End of Loco-hauled Pax in Victoria ?

 
  Edith Chief Commissioner

Location: Line 1 from Porte de Vincennes bound for Bastille station
For over a year I have been corresponding with the state government on particulate pollution from V/Line Diesels around Spencer Street.  There is a national voluntary reporting mechanism for emissions (the National Pollution Inventory, managed in Victoria by the EPA) and V/Line has volunteered not to do it.   As part of the to-ing and fro-ing, I did get one letter from the DOI which had this to say.  I thought that you might be interested.

Over the last five years, the Government commenced updating its country passenger rolling stock, opting for the Vlocity passenger cars in preference to locomotive-hauled carriages.  Vlocity engines comply with Euro 2 emission standards.  The Department of Infrastructure (DOI) and V/Line are considering options to replace locomotive-hauled passenger carriages in future acquisition programs.


By the way, Euro 2 for diesel engines is still far from best practice.  For heavy road vehicles, we are now introducing Euro 4.  Euro 5, due in about 5 years, will have emissions (other than CO2 and water vapour) "cleaner than the ambient air".  

The Euro 2 emission standard of the Vlocities is still a long way ahead of the vast majority of locomotives on the rails in Australia.

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  skitz Chief Commissioner

Yeah, eventually, but you would not reckon that would be the sole reason to get rid of the asset prematurely.  It would be unlikely it would be applied retrospectively either.
  Edith Chief Commissioner

Location: Line 1 from Porte de Vincennes bound for Bastille station
I did not expect that pollution would be the reason for locos to be replaced.  I was just wondering if the Ns, which are only 20 years old, would go back to hauling freight once they are retired from passenger service.  I suppose that the carriages might still have life in them, too.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I did not expect that pollution would be the reason for locos to be replaced.  I was just wondering if the Ns, which are only 20 years old, would go back to hauling freight once they are retired from passenger service.  I suppose that the carriages might still have life in them, too.
"Edith"


A few points here.

V Line are refurbishing their carriages and in some cases increasing the capacity of the N sets. See http://www.vlinecars.com.au for more information

The N class locomotives use the older 12 cylinder EMD 645 series engine, which can be replaced with the newer 12 cylinder EMD 710 series which is cleaner and more fuel efficient.

Locomotives are a better option for trains of 4 - 6 cars over longer distances with fewer stops, which is the current long haul set up in Victoria. Eg Albury

New designs of diesel electric locomotibes that are very clean and economical are already in service in Europe. Eg The GE - Bombardier Blue Tiger and the EMD Euro 4000 series.

Locomotives will be around for a long time to come and they will be pulling passenger trains.
  mjja Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
Over the last five years, the Government commenced updating its country passenger rolling stock, opting for the Vlocity passenger cars in preference to locomotive-hauled carriages.  Vlocity engines comply with Euro 2 emission standards.  The Department of Infrastructure (DOI) and V/Line are considering options to replace locomotive-hauled passenger carriages in future acquisition programs.

"Considering options" in "future acquisition programs" - in other words, when the time comes to buy things, we'll make them cleaner than the things they replace.

I should think so. In fact, I doubt they would be ABLE to get something dirtier, even if they tried!

As I understand it, particulate matter is either impurities in the fuel, or unburnt fuel. With the price of diesel going the way it is, fuel economy is even more important than it has been since the first oil crisis in the 70s. Nobody is going to buy anything that pours fuel out the exhaust pipe.

By the way, Euro 2 for diesel engines is still far from best practice.  For heavy road vehicles, we are now introducing Euro 4.  Euro 5, due in about 5 years, will have emissions (other than CO2 and water vapour) "cleaner than the ambient air".
"Edith"

Pretty good - so to clean up our air we just run it through a diesel engine! Laughing Then we plant a billion trees to mop up the CO2.

What will be left for Euro 6?
  Mickelaar The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: At the layout, tinkering.
Why do people keep saying the N series are on their way out. They're a freckle off new, they're a workhorse! People N class isnt going anywhere!
  Shacks Ghanzel

Location: Sir Big Lens of the Distant Upper Hunter
I thought we had a topic on this subject going already, it was titled something like "N Class withdrawl"

The N's are going to be around for a long time on pax trains.
  vlinecars V/Man - "Yeah!"

Location: Here, there, everywhere!
Let me clear everything up once and for all.

