What of the Mt Isa to Tennant Creek railway

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The redundancy out of the Northern Territory should be a priority even with a BOG at mount isa. Could be used for a traffic pattern from northern Queensland to Adelaide and WA.

The feds are about to waste $1.5b on a nee gas power plant in NSW without a viable business case.
freightgate

Redundency for a line already struggling to generate sufficent tonnages would not be deemed intellegent spending of taxpayer money.

It would be cheaper to have a heavy lift helicopter on stand-by

There is minimal traffic volumes from CQ/NQ to Adelaide and WA and those are currently viable by Brisbane and the existing SG network with the Inland to provide a further boost.

The gas power station is really a seperate topic, but consider what happens when yuo remove a base load power station and replace it with intermittant supply for which you have no control of when its generated regardless of how cheap it is, whats the bridge between that and living in the 18th century?

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  justapassenger Minister for Railways

There’s also the problem that you can’t make a case for Mt Isa to Tennant Creek based on redundancy because it would use the same route north of Tennant Creek. Historically this part of the route is very prone  to weather disruption, commonly minor but occasionally major.

Real redundancy requires doing what the ADF does for NT logistics - they use multiple modes, which allows rail to be part of the solution but not exclusively so.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville

Not so much traffic volumes rather optionality and redundancy into and out of the Northern Territory.There's no appetite amongst our political leaders, nor the corporate sector, to pay for optionality and redundancy these days.
Lockspike

There never was.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There’s also the problem that you can’t make a case for Mt Isa to Tennant Creek based on redundancy because it would use the same route north of Tennant Creek. Historically this part of the route is very prone  to weather disruption, commonly minor but occasionally major.

Real redundancy requires doing what the ADF does for NT logistics - they use multiple modes, which allows rail to be part of the solution but not exclusively so.
justapassenger
A media release this morning that WA govt will temproarly allow tripple road trains. Which as much as none of us like trucks on highways is the most logical and practical over 2ndry railway corridors that are not justified for the rmaining 9.99 years in every decade or a coastal shipping industry which died its own natural death in part due to the growth of interstate rail (and road) freight and ongoing port industrial issues driving up costs and delays.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There’s also the problem that you can’t make a case for Mt Isa to Tennant Creek based on redundancy because it would use the same route north of Tennant Creek. Historically this part of the route is very prone  to weather disruption, commonly minor but occasionally major.

Real redundancy requires doing what the ADF does for NT logistics - they use multiple modes, which allows rail to be part of the solution but not exclusively so.
A media release this morning that WA govt will temproarly allow tripple road trains. Which as much as none of us like trucks on highways is the most logical and practical over 2ndry railway corridors that are not justified for the rmaining 9.99 years in every decade or a coastal shipping industry which died its own natural death in part due to the growth of interstate rail (and road) freight and ongoing port industrial issues driving up costs and delays.
RTT_Rules

Happens when you have a national single point of failure.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There’s also the problem that you can’t make a case for Mt Isa to Tennant Creek based on redundancy because it would use the same route north of Tennant Creek. Historically this part of the route is very prone  to weather disruption, commonly minor but occasionally major.

Real redundancy requires doing what the ADF does for NT logistics - they use multiple modes, which allows rail to be part of the solution but not exclusively so.
A media release this morning that WA govt will temproarly allow tripple road trains. Which as much as none of us like trucks on highways is the most logical and practical over 2ndry railway corridors that are not justified for the rmaining 9.99 years in every decade or a coastal shipping industry which died its own natural death in part due to the growth of interstate rail (and road) freight and ongoing port industrial issues driving up costs and delays.

Happens when you have a national single point of failure.
bevans

...and, so?

Darwin/NT is a population of around 150,000/0.25m  how many 3000 km long railways do we build to ensure a 1/100 year event is not an issue.

Perth is population 2m 3000km away from anything else of significance. If you were to build a 2nd railway it would be over mostly the same ground.

Before dropping $5B on the table to duplicate these already under uterlised lines, think what else could we spend that money on railway wise?
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner


Not so much traffic volumes rather optionality and redundancy into and out of the Northern Territory.There's no appetite amongst our political leaders, nor the corporate sector, to pay for optionality and redundancy these days.

If it doesn't represent immediate meaningful dividends to the shareholders it won't happen.
There never was.
bingley hall
True, building in redundancy wasn't an objective. Rather, railways were built to serve the influential graziers and farmers.
  Bulbous Deputy Commissioner

A media release this morning that WA govt will temproarly allow tripple road trains. Which as much as none of us like trucks on highways is the most logical and practical over 2ndry railway corridors that are not justified for the rmaining 9.99 years in every decade or a coastal shipping industry which died its own natural death in part due to the growth of interstate rail (and road) freight and ongoing port industrial issues driving up costs and delays.
RTT_Rules


The main issue with the 'temporary' allowance of triples is that with Main Roads WA, once the foot is in the door, it is very unlikely it leaves again.

I live near Greenmount Hill, and have noticed in the last twelve months that there are more double road trains sneaking up there after hours, then lately during daylight hours. It turns out that whilst the approval maps for Restricted Access Vehicles (RAV's) show a RAV 4 being the largest vehicle allowed up Greenmount Hill to Northam (under 27.5m road trains, so pockets for quarry works), Main Roads have now permitted a substantial amount of RAV 5 and RAV 6 vehicles to use the route. This was done quietly, and has been denied previously in local group meetings to discuss heavy vehicle movements, so I don't expect that the 'temporary' allowance for triples over the border is in any way temporary.

