Russia vs. Ukraine - Potential War?

 
Topic moved from The Lounge by dthead on 17 Feb 2022 16:36
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If this was a court of law, RTT_Rules, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on mate.

In no universe have I supported the execution of civilians, child abduction. Nowhere have I called any Jewish people Nazis.

What you've written there is straight-up slander because like a lot of other people here you think my pointing out the obvious, which is that Putin was provoked to invade Ukraine by their failure to abide by the Minsk Agreement (both times) is the same thing as saying I like Putin and support what he's doing. Whereas trying to give a background for what's going on is not the same thing as supporting what he's doing.

You're not the only person to conflate my unpacking of what's actually caused this war with support of Putin - like a lot of people here you want to see this thing purely in black and white terms with no complicated explanations as to what actually happened. But it just isn't that simple - Putin didn't invade Ukraine because he was looking for something to do on a weekend - he did it (so he would say) because Russian-speaking people were being persecuted by Azov Battalion and the Ukrainian government was doing nothing about it - and in fact had ignored what was going on. Six years and two broken peace agreements - and as you can clearly see with that video I posted, Zelenesky had no control whatsoever over that Azov Battalion, they refused to follow orders - a nation so corrupt that the politicians aren't even in charge of the military.

I'm truly sorry for coming along and bursting your bubble of ignorance about what's going on but then like most things the image that the media presents - with Ukraine being completely without blame - is wrong. There's a complicated explanation behind what's gone on here and like a lot of people you simply don't want to know.
don_dunstan, #1 fan of Putin
If we were in court Don you would be charged for being a traitor

The first rule of most people claiming slander is that the accusation is correct.

Minsk agreement was written after in invaded the first time.

If you support the invasion, which you do and stated many times, then you support everything that comes from the invasion and that being the one major army in the world with the worst reputation for treat of civilians since WW2 and including post WW2 occupation of East Germany where this is reasonable eveidence the majority of women aged 8 - 80 and those outside were raped, not once, often gang raped and with the support the military and political leadership and only stopped when the Americans said enough.  The Red Army and now Russian Army is trained to believe that when you have victory over your enemy, rape of the local women (of any age) is a reward.

If you support Putin, then you also support Putin's claims Zelensky is a Nazi, depsite the fact he is a Jew.

Blind Freddy can see there was ZERO provation for Russia to invade Ukraine, only a complete idiot would even think otherwise. What is that Russia feared from Ukraine? If it was about the Donbas area, then fine, go in again and occupy that region?
Where did Kiev come into this?
Where did bombing Liev come into this?
Where did Snake Island come into this?
Where did Maripul come into this?

The Donbas area is a multiculture region, but most Ukrainians had left occupied areas following the invasion and you'd be hard up even finding a Ukrainian numberplate there now.

Azov Battalion kicked Russian invasion focres out of Muripul in 2014 and limited the Russian incursion to Ukraine, I'm not suprised they pull some weight in Ukraine Politics.

If Russia was so concerned about how ethnic Russians were being treated, it should have allowed them refuge, afterall many were relocated there by Russia in USSR days.

Political Leadership not having direct control over a military group does nto equal corruption. If Zelensky was Corrupt, then Putin could easily buy him off. To Zelensky's credit he wasn't for sale.

The bubble to burst is your dislusionment and hero worship of Putin. There maybe more going on, likely is. But your repeated hero statements of Putin and ongoing efforts to put Zelensky into the same box just proves you don't care about the truth, rather just dig down and make redicoulous claim after another to justify your intial statements.

The Reuplic of Ukraine is a independent nation and the only way for Putin to solve the problem is to instruct his people to get the F out of Ukraine. Blind Freddy knows Putin wants Ukraine as a keystone in his rebuilding of the former USSR, he has published a paper on the very topic. Ukraine also knows that prior to the invasion Ukraine was working towards joining NATO, after which it would be untouchable. Putin is also facing a critical election issue in 2024, ie  and looking for a new more senior job than just President of the Russian Federation, ie President of the new USSR.

Sponsored advertisement

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


Stamp reads:

“Inclined toward treason, lies, and deception. Refused to participate in the special military operation on the territory of the LNR, DNR, and Ukraine.”
speedemon08
Its also interesting that because its not a "war", even under the Russian law they likely cannot proscute them.

Also of interest to date some evidence to suggest that non of the guys who refused to return have been proscueted yet. Again showing how much its a propaganda issue as court action creates attention to why these guys won't go back. One or two no issue, but 1000's, lots of court cases, lots of guys telling lots of people why they went to court.

