Renewable energy thread 2022

 
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Mentioned in another thread, but money talks:

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  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

I have you two in such a sweet spot. Smile

M.
The Vinelander
If you mean that we’re having fun, I agree!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
I have you two in such a sweet spot. Smile

M.
If you mean that we’re having fun, I agree!
Sonofagunzel

I'm so chuffed you and the other RWNJ consider me to be such an intellectual opponent Smile

M.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

I have you two in such a sweet spot. Smile

M.
If you mean that we’re having fun, I agree!

I'm so chuffed you and the other RWNJ consider me to be such an intellectual opponent Smile

M.
The Vinelander
I see why you’d be surprised.

But really, I don’t think of you as an opposing player. You are more like the ball.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
I'm so chuffed you and the other RWNJ consider me to be such an intellectual opponent Smile

M.
The Vinelander
Frequently you've told me you speak for EVERYONE on this board, Mike.

Apparently not...
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Banned
I pop in here every so often just in case there's a sensible comment. Nope; business as usual - you're stupid, I'm right, you're wrong, no I'm not.
Ho Hum.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
I pop in here every so often just in case there's a sensible comment. Nope; business as usual - you're stupid, I'm right, you're wrong, no I'm not.
Ho Hum.
Valvegear
RTT_Rules was giving it a red-hot go but ultimately you can't defend the indefensible. Mike on the other hand doesn't even understand what it is we're talking about so he just comes here to whinge that about his ignorance and try and disrupt any proper conversation.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Fair weather renewable power generation....

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-28/sa-agl-wind-farms-tesla-battery-fined-over-breaches/101190674?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web
ANR
The problem is that these are private operators compelled to make the biggest profits that they can and part of their method is to wait until the grid demand is at its highest and restrict service so the price goes up even higher.

With the very unreliable nature of wind energy, that means that as a gas or battery provider you should wait until there's no wind at all and then either withdraw service entirely citing maintenance issues or only provide a small amount of power at gouging rates. It happened here in South Australia six months ago when we had a few days of no wind at all (and very hot weather) and the wholesale price spiked to $10,000 MWh, gas providers were making a fortune because there was no wind.

A few years back the South Australian government threatened the French owners of our gas peaking plants with legislative action if they kept playing this game but nothing happened. And the fines are meaningless compared to the amounts of money to be made from gouging.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Fair weather renewable power generation....

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-28/sa-agl-wind-farms-tesla-battery-fined-over-breaches/101190674?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web
The problem is that these are private operators compelled to make the biggest profits that they can and part of their method is to wait until the grid demand is at its highest and restrict service so the price goes up even higher.

With the very unreliable nature of wind energy, that means that as a gas or battery provider you should wait until there's no wind at all and then either withdraw service entirely citing maintenance issues or only provide a small amount of power at gouging rates. It happened here in South Australia six months ago when we had a few days of no wind at all (and very hot weather) and the wholesale price spiked to $10,000 MWh, gas providers were making a fortune because there was no wind.

A few years back the South Australian government threatened the French owners of our gas peaking plants with legislative action if they kept playing this game but nothing happened. And the fines are meaningless compared to the amounts of money to be made from gouging.
don_dunstan
BS
Go back through SA's data for the last year.

Yes there are the odd daily spike, no more than Qld and often linked to problems a short lived technical failure, not wind as you can the days either side the wind capacity is basically the same. The gas output on most of these "spike days" is actually higher showing that there was a supply issue in another location, not withholding capacity and if you look hard enough you can find it in usually a coal power station failure or HV failure.

Regarding the threats to the operators. Yes there was done years ago. Operators must now declare the availability well in advance and bring it on line if instructed to do so by the AEMO.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I pop in here every so often just in case there's a sensible comment. Nope; business as usual - you're stupid, I'm right, you're wrong, no I'm not.
Ho Hum.
RTT_Rules was giving it a red-hot go but ultimately you can't defend the indefensible. Mike on the other hand doesn't even understand what it is we're talking about so he just comes here to whinge that about his ignorance and try and disrupt any proper conversation.
don_dunstan
No Don, your BS on this just go worse and worse. People give up
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

I pop in here every so often just in case there's a sensible comment. Nope; business as usual - you're stupid, I'm right, you're wrong, no I'm not.
Ho Hum.
RTT_Rules was giving it a red-hot go but ultimately you can't defend the indefensible. Mike on the other hand doesn't even understand what it is we're talking about so he just comes here to whinge that about his ignorance and try and disrupt any proper conversation.
No Don, your BS on this just go worse and worse. People give up
RTT_Rules
There's an old quote attributed to Mark Twain "Never argue with stupid people, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Mentioned in another thread, but money talks:
Carnot
Why does this even rate a mention unless its about rail usage?

