Can someone please tell me what a D car was

 
  Hitachi_178M Hitachi's Are Us

Location: Portland/Heywood/Hamilton
can someone please tell me what a D car was and the reason they were converted into M cars? and why dont melbourne bring back the gards vans (driver and both ends like sydney)

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  ninthnotch Dr Beeching

Location: Not here. Try another castle.
A D car is a driving trailer - i.e. the driver can drive the train, but there's no mechanicals or motors.

Swingdoors, Taits and 'Tachis and the 4D had 'em (although Taits didn't have them when built).

Hitachi D cars got converted to T cars in the late 1970's due to driver union concerns over the space that they afforded; this may have been started after 353D had a terrirtorial dispute with a Z van at Pakenham in 1979.

The reason for no guards was due primarily to Kennett cost-cutting.
  Hitachi_178M Hitachi's Are Us

Location: Portland/Heywood/Hamilton
will they ever bring the gaurds back on the melbourne train's sydney can still keep then why cant we
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere

will they ever bring the gaurds back on the melbourne train's

I'll just check my crystal ball ........................

But I'm not holding my breath on this one.


sydney can still keep then why cant we

One word ... Kennett.
  ninthnotch Dr Beeching

Location: Not here. Try another castle.

will they ever bring the gaurds back on the melbourne train's

I'll just check my crystal ball ...

"Gwiwer"
Kinky...
  T411 Moderator

Location: Somewhere
will they ever bring the gaurds back on the melbourne train's sydney can still keep then why cant we
"Brad6669"

Do we really need to have the guards back though? Particulary towards the end, 99% of the time they were not much more then professional passengers. We seem to cope well enough without them and have done so for many years now.
  Railfan9949 Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere between Gembrook to Healesville to Seymour to Maldon

will they ever bring the gaurds back on the melbourne train's

I'll just check my crystal ball ...

"Gwiwer"
Kinky...
"ninthnotch"


Do I dare ask what you saw in your vision from the crystal ball?
  savethehumans Chief Train Controller

Location: Melbourne 3004
Guards are pretty much a waste of money.  

That said, platform staff manning the gates (after putting the gates back in place) wouldn't hurt and would handle the crowd control/safety/visibility role which is the only reason you'd want to bring back Guards.  They'd also help counter fare evasion and passengers holding doors open.

Deadmans systems, Vigilance (if/where it exists) and CCTV cameras (particularly the ones at suburban stations with block-out shutters) have covered just about every other function that Guards performed.
  Hitachi_178M Hitachi's Are Us

Location: Portland/Heywood/Hamilton
the trains run alot better when we had them cause the drivers cant see the back door in peak times and the gaurds can and when a train runs last when it gets the the end of the line they can get the train going faster when theres a driver all ready in the other end
  T411 Moderator

Location: Somewhere
the trains run alot better when we had them cause the drivers cant see the back door in peak times and the gaurds can and when a train runs last when it gets the the end of the line they can get the train going faster when theres a driver all ready in the other end
"Brad6669"

Back in the days when trains had guards, at a terminus both crew members had to change to their respective ends. Guards wern't qualified to drive and drives wern't qualified to guard.

I still can't see the advantage of bringing guards back, to save one or two minutes each peak (if that) could not be justified by the cost alone. I think savethehumans has a valid point with extra station staff and maybe on board customer service staff (conductors on country trains) would be beneficial as opposed to a man standing at the back of a train doing not much.
  psr85 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sandringham Line, Melbourne
the trains run alot better when we had them cause the drivers cant see the back door in peak times and the gaurds can and when a train runs last when it gets the the end of the line they can get the train going faster when theres a driver all ready in the other end
"Brad6669"
Nice grammar, punctuation... When are the "Postwhore Clan" T-Shirts coming out?
  ninthnotch Dr Beeching

Location: Not here. Try another castle.
When are the "Postwhore Clan" T-Shirts coming out?
"psr85"


There's a T-shirt with just such a slogan here if anyone's interested...
  psr85 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sandringham Line, Melbourne
When are the "Postwhore Clan" T-Shirts coming out?
"psr85"


There's a T-shirt with just such a slogan here if anyone's interested...
"ninthnotch"
I just bought me a dozen.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Given that Connex has recently had a shortage of drivers and cancelled trains when one crew member was not available, how many more cancellations would eventuate if a crew of two was required?