The war in Ukraine is potentially as difficult to win as the propaganda war in Russia.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
Putin has already lost the war in Ukraine, I don't know why he is wasting his time there, he is hated by the Russian people big time.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
If we were in court Don you would be charged for being a traitor
RTT_Rules
You should call the police and tell them exactly what I'm doing: Someone on the internet says "I don't think Australia should be sending weapons to an unstable, autocratic government not in control of its own military"... off to the re-education camps then!
If you support the invasion, which you do and stated many times,
RTT_Rules
See I just can't take you seriously when you come out with a straight up lie like that.

Exploring the reasons behind why Putin invaded is not the same thing as saying I support it.
If you support Putin, then you also support Putin's claims Zelensky is a Nazi, depsite the fact he is a Jew.
RTT_Rules
But see I DON'T support Putin. And Zelensky isn't exactly a Nazi - more of a Nazi enabler don't you think.

Although I think after reading a bit more about Zelensky and Azov there probably wasn't much that he could do to reign them in anyway - he ordered them to put down arms in 2018 and they point blank refused, so Zelensky really wasn't in control of the military anyway, they were calling the shots in Donbass which was the official reason why Putin invaded.

Real world situations are never as straight forward as people want to believe, there are complicated explanations, alliances, entanglements...
Blind Freddy can see there was ZERO provation for Russia to invade Ukraine, only a complete idiot would even think otherwise.
RTT_Rules
Over the last few pages we've been exploring the exact reasons why Putin did what he did - I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that there was no provocation whatsoever. I mean, why would he have invaded otherwise - something to do on a weekend?
The bubble to burst is your dislusionment and hero worship of Putin.
RTT_Rules
Where? Where have I 'hero worshipped' Putin?

And what is 'dislusionment'?
But your repeated hero statements of Putin and ongoing efforts to put Zelensky into the same box just proves you don't care about the truth, rather just dig down and make redicoulous claim after another to justify your intial statements.
RTT_Rules
I don't have to make redicoulous claims to back up my intial statements, all I've ever said is that we shouldn't be getting involved and we especially shouldn't be sending military aid to a country where the government clearly isn't in control - those weapons could be used against us in the future just like the Mujahideen did in Afghanistan. We have an atrocious record of supporting 'freedom fighters' who later turn into 'anti-Western terrorists' - let's not make the same mistake here.

Right?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Senator for Delaware Chris Coons has called for the United States to send troops to Ukraine to stop the Russian invasion:

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
You should call the police and tell them exactly what I'm doing: Someone on the internet says "I don't think Australia should be sending weapons to an unstable, autocratic government not in control of its own military"... off to the re-education camps then!
Don again!

No one said you cannot post that.

What you are posting is saying Zelensky is the same as Putin
And that overall you support and indeed promote the idea that Ukraine shoudl fall to Russian troops which then implies that you support rape, child abduction etc etc.

For any of the made up faults you can think of, Zelensky is trying to protect his people, the indepdent nation of Ukraine from the animals that make up the Russian Army.

As for re-education camps for you. I think they would put you in the too hard basket.

See I just can't take you seriously when you come out with a straight up lie like that. Exploring the reasons behind why Putin invaded is not the same thing as saying I support it.
Don's at it again
Well you do support the invasion! You have said it!

Invasion of Ukraine is still invasion of Ukraine, Putin had no justification to invade.

But see I DON'T support Putin. And Zelensky isn't exactly a Nazi - more of a Nazi enabler don't you think. Although I think after reading a bit more about Zelensky and Azov there probably wasn't much that he could do to reign them in anyway - he ordered them to put down arms in 2018 and they point blank refused, so Zelensky really wasn't in control of the military anyway, they were calling the shots in Donbass which was the official reason why Putin invaded. Real world situations are never as straight forward as people want to believe, there are complicated explanations, alliances, entanglements...
Don Don Don

Yet you do support Putin.

You also repeatitly say Zelensky is the same as Putin.

Is Zelensky a NAZI enabler, hardly

Zelensky wasn't in power in 2018, besides that, those people saved part of Ukraine from Russia.

If Putin felt he needed to invade Donbas, invade Donbas, not Ukraine and try and drive leadership change against the will of the people.

The key difference between Zelensky and Putin is Zelensky will win (now) a fair and open re-election, Putin will not.