Locomotive hauled services will remain in operation with V/Line Passenger for quite some time, predominantly hauled by N Class locos.

Some A's and P's, and possibly a sole Y, will most likely be sold to the highest bidder (PN or CFCLA)

The BS cars have already been retired from revenue services, with all now being in storage at Newport Workshops.

H sets will be the first type of car sets to be withdrawn from service, but this wont be for a while yet either!

Anything else???
  adman_srv Locomotive Driver

quite funny, that some believe that the N's will dissapear so early in life,
they are a beaute machine, and very young if you compare them with some locos gettinjg around these days,

if they withdrew N's completely from service they may as well withdrawl, A's G's, X's, T's H's ect,  

the N's are very efficient in thier opperation, and are more than ideal for passenger trains, and you will rarely see an N with black smoke pluming from the stack!!
  A no 1 Chief Commissioner

Location: I see a Seagoon
Yes I can see a day when there is no loco hauled passenger trains in Victoria. New South Wales is the example also a lot more progressive in introducing more progressive rollingstock. This is not just in the last 20 or so years with the XPTs Tangaras etc it goes back decades just compare an R class With a 38 Victoria is only just catching up with technology that has been in use in other state and overseas for years!
  A no 1 Chief Commissioner

Location: I see a Seagoon
quite funny, that some believe that the N's will dissapear so early in life,
they are a beaute machine, and very young if you compare them with some locos gettinjg around these days,

if they withdrew N's completely from service they may as well withdrawl, A's G's, X's, T's H's ect,  

the N's are very efficient in thier opperation, and are more than ideal for passenger trains, and you will rarely see an N with black smoke pluming from the stack!!
"adman_srv"
I don't think they would sell one loco just after they have ALL been fitted with TPWS that cost a fortune! The only V/Line Locos not fitted with TPWS is the Y class locos
  steamkiwi Train Controller

Location: Western Victoria
I did not expect that pollution would be the reason for locos to be replaced.  I was just wondering if the Ns, which are only 20 years old, would go back to hauling freight once they are retired from passenger service.  I suppose that the carriages might still have life in them, too.
"Edith"


A few points here.

V Line are refurbishing their carriages and in some cases increasing the capacity of the N sets. See http://www.vlinecars.com.au for more information

The N class locomotives use the older 12 cylinder EMD 645 series engine, which can be replaced with the newer 12 cylinder EMD 710 series which is cleaner and more fuel efficient.

Locomotives are a better option for trains of 4 - 6 cars over longer distances with fewer stops, which is the current long haul set up in Victoria. Eg Albury

New designs of diesel electric locomotibes that are very clean and economical are already in service in Europe. Eg The GE - Bombardier Blue Tiger and the EMD Euro 4000 series.

Locomotives will be around for a long time to come and they will be pulling passenger trains.
"Duncs"


Just a couple of points here -

The requirements for road and rail are different when it comes to pollution requirements. The Cummins QSK19R as fitted to the V/Locities is pretty much state of the art for a heavy off-road/rail vehicle.

As far as the GM 2 strokes are concerned - GET RID OF THE LOT OF THE STINKING NOISY POLLUTING THINGS!!
They do not and never in any form will meet any of the current pollution requirements, and are worst on the NOX and SOX production, where they are many orders of magnitude higher than an equivalent 4 stroke. This is caused by combustion temperatures and pressures, which are an inherent part of any two stroke engine unless very slow revving, long stroke and small bore - stroke:bore ratio of >4.
This problem is the reason for the demise in the USA of GM as a builder, when they couldn't get the Deutz 4 stroke (H Series) to work properly GE beat the pants off them, and continue to do so.
Interesting as a sideline that Toll in NZ appear to not be considering GM for new loco purchases.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

As I mentioned earlier, the 12 -645 series engine for the N class can be replaced with the 12 - 710 series. I have since looked into this further and discovered that:-

Last year EMD successfully modified the 12 - 710 series to be US Tier 2 complient, which is the equivalent to the Euro 2 standard mentioned earlier.  

The N class is of a size and shape that would take the 12 - 710 series engine. In fact similar sized locomotives already operate with the 12 cylinder 710 series. There is one at Comalco and also the 82 Series.

