreed.
  viaprojects Assistant Commissioner

time for another 3801 speed run ..or will track repairs cost too much to better the old 3801 time ...

would like to know if the system has slowed the trains or we have a track issue ..
  UpperQuad Locomotive Fireman

Location: 184.8 miles to Sydney
time for another 3801 speed run ..or will track repairs cost too much to better the old 3801 time ...
would like to know if the system has slowed the trains or we have a track issue ..
viaprojects
There is a major track issue between Wickham and Newcastle.
  viaprojects Assistant Commissioner

time for another 3801 speed run ..or will track repairs cost too much to better the old 3801 time ...
would like to know if the system has slowed the trains or we have a track issue ..
There is a major track issue between Wickham and Newcastle.
UpperQuad
the driver can take a taxi from wickham to the finish line ...Smile
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
3801 has had its full boiler pressure restored with its recent overhaul and with the track upgrades since the original record, it would give that record a run for its money, allowing of course for the shorter distance from Wickham to Central.  The only problem may be that it would have to ignore current speed boards which have been downgraded in recent years.  It would also be interesting to see how the XPT would perform if its potential was unleashed.
  a6et Minister for Railways

3801 has had its full boiler pressure restored with its recent overhaul and with the track upgrades since the original record, it would give that record a run for its money, allowing of course for the shorter distance from Wickham to Central.  The only problem may be that it would have to ignore current speed boards which have been downgraded in recent years.  It would also be interesting to see how the XPT would perform if its potential was unleashed.
Transtopic
I understand that 3801 has a Hasler speed recorder fitted, along with the usual tape inside, unless there is an exemption applied, which I doubt would be allowed it would be limited to track speed and max or 7Omph.
  viaprojects Assistant Commissioner

3801 has had its full boiler pressure restored with its recent overhaul and with the track upgrades since the original record, it would give that record a run for its money, allowing of course for the shorter distance from Wickham to Central.  The only problem may be that it would have to ignore current speed boards which have been downgraded in recent years.  It would also be interesting to see how the XPT would perform if its potential was unleashed.
Transtopic
+1 would like to see a modern set do the task without the limits .. XPT at it's current age maybe an issue ..
  PeeJay Junior Train Controller

Location: Riverstone NSW
time for another 3801 speed run ..or will track repairs cost too much to better the old 3801 time ...

would like to know if the system has slowed the trains or we have a track issue ..
viaprojects

Track is significantly better now, but the amount of paperwork required to do such a thing would be mindboggling!
  viaprojects Assistant Commissioner

the amount of paperwork required to do such a thing would be mindboggling!
PeeJay


not really... for a restored NSW heritage item running on NSW track ..  anyway the NSW Gov would like to see the loco running ..
  PeeJay Junior Train Controller

Location: Riverstone NSW

not really... for a restored NSW heritage item running on NSW track ..  anyway the NSW Gov would like to see the loco running ..
viaprojects


They would need a full possession of the entire line for starters. You can't just suspend every rule in existence like you could back in the day. They would likely also need an engineering report to determine what speed the infrastructure could handle. Then the equipment owners would need to agree to it. Then a full inspection would need to be done after to make sure there was no damage. And so on, and so on.

Running, yes. At high speeds? Never again. Unless the loco is re-accredited for XPT speeds Smile
Perhaps a TOC waiver could be issued for a short speed run on a low risk area, but I don't know enough about the legalities to say for sure.
  viaprojects Assistant Commissioner




They would need a full possession of the entire line for starters.
PeeJay


not really .. theirs a bit more track added .. afik it was two sections for the last run with gosford being the mid point ..



Running, yes. At high speeds? Never again. Unless the loco is re-accredited for XPT speeds Smile
.
PeeJay


would assume new accreditation is issued with the amount of work done .. 3801 was restored to full service .. ie just doing the speed run at 3801 speeds or better ..
  BaysideManny Chief Train Controller

Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese has used a speech in Newcastle to dangle the prospect of fast rail to voters ahead of the upcoming federal election.
They've been promising something every three or four years since the turn of the century and nothing ever comes of it.

Rumour has it on Twitter that the federally-provided $500,000,000 is just to keep the RTBU happy when the new intercity fleet goes to driver-only operation (extended on-platform video surveillance equipment that the driver can monitor in-cab).

That is interesting.  For those wanting more info https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/labor-promises-500m-for-sydneynewcastle-fast-rail

Personally we need to get on with building Geelong to Melbourne and then perhaps Canberra to Sydney.
bevans
Personally we need to get on with building Geelong to Melbourne

No we don't. Geelong is less than 90 km from Melbourne.

then perhaps Canberra to Sydney.

More justifiable then from Melbourne to Geelong. Although the route goes through some rough Terrain, and would prove difficult to straighten alignments.

Mannie
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Personally we need to get on with building Geelong to Melbourne

No we don't. Geelong is less than 90 km from Melbourne.

then perhaps Canberra to Sydney.

More justifiable then from Melbourne to Geelong. Although the route goes through some rough Terrain, and would prove difficult to straighten alignments.

Mannie
BaysideManny

Wrong. Geelong is only 90km's from Melbourne and this rail service should already be electrified with electric vlo's running on it at relatively cheap cost. Sydney to Canberra HSR on the other hand is a $30-50 billion project that isn't necessary and again doesn't solve the rail freight issue. Any new alignment south west of Sydney must be built to handle 1800m freight trains as well as XPT's, Xplorers and their replacements.
  BaysideManny Chief Train Controller

Personally we need to get on with building Geelong to Melbourne

No we don't. Geelong is less than 90 km from Melbourne.

then perhaps Canberra to Sydney.