Over the last few pages we've been exploring the exact reasons why Putin did what he did - I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that there was no provocation whatsoever. I mean, why would he have invaded otherwise - something to do on a weekend?
Don

Over the last few pages you have not. You bhave come out very pro Putin and now later trying to find some justification for extremist comments.

Its simple, Donbas is in Ukraine, Putin is the ruler of Russian. Putin has no right to being there.

Where? Where have I 'hero worshipped' Putin?
Don

By supporting the invasion, you support Putin.

I don't have to make redicoulous claims to back up my intial statements, all I've ever said is that we shouldn't be getting involved and we especially shouldn't be sending military aid to a country where the government clearly isn't in control - those weapons could be used against us in the future just like the Mujahideen did in Afghanistan. We have an atrocious record of supporting 'freedom fighters' who later turn into 'anti-Western terrorists' - let's not make the same mistake here.
Don Finally
You don't have to, but you did.

The Ukraine govt is clearly in control, Zelensky has 10m males and lots of women fighting for him to kick out Putin. None of them are trying to oppose Zelensky.

Zelensky is the undisputed leader of Ukraine. Undisputred by the UN. He is not a "freedom fighter" trying to over throw a dictatorship in his own country. There was no civil war before Putin got involved. One day you may actually understand the difference.

"Right?"

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, so if Putin is my enemy then my friend is Zelensky.

Zelensky is getting the support he needs because
- He was the rightful leader of the democratic nation
- He did not invade
- He did not start this conflict
- He has requested numerous times to meet Putin
- He has offered a number of options for Russia to get out of Ukraine, such as not joining Nato
- His people are mostly willing to fight for their homeland and him
- He and his wife has refused to leave the country
- He is in the trneches with his people, Putin is at one end of a 30 foot table
- Even the Belarussian Army have said no, not our fight
- 1% of Russian soliders haev estimated to have fled the war
- Zelensky has not introudced censorship to hide what is happening, Putin has
- The media in Ukraine operate freely, they do not in Russia
- There is growing evidence of Russian sabotaging the war effort, there is no evidence from Ukraine side
- Ukrainians are not raping Russian women, the reverse is not true
- Ukrainians are not stealing Russian women and children and forced relocation
- Ukrainians have not walked into a Russian village and executed Russian men
- Ukraine does not have a history of invading other country's, ie Georgia

So if you mean right to this, then of course I agree "right"
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Senator for Delaware Chris Coons has called for the United States to send troops to Ukraine to stop the Russian invasion:

don_dunstan
=> likely equals Nuclear war

Yah, not!
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
And that overall you support and indeed promote the idea that Ukraine shoudl fall to Russian troops which then implies that you support rape, child abduction etc etc.
RTT_Rules
No, I don't. Nowhere on this thread have I said that I support the hostile invasion of Ukraine by Russia.
Well you do support the invasion! You have said it!
RTT_Rules
No, I haven't. By all means review every single post of mine, you will not find me saying I support the invasion.

Please stop making this completely baseless allegation.
Invasion of Ukraine is still invasion of Ukraine, Putin had no justification to invade.
RTT_Rules
He had REASONS to invade. This is not the same thing as saying that he had JUSTIFICATION to invade.

You seem to get stuck on this point constantly.
Yet you do support Putin.
RTT_Rules
No, I don't support Putin. Where have I said that I support what Putin is doing?

This is getting really tiresome, even by my standards of being patient with you. You just keep making the same allegations over and over again without a shred of evidence to support what you're saying.
You also repeatitly say Zelensky is the same as Putin.
RTT_Rules
I repeatedly say that Zelenesky and his government are not worth the protection or patronage of the West because he was elected on a platform of ending the war in Donbass and failed to do so because he has not control over Azov and the army in general. Just like that video that I posted a few pages back, Zelenesky telling troops they should do as they're told and the Azov commander telling him 'no'.

Is that a country we should be sending weapons to, one where the government isn't in charge of the military?
By supporting the invasion, you support Putin.
RTT_Rules
The expression 'headless chook' comes to mind at this point...
There was no civil war before Putin got involved.
RTT_Rules
This is patently wrong - the civil war in the east of Ukraine has been discussed many times over the course of this thread.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, so if Putin is my enemy then my friend is Zelensky.
RTT_Rules
Putin is NOT an enemy of the West although we have certainly been treating them that way with the relentless expansion of NATO eastwards and a series of broken promises from Clinton onwards about not doing exactly that.