I would not be so foolish as to predict the premature demise of the N class. In fact with a more powerful 12 - 710 series engine they would have more horse power and not have to work as hard as the smaller 12 - 645 series. Incidentally 645 stands for 645 cubic inches (10.5 litres) per cylinder and 710 for 710 cubuc inches (11.5 litres).
  DMU Dave Train Controller

Location: Hawthorn, VIC
quite funny, that some believe that the N's will dissapear so early in life,
they are a beaute machine, and very young if you compare them with some locos gettinjg around these days,

if they withdrew N's completely from service they may as well withdrawl, A's G's, X's, T's H's ect,  

the N's are very efficient in thier opperation, and are more than ideal for passenger trains, and you will rarely see an N with black smoke pluming from the stack!!
"adman_srv"


adman_srv, I agree with you (and others in this thread) that the N's are not likely to be withdrawn from passenger service in the foreseeable future.  But it doesn't logically follow that other classes will not be withdrawn.  The T's (not in service with V-Line, but still used by other operators) are over 50 years old.  And the A's are, of course, rebuilt B's which are equally aged (albeit refurbished).  As for the Y's, they run around on recycled Tait bogies.

Regards
DMU Dave
  hally Train Controller

Location: Splitting the Eaton up into 18th

the N's are very efficient in thier opperation, and are more than ideal for passenger trains, and you will rarely see an N with black smoke pluming from the stack!!
"adman_srv"


Spot on!  The EMD 645 in the N's is not only roots blown like in the X's, its got a  nice big turbo on the front, so they are powered up slowly to prevent turbo lag. No mater how fast you whack her up into 8th even with the reverser centered she'l gently rev up....However if you put your hand on the layshaft and give it a push, you  can make a N blow some serious smoke!  
Anyway they were built to drag pass trains and thats what there doing. And as the drivers will agree, there much better to drive than most other locos.
  clownswilleatme Deputy Commissioner

The N's will end up like the Hitachis

When they go they'll go quickly but there'll be a small group that'll hang around for much longer to plug the gaps when a DMU fails.

If a DMU drops its guts they'll send out the mighty N to rescue it.
  DMU Dave Train Controller

Location: Hawthorn, VIC
Locomotives are a better option for trains of 4 - 6 cars over longer distances with fewer stops, which is the current long haul set up in Victoria. Eg Albury
"Duncs"


Duncs, I'm interested in the reasons for this?  Is it better fuel consumption?  Interesting that in the UK they've eliminated loco-hauled trains on the West Coast Main Line and many cross country routes, in favour of the Voyager, which is a 4 or 5-car DMU (depending on configuration).  And Voyagers run routes as long as 5 or more hours (e.g. Penzance to Birmingham; Birmingham to Aberdeen).

Regards
DMU Dave
  vlinecars V/Man - "Yeah!"

Location: Here, there, everywhere!
The N's will end up like the Hitachis

When they go they'll go quickly but there'll be a small group that'll hang around for much longer to plug the gaps when a DMU fails.

If a DMU drops its guts they'll send out the mighty N to rescue it.
"clownswilleatme"


Yes, in another 30 years time...
  Mickelaar The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: At the layout, tinkering.
Who started this tripe about N class being withdrawn anyways?? It's really getting irritating now.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Locomotives are a better option for trains of 4 - 6 cars over longer distances with fewer stops, which is the current long haul set up in Victoria. Eg Albury
"Duncs"


Duncs, I'm interested in the reasons for this?  Is it better fuel consumption?  Interesting that in the UK they've eliminated loco-hauled trains on the West Coast Main Line and many cross country routes, in favour of the Voyager, which is a 4 or 5-car DMU (depending on configuration).  And Voyagers run routes as long as 5 or more hours (e.g. Penzance to Birmingham; Birmingham to Aberdeen).

Regards
DMU Dave
"DMU Dave"


Hi Dave

I suspect that in the UK they went to the Voyager as an upgrade from the Inter City 125. You are looking at 200kph trains versus 115 kph trains here. Also most of the locomotives were from the 1970's and were wearing out. Even so there is the type 67 locomotive (made by EMD) in the UK that does 200kph. It does mail, freight and some passenger work.

Incidentally in Ireland there is the EMD 201 series (3200hp) that does 160kph and pulls passenger trains from Dublin to Cork (the equivalent of Melbourne to Warrnambool) in a 2 hours 40 minutes express service.