More justifiable then from Melbourne to Geelong. Although the route goes through some rough Terrain, and would prove difficult to straighten alignments.

Mannie

Wrong. Geelong is only 90km's from Melbourne and this rail service should already be electrified with electric vlo's running on it at relatively cheap cost. Sydney to Canberra HSR on the other hand is a $30-50 billion project that isn't necessary and again doesn't solve the rail freight issue. Any new alignment south west of Sydney must be built to handle 1800m freight trains as well as XPT's, Xplorers and their replacements.
simstrain
Sims, Bevans was referring to fast rail, not just electrification. I agree with you. Victoria is way behind NSW in insisting that anything outside the Greater Melbourne area should be operated by Diesel Trains.

Secondly. Who is advocating for HSR Sydney to Canberra? I'm certainly not.  I was saying that HSR would be more justifiable for Syd-Can than to Mel-Gee. Both would be stupid. I am talking about straightening curves to allow for faster operation for freight and passenger operations.


Mannie
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
What Canberra needs is an actual rail connection to Sydney. Not a single track line with a frequency measured on one hand, to a train station that's in the middle of nowhere. HSR isn't necessary, but any improvement at all is.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

What Canberra needs is an actual rail connection to Sydney. Not a single track line with a frequency measured on one hand, to a train station that's in the middle of nowhere. HSR isn't necessary, but any improvement at all is.
alleve

Canberra station really isn't in the middle of nowhere. It's funny that Canberra doesn't have any significant bus services to either it's airport or the train station. Add in the lack of services and the legacy nature of a rail line that was never completed and this is what you end up with in Canberra.
  viaprojects Assistant Commissioner

What Canberra needs is an actual rail connection to Sydney. Not a single track line with a frequency measured on one hand, to a train station that's in the middle of nowhere. HSR isn't necessary, but any improvement at all is.

Canberra station really isn't in the middle of nowhere. It's funny that Canberra doesn't have any significant bus services to either it's airport or the train station. Add in the lack of services and the legacy nature of a rail line that was never completed and this is what you end up with in Canberra.
simstrain
all rail projects stop when started by the state gov .. would guess sydney metro  construction will stop short ..
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
In all seriousness, if they can't get Canberra-Sydney down to 2.5 or 3 hours (max) then there's something seriously wrong. Would also benefit the towns en route, doesn't have to be a super-fast service as Victoria has shown - just frequent and reliable.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

In all seriousness, if they can't get Canberra-Sydney down to 2.5 or 3 hours (max) then there's something seriously wrong. Would also benefit the towns en route, doesn't have to be a super-fast service as Victoria has shown - just frequent and reliable.
don_dunstan
The Hume Freeway was built to a high standard and the highway from the freeway into Canberra is pretty good too. To my mind road will always win over rail on this corridor. A fortune has ben spent the the above roadworks and spending money on a semi-fast rail system is not warranted.

Besides the politicians get free business class flights and the plebs take a coach. Most the remaining drive.

Forget about passenger rail but spend lots of money upgrading the rail freight system.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
In all seriousness, if they can't get Canberra-Sydney down to 2.5 or 3 hours (max) then there's something seriously wrong. Would also benefit the towns en route, doesn't have to be a super-fast service as Victoria has shown - just frequent and reliable.
The Hume Freeway was built to a high standard and the highway from the freeway into Canberra is pretty good too. To my mind road will always win over rail on this corridor. A fortune has ben spent the the above roadworks and spending money on a semi-fast rail system is not warranted.

Besides the politicians get free business class flights and the plebs take a coach. Most the remaining drive.

Forget about passenger rail but spend lots of money upgrading the rail freight system.
nswtrains
A serious upgrade to Medium Speed Rail standard to get it down to a 2.5 to 3 hour journey time, which is quite achievable, would make it very competitive with car and coach travel and with the prospect of greater frequency.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

In all seriousness, if they can't get Canberra-Sydney down to 2.5 or 3 hours (max) then there's something seriously wrong. Would also benefit the towns en route, doesn't have to be a super-fast service as Victoria has shown - just frequent and reliable.
don_dunstan

And how are you going to do that without building a whole lot of new expensive infrastructure. The Hume highway has at least 5 significant bridges that cross huge valleys to take it's alignment. This ain't no flat track like it is to Geelong or north of Adelaide. Look at the rail to the south of Adelaide as it has to climb and then imagine having to do that over 100km's.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
This is going to upset the naysayers and the wet blanket brigade. Smile
A new report:

A high speed-rail network on the east coast of Australia could boost land value and property prices around high-speed stations by up to $140 billion, preliminary research suggests.
Professor Christopher Pettit

The growth in land value could be used to fund the high speed rail projects and support the creation of more liveable cities and regions, an investigation [color=#0000ee]report from the University of NSW, based on  a combination of infrastructure and planning-related value uplift calculations, has found.[/color]



https://www.governmentnews.com.au/research-finds-140b-case-for-high-speed-rail/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter%2004032022&utm_content=Newsletter%2004032022+CID_c58c82a14848fe89993f68a087c3cfde&utm_source=Campaign%20Monitor&utm_term=Research%20finds%20140b%20case%20for%20high-speed%20rail

Mike.
  TomBTR Chief Train Controller

Location: near Sydney
The original report is interesting: https://cityfutures.ada.unsw.edu.au/documents/677/HSR_Value_Uplift_City_Futures_Final_report-220209.pdf

The numbers do add up, however the fact that in this country the costs,  revenue and benefits would be shared unequally by the three levels of government as well as by the population, means that building such a line here is less likely than in Europe or China etc.

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