Cheers,

Matt
  WimbledonW Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
A problem with a Mt Isa to Tennant Creek is what gauge to use? 1435mm or 1067mm or dual gauge.

The newish Talgo RD Gauge Change system offers a different solution named Gauge Change Dual Gauge bogies.

The gauge of the MI to TC would then be 1435mm with GC fitted as required.

GC on livestock wagons extends their read into NT and NSW and  beyond.

See https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2249402.htm#2249402 .

See https://www.railpage.com.au/f-po-editpost-2249407.htm .

See https://cmc.nt.gov.au/advancing-industry/mt-isa-to-tennant-creek-railway CMC MI-TC; no mention of gauge.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
A problem with a Mt Isa to Tennant Creek is what gauge to use? 1435mm or 1067mm or dual gauge.

The newish Talgo RD Gauge Change system offers a different solution named Gauge Change Dual Gauge bogies.

The gauge of the MI to TC would then be 1435mm with GC fitted as required.

GC on livestock wagons extends their read into NT and NSW and  beyond.

See https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2249402.htm#2249402 .

See https://www.railpage.com.au/f-po-editpost-2249407.htm .

See https://cmc.nt.gov.au/advancing-industry/mt-isa-to-tennant-creek-railway CMC MI-TC
WimbledonW

A problem with a Mt Isa to Tennant Creek is no-one has come up with a cost, what the likely traffic flows will be (other than RP flows that make no logistical sense), and what the likely revenues might be.

Time to stop drawing lines on maps with crayons.
  WimbledonW Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
A problem with a Mt Isa to Tennant Creek is no-one has come up with a cost, what the likely traffic flows will be (other than RP flows that make no logistical sense), and what the likely revenues might be.

Time to stop drawing lines on maps with crayons.
bingley hall
The Talgo RD Gauge Changer looks strong and viable, but there is no indication as to the cost and price. But good progress is being made. We will just have to wait and see.

Can we turn back the clock and keep 1435mm for Vic & SA instead of 1600mm and similarly replace 1067mm in QLD, SA and WA? This was the original plan of Lord Gray Sad
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

A problem with a Mt Isa to Tennant Creek is no-one has come up with a cost, what the likely traffic flows will be (other than RP flows that make no logistical sense), and what the likely revenues might be.

Time to stop drawing lines on maps with crayons.
bingley hall
Agree.

Also time to give up on the gauge changing bogies fad of the last few weeks.

If they ever get introduced to Australian freight they will be used just as they are on European freight - on a handful of specific wagon rakes dedicated to specific high value freight flows that justify the investment, not installed on everything that moves just in case they might be needed one day.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The Talgo RD Gauge Changer looks strong and viable, but there is no indication as to the cost and price. But good progress is being made.
WimbledonW
RENFE has been using it since the latter days of General Franco's rule, so I'm sure that they would have a good idea of the cost given they also procure a significant amount of single gauge rolling stock as well.
  WimbledonW Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
A problem with a Mt Isa to Tennant Creek is no-one has come up with a cost, what the likely traffic flows will be (other than RP flows that make no logistical sense), and what the likely revenues might be.

Time to stop drawing lines on maps with crayons.
Agree.

Also time to give up on the gauge changing bogies fad of the last few weeks.

If they ever get introduced to Australian freight they will be used just as they are on European freight - on a handful of specific wagon rakes dedicated to specific high value freight flows that justify the investment, not installed on everything that moves just in case they might be needed one day.
justapassenger
Talgo is offering a proposal to operate Talgo trains between Mt Barker and Adelaide. Will these include Gauge Changer gear?

Part of the route from Goodwood to Adelaide could remain BG, while Goodwood to Belair could be converted to SG, creasting SG double track up the hill. This would use GC.

See https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/spanish-train-manufacturer-talgo-to-seek-funding-to-run-passenger-rail-trial-between-mount-barker-and-adelaide
  WimbledonW Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The Talgo RD Gauge Changer looks strong and viable, but there is no indication as to the cost and price. But good progress is being made.
RENFE has been using it since the latter days of General Franco's rule, so I'm sure that they would have a good idea of the cost given they also procure a significant amount of single gauge rolling stock as well.
justapassenger
A Gauge Change train has been operating between Spain and IIRC Italy since about IIRC 1969. This was an articulated train.

Talgo the company was founded in 1942.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

No idea what they are planning, but there is absolutely no need for any gauge changing to be involved.

The proposed trial is probably hitting a dead stop soon anyway, as the new Minister will probably remember that the local lobbyist employed by Talgo is a bloke the minister had to fire from a senior role at DTEI/DPTI during the last time around.

The track from Mt Barker Junction to Mt Barker is unserviceable and will need to be rebuilt from scratch, so may as well be standard gauge. The city end can be dealt with by either selecting a station where passengers will connect between systems (trial) or building dual gauge from Adelaide platform 5 to a connection at Mile End (permanent).

But enough about Mt Barker on this thread, you can look up the other threads where it's been done to death recently.
  hbedriver Deputy Commissioner

Surely the ideal gauge for Mt Isa - Tennant Creek would be 1251mm? A perfect compromise between the Colonial Cape Gauge and the Roman Chariot muddle!

People need to be more innovative.

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