And sending troops to support Ukraine is the thin edge of the wedge. Afghanistan, Vietnam anyone?
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
Don, you have told us why the invasion is happening yes, but that does not make it right now does it, as I have said multiple times on here, Ukraine is a totally independent country and should not be invaded by a dictator in Vladimir Putin, it is a sovereign nation.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
For someone who claimed their warship was sunk by fire, they certainly have gotten very cranky in the last 24hr.

Anyway, the count down is on, less than 21 days to go before Putin needs to stop.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
No, I don't. Nowhere on this thread have I said that I support the hostile invasion of Ukraine by Russia
Don

You want me to quote you?

But if you don't support it, then stop supporting it.

No, I haven't. By all means review every single post of mine, you will not find me saying I support the invasion. Please stop making this completely baseless allegation.

No, I don't support Putin. Where have I said that I support what Putin is doing?

This is getting really tiresome, even by my standards of being patient with you. You just keep making the same allegations over and over again without a shred of evidence to support what you're saying.
Don
Now you are in denial.

Nope, while you openly support this war, then no.

If you dont' support the war, then come out and say it. We are all waiting.

He had REASONS to invade. This is not the same thing as saying that he had JUSTIFICATION to invade. You seem to get stuck on this point constantly.
Don

I have reasons to invade NZ, but I don't do it.

You seem to get stuck on the fact you support a dictator invading a soverign nation.

I repeatedly say that Zelenesky and his government are not worth the protection or patronage of the West because he was elected on a platform of ending the war in Donbass and failed to do so because he has not control over Azov and the army in general.

Just like that video that I posted a few pages back, Zelenesky telling troops they should do as they're told and the Azov commander telling him 'no'. Is that a country we should be sending weapons to, one where the government isn't in charge of the military?
Don
So not worth protecting is saying you support the invasion?

Pick a side?

Oh god, the man was elected to stop a war that takes two sides to stop. He tried and failed.

The troops are supporting Zelensky now, so we are according to you doing the right thing.  Settled

The expression 'headless chook' comes to mind at this point...
Don

Then come out a say you do not support this war and Putin's actions and that Zelensky is a example of an elected leader trying to save his country for which we we should support.

This is patently wrong - the civil war in the east of Ukraine has been discussed many times over the course of this thread.
Don
Civil war is an internal issue between that area and the country. Putin was not invited in by Zelensky, but accepting an invitation if one exisst by Donbas leaders, Putin is invading another country, univited. So much so most of the world doesn't agree with Putin and those who do have their own reasons to support.

Putin is NOT an enemy of the West although we have certainly been treating them that way with the relentless expansion of NATO eastwards and a series of broken promises from Clinton onwards about not doing exactly that.

And sending troops to support Ukraine is the thin edge of the wedge. Afghanistan, Vietnam anyone?
Don
Then why is he constantly stiring up trouble where it wasn't needed.

Why did he invade Ukraine when he was asked not to.

Why is he concenred Ukraine and now Sweden and Finland will join NATO?

What expansion of NATO east? Little change in what 10 -15 years?

Why is he hated by so many of his own countryman?

Why does he ban Western media and no war protests?

Why invade Ukraine and treat the civilians like dirt?

For someone who is not our enemy, he certainly carries on like one.

Who suggested sending troops to Ukraine, I didn't and the reason has got nothing to do with those two countries.

Why would Putin be so fearful of Ukraine joining NATO? When was the last time a NATO country invaded another one?

When was the last time a NATO country invaded another country in the EU?
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
For someone who claimed their warship was sunk by fire, they certainly have gotten very cranky in the last 24hr.

Anyway, the count down is on, less than 21 days to go before Putin needs to stop.
RTT_Rules
Otherwise what happens??, I have missed that one. (I will grab the answer tomorrow arvo, I work tomorrow, and I'm singing off.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
For someone who claimed their warship was sunk by fire, they certainly have gotten very cranky in the last 24hr.

Anyway, the count down is on, less than 21 days to go before Putin needs to stop.
Otherwise what happens??, I have missed that one. (I will grab the answer tomorrow arvo, I work tomorrow, and I'm singing off.
lsrailfan
Estimated time for Russias economic collapse or likely running out of military.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
For someone who claimed their warship was sunk by fire, they certainly have gotten very cranky in the last 24hr.