Recently the Irish Railways introduced new carriages for this service to improve comfort and frequency. They did buy some new DMU's as well but will use them for the shorter stop - start routes.
  mjh Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
Locomotives are a better option for trains of 4 - 6 cars over longer distances with fewer stops, which is the current long haul set up in Victoria. Eg Albury
"Duncs"


Duncs, I'm interested in the reasons for this?  Is it better fuel consumption?  Interesting that in the UK they've eliminated loco-hauled trains on the West Coast Main Line and many cross country routes, in favour of the Voyager, which is a 4 or 5-car DMU (depending on configuration).  And Voyagers run routes as long as 5 or more hours (e.g. Penzance to Birmingham; Birmingham to Aberdeen).

Regards
DMU Dave
"DMU Dave"


Hi Dave

I suspect that in the UK they went to the Voyager as an upgrade from the Inter City 125. You are looking at 200kph trains versus 115 kph trains here. Also most of the locomotives were from the 1970's and were wearing out. Even so there is the type 67 locomotive (made by EMD) in the UK that does 200kph. It does mail, freight and some passenger work.

Incidentally in Ireland there is the EMD 201 series (3200hp) that does 160kph and pulls passenger trains from Dublin to Cork (the equivalent of Melbourne to Warrnambool) in a 2 hours 40 minutes express service.


Recently the Irish Railways introduced new carriages for this service to improve comfort and frequency. They did buy some new DMU's as well but will use them for the shorter stop - start routes.
"Duncs"


Voyagers replaced some HSTs but also 1960's locos and stock (class 47 and Mk2 coaches). The displaced HSTs are still going, have been leased instead by GNER and FGW for the East Coast and Western Mainlines.
The WCML went over to Pendolino electric units, replacing electric locos (87s from the 70s scrapped, 90s from the er..90s, cascaded to 'one' for the Anglian services London-Norwich).  
The Midland Mainline dropped some HSTs for 'Meridian' an improved variant of the Voyager.
The ECML (London KX to Yorkshire/North East/ Scotland) is still loco hauled - class 91 electrics with Mk4 stock, and HSTs with Mk3 stock.
The western routes out of London to the West, South West and South Wales are still HSTs being re-engined with MTUs.

Virgin, who introduced Pendolino and Voyager units on those long hauls, have come in for some flack. Although passenger feedback has been favourable, and the new fleet has allowed increased frequencies that have drawn in new passengers they are expensive and inefficient units and are less environmentally friendly than there predecessors.

67s were designed by EMD but built under contract in Spain. They were specifically for mail services, which all but evaporated a couple of years after they were introduced  Rolling Eyes They still have a couple of mail contracts, charter trains (no booked passenger trains), her Maj.'s personal train, and a couple of lightweight freights (general feedback on UK forums being that they could not pull the skin off a rice puddin'  Laughing )

Units are 1) generally cheaper 2) offer operational convenience 3) tend to accelerate away quicker.
  Mickelaar The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: At the layout, tinkering.
I hope your not suggesting something that virgin rail has done, should mean that the N class should go. The N will be here for years... the longer the better i say... put an order in for more... N Class is here to stay - so stop saying otherwise
  TBP Minister for Railways

Location: Singleton
I did not expect that pollution would be the reason for locos to be replaced. I was just wondering if the Ns, which are only 20 years old, would go back to hauling freight once they are retired from passenger service. I suppose that the carriages might still have life in them, too.


If it was the steam days, you would have no choice, how about replacing a few N's with R class, J class, D3 & A2 class 8)
  ninthnotch Dr Beeching

Location: Not here. Try another castle.
I did not expect that pollution would be the reason for locos to be replaced. I was just wondering if the Ns, which are only 20 years old, would go back to hauling freight once they are retired from passenger service. I suppose that the carriages might still have life in them, too.


If it was the steam days, you would have no choice, how about replacing a few N's with R class, J class, D3 & A2 class 8)
"SMR30"

The relevance of this comment was what, Paul?  

Yes, because there's a-plnety of running A2's...Rolling Eyes
  nonscenic Locomotive Fireman

Location: Southern Cross by day
The Euro 2 emission standard of the Vlocities is still a long way ahead of the vast majority of locomotives on the rails in Australia.[/quote]

Certainly S301 (trailing with A79 leading) was nowhere near any emission standards as it started on an eastbound freight from the back lines of Southern Cross towards the viaduct yesterday afternoon. Incidentally work is still progressing on platforms 15 and 16 at Southern Cross, with platform 16 outside the glass wall. Will this become the platform for remaining loco hauled services (diesel and steam)?

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