Sydney might have a guard on every train (whose functions are covered in the main by the driver and automated audible warning tones in Melbourne) but they also suffer higher rates of cancellation through staffing problems.

I don't dispute that a guard is an additional level of onboard  safety as both another hand on the brake and a human presence aboard.  To this extent some would argue they are desireable.

If trains are considered to be safely operable without them (as happens on many systems worldwide - the London Underground for instance runs longer trains than Melbourne, is far more crowded, and has no guards) then apart form the issue of un/employment then I say let's run driver only trains.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
the drivers cant see the back door in peak times
"Brad6669"

Not so. If they can't see the back door they don't move.

I don't dispute that a guard is an additional level of onboard  safety as both another hand on the brake and a human presence aboard.  To this extent some would argue they are desireable.
"Gwiwer"

Remembering Waterfall, and the survey of guards that came out of it, I don't think that function is really there. IIRC most guards were unwilling to pull the tail (put the brakes on) because they knew the driver would bawl them out for interfering with his driving. I can't say I blame them either.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Hitachi D cars got converted to T cars in the late 1970's due to driver union concerns over the space that they afforded; this may have been started after 353D had a terrirtorial dispute with a Z van at Pakenham in 1979.
"ninthnotch"
They were converted as M-T-T-M+M-D sets are not symetrical, and this is not ideal for City Loop operations where trains get turned when passing through the loop.  With M-T-M+M-T-M sets, it does not matter that a train gets turned when going through the loop, its the same when it comes out as when it went in.
  angus42 Chief Train Controller

Location: Around Kyneton-Melbourne
Given that Connex has recently had a shortage of drivers and cancelled trains when one crew member was not available, how many more cancellations would eventuate if a crew of two was required?
"Gwiwer"


That was happening in Melbourne in the last years before driver-only operation.  Evening peak announcements for delays sometimes included "waiting for the guard to arrive"; likewise for trains starting from outer-suburban stabling points.

Guards in Sydney are in the train (like VLP conductors), not confined to a separate compartment as they were in Melbourne.

However, in general, if there's trouble on the train a single staff member can become a target; therefore a group of two or more is better.

A D car is a driving trailer - i.e. the driver can drive the train, but there's no mechanicals or motors.

Swingdoors, Taits and 'Tachis and the 4D had 'em (although Taits didn't have them when built).
"ninthnotch"


You sure about Taits?  My Metro WTT of 4 Oct. 1965 lists three types of D: 9 carriages each of 7 compartments, swing doors; 10 of 8 compartments, swing; plus 25 of 8 compartments, sliding.  But it doesn't have any separate entry for "ringers" i.e. those Tait cars with guard/driver compartment not equipped with driving controls nor with the guard's perch and brakes; so called because there was a circle painted on the door, to distinguish them from crew space.  My recollection (without books at hand to check) is that some Tait Ds existed but were seldom used, because it was easier to have stable Tait blocks and units and concentrate coupling and uncoupling 2-car sets on swingdoor trains.  But I could be wrong.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

If memory serves me correct, but this was a long time ago, some poster on this site told me the Taits that were converted to D cars were all destroyed by a lightning strike.

On the other hand that may have been double ended Swingdoor motors...? Embarassed
  Hitachi_178M Hitachi's Are Us

Location: Portland/Heywood/Hamilton
has anyone got pics od a d class?
  savethehumans Chief Train Controller

Location: Melbourne 3004
Guards in Sydney are in the train (like VLP conductors), not confined to a separate compartment as they were in Melbourne.
"angus42"


Umm, what Sydney are you referring to?  The Guard in a Sydney, Wollongong or Newcastle Train is in a compartment at the rear of a 2 or 4 car train and towards or at the centre of a 6 or 8 car train.  He has no ability to control the doors, bell or brakes if he's wandering the train and thus never leaves the compartment.