Anyway, the count down is on, less than 21 days to go before Putin needs to stop.
RTT_Rules
Russias excuses in the last 3 days went from:

  1. It's fine (Ukraine said they hit it, used a TB2 drone to distract it and fired a Neptune missile)
  2. It's got an ammunition fire
  3. It's sinking due to rough weather heading back to port (weather was fine Razz )
  4. Ukraine done it (Moskva has now been promoted to special operations underwater vessel)

  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Don, you have told us why the invasion is happening yes, but that does not make it right now does it, as I have said multiple times on here, Ukraine is a totally independent country and should not be invaded by a dictator in Vladimir Putin, it is a sovereign nation.
lsrailfan
But its totally irrelevant whether or not you and I approve or disapprove of what's happening in Ukraine, it's going to happen anyway.

I've been trying to get other people on this board interested in the Chinese government staving their own people to death in their biggest city but for some reason nobody wants to talk about that. There's a war in Yemen which has systematically killed and starved to death civilians over the last decade or so, hardly anyone on this board cares what's going there despite the death of 340,000+ civilians there.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is horrible, there's no denying it - but we had 'weapons of mass destruction', remember - we invaded for something that didn't even exist - and by 'we' I mean Australia because we were in the three nations that were the 'Coalition of the Willing'.

We've inflicted more than our fair share of pain and suffering since WWII - yet I'm supposed to condemn Putin for pushing back against Western bloc expansionism? Please...
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
You want me to quote you?
RTT_Rules
Yes please, I've been begging to get the quote from where I say it was excellent that Putin invaded Ukraine and ate their babies.

We did what Putin in doing for less reasons in Iraq 19 years ago, remember?

Please stop lecturing me on ethical nation-state behaviour while you live somewhere that denies free speech, allows arbitrary arrest, forced deportations and condones slave labour conditions ... the hypocrisy is breath-taking.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
For someone who claimed their warship was sunk by fire, they certainly have gotten very cranky in the last 24hr.

Anyway, the count down is on, less than 21 days to go before Putin needs to stop.
Otherwise what happens??, I have missed that one. (I will grab the answer tomorrow arvo, I work tomorrow, and I'm singing off.
lsrailfan
9th May is Victory day in Russia. My Russian friends tell me its significant and Putin needs to have this wrapped up by then.

Details and context I don't remember nor have the desire to bother to look it up.

Envoy your singing
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
You want me to quote you?
Yes please, I've been begging to get the quote from where I say it was excellent that Putin invaded Ukraine and ate their babies.

We did what Putin in doing for less reasons in Iraq 19 years ago, remember?

Please stop lecturing me on ethical nation-state behaviour while you live somewhere that denies free speech, allows arbitrary arrest, forced deportations and condones slave labour conditions ... the hypocrisy is breath-taking.
don_dunstan
Don
I read through all your posts on this subject today and you basically challenge anything that supports Ukraine and have never once said what Russia has done is wrong. Even when others and myself have challenged you, not once have you said Putin/Russia is wrong.

At least three separate people have asked why you support Putin so much.

On Page 5, someone posted about facts of protests in Russia and infor out of Ukraine from the conflict and you called it "Western Propaganda"

If you are not a Putin Supporter, you are doing a bloody good job of supporting Putin.


One more time Don?
Then why is he constantly stirring up trouble where it wasn't needed.
Why did he invade Ukraine when he was asked not to.
Why is he concerned Ukraine and now Sweden and Finland will join NATO?
What expansion of NATO east? Little change in what 10 -15 years?
Why is he hated by so many of his own countryman?
Why does he ban Western media and no war protests?
Why invade Ukraine and treat the civilians like dirt?
For someone who is not our enemy, he certainly carries on like one.
Who suggested sending troops to Ukraine, I didn't and the reason has got nothing to do with those two countries.
Why would Putin be so fearful of Ukraine joining NATO? When was the last time a NATO country invaded another one?
When was the last time a NATO country invaded another country in the EU?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
You want me to quote you?
Yes please, I've been begging to get the quote from where I say it was excellent that Putin invaded Ukraine and ate their babies.

We did what Putin in doing for less reasons in Iraq 19 years ago, remember?

Please stop lecturing me on ethical nation-state behaviour while you live somewhere that denies free speech, allows arbitrary arrest, forced deportations and condones slave labour conditions ... the hypocrisy is breath-taking.
Don
I read through all your posts on this subject today and you basically challenge anything that supports Ukraine and have never once said what Russia has done is wrong. Even when others and myself have challenged you, not once have you said Putin/Russia is wrong.

At least three separate people have asked why you support Putin so much.

On Page 5, someone posted about facts of protests in Russia and infor out of Ukraine from the conflict and you called it "Western Propaganda"
RTT_Rules
You told me you were going to find a quote from me that clearly spelt out my support for Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

You have failed.