Even places like Australia and USA which havn't built a coal power station for over 12 years and will unlikely ever build another one will still continue to consume thermal coal for another 20 - 25 years.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Banned
Why does this even rate a mention unless its about rail usage?
"RTT_Rules"
Because it's in a Forum called The Lounge where posters can write about anything they like e.g. Big Brother, Rugby League or Shampooing the Family Goldfish.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There's an old quote attributed to Mark Twain "Never argue with stupid people, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
ParkesHub
Based on this I will conceed defeat as clearly beaten by experience.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
BS
Go back through SA's data for the last year.

Yes there are the odd daily spike, no more than Qld and often linked to problems a short lived technical failure, not wind as you can the days either side the wind capacity is basically the same. The gas output on most of these "spike days" is actually higher showing that there was a supply issue in another location, not withholding capacity and if you look hard enough you can find it in usually a coal power station failure or HV failure.

Regarding the threats to the operators. Yes there was done years ago. Operators must now declare the availability well in advance and bring it on line if instructed to do so by the AEMO.
RTT_Rules
It was clearly wind's failure that was the problem - and the spikes occur with monotonous regularity thanks to wind. I even posted a link to the AEMO investigation into the incident earlier on in this thread and even they said it was squarely the fault of the wind situation but (as usual) you ignored the data that didn't fit your story. And here we are with you STILL blaming anything but wind when clearly the constant intermittency of that energy source is the root of the problem.

You've been conspicuously absent from the Lounge and the Soapbox since Sonofagunzel handed you your posterior in the COVID19 thread, I assumed it was because you got tired of being wrong.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It was clearly wind's failure that was the problem - and the spikes occur with monotonous regularity thanks to wind. I even posted a link to the AEMO investigation into the incident earlier on in this thread and even they said it was squarely the fault of the wind situation but (as usual) you ignored the data that didn't fit your story. And here we are with you STILL blaming anything but wind when clearly the constant intermittency of that energy source is the root of the problem.

You've been conspicuously absent from the Lounge and the Soapbox since Sonofagunzel handed you your posterior in the COVID19 thread, I assumed it was because you got tired of being wrong.
don_dunstan
No Don
Spike happen because of all sort of reasons. lack of wind is hardly an irregular occurance and if you were correct, then it would $10,000 MWh every 2nd day.

What Data Don, you post something usually completely irrelevent and/or grab one section out of the whole thing, ie out of context and go look.

If there was any level of thruth to what you are saying, why is SA whole sale power prices so cheap in comparison to the rest of the NEM for the last few years?

SA has been 2/3 the wholesale price of Qld for 18mths now and not far off the year before and how much coal is burnt in Qld Don? How much is burnt in SA?

https://www.aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem#nem-dispatch-overview

I've been busy Don, we are allowed a life away from here. You may have noticed I have made very few pots of late until today. I've read the comments by you and Sono, there is only so much bull $hit one can take in before it leaves a foul smell in your mouth. I'll get to that group later.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
I pop in here every so often just in case there's a sensible comment. Nope; business as usual - you're stupid, I'm right, you're wrong, no I'm not.
Ho Hum.
RTT_Rules was giving it a red-hot go but ultimately you can't defend the indefensible. Mike on the other hand doesn't even understand what it is we're talking about so he just comes here to whinge that about his ignorance and try and disrupt any proper conversation.
No Don, your BS on this just go worse and worse. People give up
RTT_Rules
You were so often wrong about things that you posted here I made a list of it last month.

Wind turbine copper content and tonnage, the number of birds being killed, the life-span of wind-turbines and solar panels, the difficult nature of recycling wind turbines and solar panels (they're extremely difficult and energy intensive to recycle), the efficiency and cost of pumped hydro, the useful life-span of geo-thermal energy sites, the cost of building and maintaining geo-thermal power, the efficacy and cost of battery storage, the assumption that technology will improve exponentially over the next ten years, the use of rare earth minerals in batteries diminishing (it isn't), the efficacy and battery life of electric cars, the fact that the carbon put into the manufacture of electric cars isn't being recorded correctly, the price of power in Australia, the overall cost of renewables to the Australian economy...