There are packs of rent-a-cops that patrol some trains, but they are separate to the Guards.

I believe you're confusing Sydney with Brisbane.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

has anyone got pics od a d class?
"Brad6669"
There is no such thing as a D class, its justa  D carriage.  It basically looks like an M, but with no pantos and less junk under the belly.  A few other differences, such as window positions are also evident, at least with the Hitachi.
  angus42 Chief Train Controller

Location: Around Kyneton-Melbourne

Umm, what Sydney are you referring to?  The Guard in a Sydney, Wollongong or Newcastle Train is in a compartment at the rear of a 2 or 4 car train and towards or at the centre of a 6 or 8 car train.  He has no ability to control the doors, bell or brakes if he's wandering the train and thus never leaves the compartment.

There are packs of rent-a-cops that patrol some trains, but they are separate to the Guards.

I believe you're confusing Sydney with Brisbane.
"savethehumans"


Darn, confused again (and wrong again).  Sorry for that.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere

M-T-T-M+M-D sets are not symetrical, and this is not ideal for City Loop operations

Whilst this is true I have also read reports suggesting that the original M-T-T-M Hitachi formations were found to be underpowered.  Reconfiguring them as M-T-M gave the same number of motors powering 1½ cars instead of 2 and made them more acceptable.

Two D cars remain in service as trailers.  1999T and 2007T still retain the sealed driver's cab at one end and to this day have a different seating configuration to other Hitachi trailers as a result.  Most but not all were rebuilt to full trailer specification at the time the second batch of motors arrived to allow the reconfiguration to take place.

D cars still run in Sydney and surrounds in various sets.  The type codes there are more elaborate, but for example an OD car is an Outer suburban Tangara Driving (but not motored) car.  Don't confuse the InterCity sets which all have D as their first letter of the car code - D before all other letters simply indicates Inter City emu stock.
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
has anyone got pics od a d class?
"Brad6669"

Time to break these out again. Smile

As ninthnotch mentioned earlier, the Hitachi D cars were converted, but some were just stripped of driving equipment and covered up.

1999T, former D car, with the windows and communicaton door covered up: (There is also another ex-D car (2007T) that is similar but has the end door removed)
[img]http://thumbs.fotopic.net/393017000748.jpg[/img]

1979T, converted from 359D. It has the entire cab cut off, and a new section welded into place. You can just see the join in the pic:
[img]http://thumbs.fotopic.net/343020000133.jpg[/img]

Does anyone have pics of the 2-car Hitachi sets in service? (with D cars in use)

- With the 4D, the D cars were up the front, and were the only cabs. It is non-standard compared to the M/T/D designations given to Melbourne stock.

- For Swingdoors and Taits someone else will have to stump up the pics.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner


M-T-T-M+M-D sets are not symetrical, and this is not ideal for City Loop operations

Whilst this is true I have also read reports suggesting that the original M-T-T-M Hitachi formations were found to be underpowered.  Reconfiguring them as M-T-M gave the same number of motors powering 1½ cars instead of 2 and made them more acceptable.

Two D cars remain in service as trailers.  1999T and 2007T still retain the sealed driver's cab at one end and to this day have a different seating configuration to other Hitachi trailers as a result.  Most but not all were rebuilt to full trailer specification at the time the second batch of motors arrived to allow the reconfiguration to take place.
"Gwiwer"
Did all of the "partially converted" D cars have the 1999T/2007T style arrangement...I never caught many D's.   2007T still has the nose door between the two front windows (oops, that would be 1999T).

I remember that some Hitachi carriages (M's I think) actually seem to have a makeshift wall behind the driver...with no door, and the floor wasnt actually joined to the wall: indeed it half covered a floor access panel.  Maybe these were actually ex D's that were better converted than 1999T/2007T...but I really thought they were M's...

Now I think about it, I think they were D's that had the wall moved back to create more room... Question

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