So do I get an apology for being wrongly typecast as a Putin supporter?
If you are not a Putin Supporter, you are doing a bloody good job of supporting Putin.
RTT_Rules
No, I'm not. It's all in your mind.
One more time Don? Then why is he constantly stirring up trouble where it wasn't needed. Why did he invade Ukraine when he was asked not to. Why is he concerned Ukraine and now Sweden and Finland will join NATO? What expansion of NATO east? Little change in what 10 -15 years? Why is he hated by so many of his own countryman? Why does he ban Western media and no war protests? Why invade Ukraine and treat the civilians like dirt? For someone who is not our enemy, he certainly carries on like one. Who suggested sending troops to Ukraine, I didn't and the reason has got nothing to do with those two countries. Why would Putin be so fearful of Ukraine joining NATO? When was the last time a NATO country invaded another one? When was the last time a NATO country invaded another country in the EU?
RTT_Rules
This word salad (that you've obviously cut and paste from somewhere else) is all over the shop and I'm not sure what the point of posting it was. You aren't really interested in what I have to say anyway, you just want affirmation of your own point of view and I'm not here to do that.

By the way, NATO bombed and killed civilians in Serbia and Libya.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
You want me to quote you?
Yes please, I've been begging to get the quote from where I say it was excellent that Putin invaded Ukraine and ate their babies.

We did what Putin in doing for less reasons in Iraq 19 years ago, remember?

Please stop lecturing me on ethical nation-state behaviour while you live somewhere that denies free speech, allows arbitrary arrest, forced deportations and condones slave labour conditions ... the hypocrisy is breath-taking.
Don
I read through all your posts on this subject today and you basically challenge anything that supports Ukraine and have never once said what Russia has done is wrong. Even when others and myself have challenged you, not once have you said Putin/Russia is wrong.

At least three separate people have asked why you support Putin so much.

On Page 5, someone posted about facts of protests in Russia and infor out of Ukraine from the conflict and you called it "Western Propaganda"
You told me you were going to find a quote from me that clearly spelt out my support for Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

You have failed.

So do I get an apology for being wrongly typecast as a Putin supporter?
If you are not a Putin Supporter, you are doing a bloody good job of supporting Putin.
No, I'm not. It's all in your mind.
One more time Don? Then why is he constantly stirring up trouble where it wasn't needed. Why did he invade Ukraine when he was asked not to. Why is he concerned Ukraine and now Sweden and Finland will join NATO? What expansion of NATO east? Little change in what 10 -15 years? Why is he hated by so many of his own countryman? Why does he ban Western media and no war protests? Why invade Ukraine and treat the civilians like dirt? For someone who is not our enemy, he certainly carries on like one. Who suggested sending troops to Ukraine, I didn't and the reason has got nothing to do with those two countries. Why would Putin be so fearful of Ukraine joining NATO? When was the last time a NATO country invaded another one? When was the last time a NATO country invaded another country in the EU?
This word salad (that you've obviously cut and paste from somewhere else) is all over the shop and I'm not sure what the point of posting it was. You aren't really interested in what I have to say anyway, you just want affirmation of your own point of view and I'm not here to do that.

By the way, NATO bombed and killed civilians in Serbia and Libya.
don_dunstan
You told me you were not supporting Putin in his desire to exterminate the Ukrainian people and their leader, yet all you do is publish Pro-Putin hoo haa. I read through all your posts, I'll agree that you state over and over why Zelensky and hence Ukraine should fall to Putin. At no time do you say what Russia/Putin is doing is wrong.

The first time you have made any hint you don't support Putin is in this post, even in the past when a number of posters challenged you seperately of each other. You even claimed media reports from Ukraine were "Western Propaganda".

Not a word salad, it was simply a list a questions that until you quoted it, was in line by line order, not in sentance form? Did you asnwer any?

What has NATO bombing Serbia and Libyra got anything to do with it and neither are in the EU? Both those counrties had agressive leaders who were invading or attacking other countries. FFS Serbia's leader was being tried in The Hague for war crimes in Bosnia.

Again Don, I'll ask, this time I've numbered it for you.