That's just a sample of the things that you've got wrong on this thread, RTT_Rules.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
I'm so chuffed you and the other RWNJ consider me to be such an intellectual opponent Smile

M.
Frequently you've told me you speak for EVERYONE on this board, Mike.

Apparently not...
don_dunstan

I say it because it annoys you...as it has right now.

M.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I pop in here every so often just in case there's a sensible comment. Nope; business as usual - you're stupid, I'm right, you're wrong, no I'm not.
Ho Hum.
RTT_Rules was giving it a red-hot go but ultimately you can't defend the indefensible. Mike on the other hand doesn't even understand what it is we're talking about so he just comes here to whinge that about his ignorance and try and disrupt any proper conversation.
No Don, your BS on this just go worse and worse. People give up
You were so often wrong about things that you posted here I made a list of it last month.

Wind turbine copper content and tonnage, the number of birds being killed, the life-span of wind-turbines and solar panels, the difficult nature of recycling wind turbines and solar panels (they're extremely difficult and energy intensive to recycle), the efficiency and cost of pumped hydro, the useful life-span of geo-thermal energy sites, the cost of building and maintaining geo-thermal power, the efficacy and cost of battery storage, the assumption that technology will improve exponentially over the next ten years, the use of rare earth minerals in batteries diminishing (it isn't), the efficacy and battery life of electric cars, the fact that the carbon put into the manufacture of electric cars isn't being recorded correctly, the price of power in Australia, the overall cost of renewables to the Australian economy...

That's just a sample of the things that you've got wrong on this thread, RTT_Rules.
don_dunstan

Oh BS Don.

Are you an idiot or just trying to pretend to be one?
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Banned
Now we wait for the predictable answer - "I say it's true so you have to prove me wrong."
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
I say it because it annoys you...as it has right now.

M.
The Vinelander
Nah, I don't get annoyed over a wind-bag like you, buddy. You're ascribing yourself way too much power.
Oh BS Don.

Are you an idiot or just trying to pretend to be one?
RTT_Rules
Actually the most glaringly obvious one is your complete inability to explain why - if renewables are supposedly cheaper than fossil fuels - is the price of power in Australia going through the roof?

In fact the more that 'renewables' make their ingress into our grid, the more and more expensive our electricity gets - yet we've been repeatedly told that the inverse is true and that they'll make things cheaper. When can we expect things to get cheaper; will it be next year? The year after?

So can you explain that or should we add it to that long (and growing) list of things about renewable energy that you have either got wrong or simply can't answer?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Now we wait for the predictable answer - "I say it's true so you have to prove me wrong."
Valvegear
You possess (at least half) a rational brain that can analyse things. So if unreliables are cheaper then why is power going through the roof? Think about it.

We're being lied to is the answer.

Meanwhile, the UK is finding out quickly that being a 'renewable energy superpower' isn't compatible with having a modern manufacturing base - their car industry (or what's left of it) is contemplating packing up and leaving... for France with its cheaper nuclear energy (of course) - Daily Mail;

It's not just households who are facing escalating gas and electricity bills.

Britain's automotive sector has today spoken out about facing a 50 per cent increase in energy costs this year, which is putting British businesses at a 'competitive disadvantage' against rivals in the EU.

The sector's annual energy bill – which is already £50million more than its European Union rivals – will rise by £90million in 2022, analysis by the trade body Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders says. It says the Government must act now to do all it can to protect the future of the motor sector, which is one of the nation's biggest employers.

The UK automotive industry has 156,400 workers directly employed in manufacturing roles and a broader 797,300 workers employed in total across the wider sector, including retail and finance, according to the latest figures.

However, the sector is at threat with energy bills soaring.

UK electricity prices are the most expensive of any European automotive manufacturing country and 59 per cent above the EU average, according to the SMMT.

The industry body said this means UK firms could have saved nearly £50million annually if they were buying energy in the EU even before this year's spike in prices.

We can't sustain a modern industrial society with sunshine and breezes - it can't be done. All the jobs are going to countries WITHOUT renewable zealotry.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Oh BS Don.

Are you an idiot or just trying to pretend to be one?
Actually the most glaringly obvious one is your complete inability to explain why - if renewables are supposedly cheaper than fossil fuels - is the price of power in Australia going through the roof?