1) Then why is he constantly stirring up trouble where it wasn't needed.
2) Why did he invade Ukraine when he was asked not to.
3) Why is he concerned Ukraine and now Sweden and Finland will join NATO?
4) What expansion of NATO east? Little change in what 10 -15 years?
5) Why is he hated by so many of his own countryman?
6) Why does he ban Western media and no war protests?
7) Why invade Ukraine and treat the civilians like dirt?
8) For someone who is not our enemy, he certainly carries on like one.
9) Who suggested sending troops to Ukraine, I didn't and the reason has got nothing to do with those two countries.
10) Why would Putin be so fearful of Ukraine joining NATO? When was the last time a NATO country invaded another one?
11) When was the last time a NATO country invaded another country in the EU?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
You told me you were not supporting Putin in his desire to exterminate the Ukrainian people and their leader, yet all you do is publish Pro-Putin hoo haa. I read through all your posts, I'll agree that you state over and over why Zelensky and hence Ukraine should fall to Putin. At no time do you say what Russia/Putin is doing is wrong.
RTT_Rules
But that isn't the same thing as saying that I support what he's doing - it's a really subtle difference but it's true, I don't support his war.

There's just so many layers of problem in this situation, not the least of which is the fact that Ukraine was incredibly corrupt and a kinda quasi-military autocracy. Zelenesky getting into power on a platform of making peace with Russia was a spark of hope and it shows that there's some degree of actual democracy in place but within a week of him being elected one of those Azov commander thugs openly threatened his life and that was pretty much the end of the peace process before it even got off the ground.

So it would be much easier if we genuinely wanted to put a peace process into place to get rid of Azov and Zelenesky along with them seeing as he seems to have been thoroughly 'got to' by them now. The problem is that the West was supporting Azov all along because they wanted to antagonise Putin with a proxy... so NATO/USA aren't really that interested in a genuine peace at the moment either because it would solve a problem that they really aren't in a hurry to solve.

There are layers of complexity in this problem that are not encapsulated by "Putin bad".
The first time you have made any hint you don't support Putin is in this post, even in the past when a number of posters challenged you seperately of each other. You even claimed media reports from Ukraine were "Western Propaganda".
RTT_Rules
You obviously aren't familiar with the old saying "the first casualty in war is truth". Whatever I had pinned as Western propaganda probably WAS western propaganda.

Remember Iraq War I under George H. Bush - those heartless, cruel bastard Iraqi soldiers were throwing babies out of incubators to their deaths right outside the Kuwaiti hospitals. Only it was a lie.

World War One - German soldiers were killing Belgian civilians and cooking them up in huge vats to extract the fat. Another lie.

Are you starting to see a pattern here? We have a bad habit of making up stuff about enemies just to make them seem more evil. And it's still going on.
3) Why is he concerned Ukraine and now Sweden and Finland will join NATO?
4) What expansion of NATO east? Little change in what 10 -15 years?
RTT_Rules
Clinton told Yeltsin in no uncertain terms that Russia would not be threatened by NATO expanding eastwards and then did the exact opposite. He lied to Yelstin (not that Yeltsin would have even noticed I'm sure) but the point was that Russia was being taken for a rube and treated as if it was an enemy when clearly the Soviet threat was over.

Who was allowed into NATO then? Poland, Hungary and Czech Republic in 1999. Around 2002 Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Roumania, Slovakia, and Slovenia. Albania and Croatia 2009, and the most recent were Montenegro and North Macedonia - so yeah, it's been a progressive boxing in of Russia when you consider that under Putin they applied to join NATO at least twice in the early 2000's and were rejected.

Obviously NATO is about boxing them in, not just a 'peace agreement' or a coalition of like-minded people wanting peace - Putin is right to feel threatened by that alliance. How could you interpret the refusal to let them into the club any other way?
9) Who suggested sending troops to Ukraine, I didn't and the reason has got nothing to do with those two countries.
RTT_Rules
High level politicians (Biden allies) in the USA suggesting it right now - did you not read what I posted on the last page?
10) Why would Putin be so fearful of Ukraine joining NATO? When was the last time a NATO country invaded another one?
RTT_Rules
Because it's the same thing as Russia moving its troops into Ottawa, Toronto, Tijuana, you name it. Right up to the border of the country that the 'treaty' is directed at containing. And probably missiles, air-bases and whatever else you can name will go into that country as well - all pointing in one direction against one enemy.

I don't blame Putin one single bit for going crook about Ukraine being allowed to join NATO when Russia isn't. It's a direct provocation.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
For someone who claimed their warship was sunk by fire, they certainly have gotten very cranky in the last 24hr.

Anyway, the count down is on, less than 21 days to go before Putin needs to stop.
Russias excuses in the last 3 days went from:

  1. It's fine (Ukraine said they hit it, used a TB2 drone to distract it and fired a Neptune missile)
  2. It's got an ammunition fire
  3. It's sinking due to rough weather heading back to port (weather was fine Razz )
  4. Ukraine done it (Moskva has now been promoted to special operations underwater vessel)

speedemon08
I think it's pretty definite that Moskva was hit with the Neptunes, which perhaps then went on to induce the munitions fire that saw her succumb to her injuries.

The Moskva (Slava) was built in Ukraine, word is that Ukraine still had the old 'grey beards' about that engineered/built her. They knew a thing or two about her, one of those things being that her OSA-M anti airborne defense either couldn't see/track targets or couldn't fire in the high sea state she was in that night. She still have the AK-630 CIWS, but that's regarded as a last line and isn't to be relied on, and this is what the 'drone' was for, depending on how many Neptunes Ukraine fired (they only mention two hits, not how many were launched) it is quite feasible they got through.

Moskva probably would have sustained quite critical damage, but nearly all of that should have been ABOVE the waterline, that she was engulfed by fire and eventually went down speaks to the Russian navy's poor damage control ability and /or equipment and/or training - my guess is they're poor at all three.

I was pleased to notice that the photos of Moskva post impact show her to not be carrying any lifeboats, Russia also stated at all were evacuated, though what is meant by 'all' is somewhat questionable, apparently rescued by civilian fishing vessels, which is interesting given she was the flagship of the fleet...
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
China and Russia pledge deeper security and economic ties 'no matter what': ZeroHedge;

China has remained undeterred by Washington threats over its deepening ties and closer cooperation with Russia even as the Kremlin commits to military takeover of the Donbas region of Ukraine. On Wednesday Beijing affirmed it will "continue strengthening strategic ties with Russia," according to a top diplomat.

This even as Washington has ramped up the rhetoric seeking to highlight horrific war crimes alleged in places like Bucha, or now Mariupol. While recently the Biden administration admitted it "has not seen" China providing Russia with military equipment, as some prior admin officials alleged was likely happening, the accusation and suspicion has lingered over Beijing, still under Western pressure to come out definitively against the Russian invasion (though it remains that Beijing officials have resisted even using the word "invasion" to describe the conflict).

"No matter how the international landscape may change, China will continue to strengthen strategic coordination with Russia for win-win cooperation, jointly safeguard the common interests of the two countries and promote the building of a new type of international relations and a community with a shared future for mankind,” Vice Foreign Minister Le Yucheng said in a late Tuesday statement.

The statement, issued via the Chinese Foreign Ministry, came after Le met with Russian envoy Andrey Ivanovich Denisov. The meeting was apparently full of optimism even as unprecedented Western anti-Russia sanctions seek to wreck its economy and bring Iran levels of isolation. According to Bloomberg:

He said that a nearly 30% jump in trade between the nations during the first three months of 2022 demonstrate "the great resilience and internal dynamism of bilateral cooperation."

In return, the Russian envoy was quoted as saying that relations with China continue to be a top "diplomatic priority".

So there's a 30% jump in trade between the two countries this year? Seems to negate the theory that Russia will fall over from not being able to trade with anyone.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Russia is still collapsing, so Russia do 30% more trade with the Chinese (hey Don, fill me in, doesn’t Australia doing too much trade with China represent a problem according to you?) big deal, that’s about an extra 40-59 billion USD in trade, Russia have lost 150 billion USD in trade with the USA alone and 250+ billion USD with the EU.

Russia’s trade with China now is still less than Russia’s trade with the USA before the war.

They need to be doing more like 300% more trade with China to stay on parity with where they were.


Even then, China is still only providing Chinese products if your Mercedes has increased in value 10x due to import restrictions are you going to be putting Chinese oil in it tomorrow? If you’re about to board a flight from Moscow to St Petersburg are you going to be comforted by the aircraft having brand new Chinese tyres fitted?

Russia will ‘survive’ I mean they made it through Stalin and communism with the controlled markets and restrictions and lack of personal freedom and all that, but no one sane suggests they Russia wasn’t in a better place 60 days ago.
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

The reason why Russia did not join NATO is well documented. George Robertson NATO Chief was approached by Putin about an Invitation. Robertson replied you will have to apply LIKE EVERYONE ELSE  And the rest is history.

Yes some dont blame Putin from going crook and killing Civilians because Russia wasn't invited and thinks that Russia should not have to apply.

What an absolute disgrace.

Mannie

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