In fact the more that 'renewables' make their ingress into our grid, the more and more expensive our electricity gets - yet we've been repeatedly told that the inverse is true and that they'll make things cheaper. When can we expect things to get cheaper; will it be next year? The year after?

So can you explain that or should we add it to that long (and growing) list of things about renewable energy that you have either got wrong or simply can't answer?
don_dunstan
why Don, why do we have to do this all again?

1) SA has the lowest or equal lowest Wholesale price, 2/3 that of Qld and has been for a number of years

2) Qld has the highest whole sale price

3) Global peak in gas and coal prices have driven up the cost of generation exposed to global markets

4) One power station in NSW didn't secure a coal contract, why who knows, who cares but the knock on effect should be obvious.

5) Prior to the current global energy spike in prices which started towards the end of 2021 due to a combination of global recovery from CV, lack of shipping capacity and numerous other logistics and supply chain issues that has affected EVERYTHING and then rose again because of YOUR MATE and the response ie sactions towards what YOUR MATE did until he stops.

6) OFFS Time and Time and Time again Don, its getting so boring. LCOE data is VERY CLEAR
https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/levelised-cost-of-electricity-lcoe-for-solar-pv-and-coal-fired-power-plants-in-india-in-the-new-policies-scenario-2020-2040

Coal LCOE costs are around USD $80 - 100 /MWh longterm average. Thats alot more than SA was paying for its wholesale power for the last 5 years and its coal fired power costs were higher due to the limited options available to SA.

7) One more for you, complaiants about Wind and Solar are made overseas, solar especially China. Guess where the last few coal power stations were made? Simply imported in pre-assembled and loaded on trucks to be plug and play.

8) Which countries sell coal fired power station technology today?

9) How many times does the same answers to your same dead smeg boring lame smeg questions need to be stated?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Now we wait for the predictable answer - "I say it's true so you have to prove me wrong."
You possess (at least half) a rational brain that can analyse things. So if unreliables are cheaper then why is power going through the roof? Think about it.

We're being lied to is the answer.

Meanwhile, the UK is finding out quickly that being a 'renewable energy superpower' isn't compatible with having a modern manufacturing base - their car industry (or what's left of it) is contemplating packing up and leaving... for France with its cheaper nuclear energy (of course) - Daily Mail;

It's not just households who are facing escalating gas and electricity bills.

Britain's automotive sector has today spoken out about facing a 50 per cent increase in energy costs this year, which is putting British businesses at a 'competitive disadvantage' against rivals in the EU.

The sector's annual energy bill – which is already £50million more than its European Union rivals – will rise by £90million in 2022, analysis by the trade body Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders says. It says the Government must act now to do all it can to protect the future of the motor sector, which is one of the nation's biggest employers.

The UK automotive industry has 156,400 workers directly employed in manufacturing roles and a broader 797,300 workers employed in total across the wider sector, including retail and finance, according to the latest figures.

However, the sector is at threat with energy bills soaring.

UK electricity prices are the most expensive of any European automotive manufacturing country and 59 per cent above the EU average, according to the SMMT.

The industry body said this means UK firms could have saved nearly £50million annually if they were buying energy in the EU even before this year's spike in prices.

We can't sustain a modern industrial society with sunshine and breezes - it can't be done. All the jobs are going to countries WITHOUT renewable zealotry.
don_dunstan
Don Logic 101

Case A
In last 12mths, global markets for
Price of gas has gone up
Price of coal has gone up
Price of diesel has gone up
Price of Oil has gone up
Price of Uranium has gone up

Has the price of actual wind used for wind farms gone up? NO!
Has the price of actual sun used for solar gone up? NO!
Has the price of water used in hydro gone up? NO!
Has the price of water used pumped hydro gone up? NO!

Answer, it must be wind and solar's fault for the sudden rapid increase in power costs over the last 6mths despite a steady decline leading up to 2021 for previous 5 years.

Case B
Don says  "All the jobs are going to countries WITHOUT renewable zealotry."

Which Don usually means China.

2021
Australia RE contribution to grid - 33% (includes hydro) 25% without hydro
China RE contribution to grid - 28% and rising faster than Australia (12% of which is hydro)

China's RE invest over next 5 years, count them out Don USD $ 895 Billion!
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/5/19/chinas-climate-goal-overhauling-its-electricity-grid

China's growth area of RE, Wind.
2021, 3 x the total Australian electricty production came from just wind in China.

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