SAR/CR Trivia #24

 
  xdford Chief Train Controller






OK A quickie Trivia question just to keep the ball rolling

How many speeds did a Red Hen have in the Gear box? What speed did the "Top Gear" engage?

Regards

Trevor



"xdford"
Was it two speeds? and "Top Gear"was "LockuP"


"AFULE"


"Top Gear" was indeed Lockup AFULE ...  so as the two parter ,  how many actual speeds and what speed did Top Gear engage?,

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  steam4ian Chief Commissioner




OK A quickie Trivia question just to keep the ball rolling

How many speeds did a Red Hen have in the Gear box? What speed did the "Top Gear" engage?

Regards

Trevor



"xdford"


I always understood that there wasn't a gear box just a torque convertor and lock up.

Certainly there was no noticable gear change rev variation from the engines except at lock up.

Lock occurred at near 40 mph without control from the driver, there was no lock-up button like the Blue Birds. The lock up also depended on engine revs and I noticed that some motor men deliberately pushed the throttle forward above about 35 mph which dropped the engine revs to train speed and caused the transmisssion to lock up, you could feel the lock up and then they pulled the throttle back again, acceleration was faster that way.

Unlike some here I never drove or serviced a RH just watched and listened, and probably got it wrong.

Regards
Ian

  xdford Chief Train Controller






OK A quickie Trivia question just to keep the ball rolling

How many speeds did a Red Hen have in the Gear box? What speed did the "Top Gear" engage?

Regards

Trevor



"xdford"


I always understood that there wasn't a gear box just a torque convertor and lock up.

Certainly there was no noticable gear change rev variation from the engines except at lock up.

Lock occurred at near 40 mph without control from the driver, there was no lock-up button like the Blue Birds. The lock up also depended on engine revs and I noticed that some motor men deliberately pushed the throttle forward above about 35 mph which dropped the engine revs to train speed and caused the transmisssion to lock up, you could feel the lock up and then they pulled the throttle back again, acceleration was faster that way.

Unlike some here I never drove or serviced a RH just watched and listened, and probably got it wrong.

Regards
Ian

"steam4ian"
,

No you have not got it wrong. The speed switch was set at 38mph at which lockup did take place dropping the motor revs down when the clutch took over and it was strictly speaking a single speed torque converter. The motor man did not actually have to do anything and most left the throttle at full bore. I also witnessed the dropping of the throttle as you did and thought it must have been a manual change of gear. I  remember arguing the point especially at a club but then watched more closely at some operations with other drivers.

Interestingly enough, the Rolls motored versions (343(?) to 362) had a very similar torque curve.  Red Hen acceleration was always regarded  as their weak point - up to about 17 mph was fairly rapid then it was a relatively slow climb to the 38 mark and it may have been much better with a different gearing perhaps ala the NSW 620/720 sets or slightly more HP or both. Over to yourself or AFULE...

Regards

Trevor

  steam4ian Chief Commissioner


I get some thngs right!

The RHs were very sluggish above 30 mph but could take off like a startled rabbit. Their low speed acceleration was enough to make them look faster than the 3000s. (Or was it the noise?) I guess the latter won out at the top end as they seemed to have a more constant acceleration which is what you would expect from their ac drive system.

I don't much as have trivia, rather BS.

Over to you AFULE

  Guard Class 2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Elizabeth,South Australia
I was of the understanding they did have a toggle switch which could override the lockup. i.e. would hold it in the torque setting.
  xdford Chief Train Controller




I was of the understanding they did have a toggle switch which could override the lockup. i.e. would hold it in the torque setting.

"Guard Class 2"


I cannot say that I remember such a switch in the circuitry. Was it on the control panel? Perhaps it was to be used on gradients if the speed got to lockup but I cannot imagine where it would be used short of express services through the hills? Having said that I last worked on a Red hen in 1974... time does dim the memory!

Just interested

Regards

Trevor

  steam4ian Chief Commissioner






I was of the understanding they did have a toggle switch which could override the lockup. i.e. would hold it in the torque setting.

"Guard Class 2"


I cannot say that I remember such a switch in the circuitry. Was it on the control panel? Perhaps it was to be used on gradients if the speed got to lockup but I cannot imagine where it would be used short of express services through the hills? Having said that I last worked on a Red hen in 1974... time does dim the memory!

Just interested

Regards

Trevor

"xdford"


There was a toggle switch on the apron of the sloping control desk just to the right (I think) of the throttle lever. The head light rotary switch was nearby more to the right.
Whether that switch was a lock-up defeat I can't say but wonder why they would want it considering it didn't occur until well over 30mph.

The problem with the torque converter is that the torque falls away with speed, lots of torque low down and hence initial acceleration. For the 3000s the torque is constant due to the ac drive system.

On a BB with manual lock-up switching the motor/s could be stalled is the motor man braked to slow with the lock-up still engaged.

For all this discussion the RHs were a success particularly once some problems with radiators was overcome.

Regards
Ian

  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia







I was of the understanding they did have a toggle switch which could override the lockup. i.e. would hold it in the torque setting.

"Guard Class 2"


I cannot say that I remember such a switch in the circuitry. Was it on the control panel? Perhaps it was to be used on gradients if the speed got to lockup but I cannot imagine where it would be used short of express services through the hills? Having said that I last worked on a Red hen in 1974... time does dim the memory!

Just interested

Regards

Trevor

"xdford"


There was a toggle switch on the apron of the sloping control desk just to the right (I think) of the throttle lever. The head light rotary switch was nearby more to the right.
Whether that switch was a lock-up defeat I can't say but wonder why they would want it considering it didn't occur until well over 30mph.

The problem with the torque converter is that the torque falls away with speed, lots of torque low down and hence initial acceleration. For the 3000s the torque is constant due to the ac drive system.

On a BB with manual lock-up switching the motor/s could be stalled is the motor man braked to slow with the lock-up still engaged.

For all this discussion the RHs were a success particularly once some problems with radiators was overcome.

Regards
Ian

"steam4ian"


I will have a look in my tucker box and see if I can find the answer in a few days time, but I thought that on some short sections between stations we would over-ride the lock so it did not come in a as we were throttling off for the next station to over come the jolt that use to occur.

  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".

The switch being referred to had two settings Hydraulic or lock up. For low speed use like we do a the NRM hydraulic is selected, however if they ever get out on the mainline again it would be set to lock up so that it engages it. It is not really an overide as such it just enables a railcar to move at slow speed at depots etc without needing to use the lock up on the torque converter.



Hydraulic use's the Torque converter only, while lock up start's out using the torque converter till it reaches the speed that has been set for lock up it then drops into direct drive from the engines under the cars, till the driver lowers the speed again and it drops back out of lock up back into Hydraulic drive  All really the switch does is stop you going into lock up when you don't need it. For most railcar runs it was usually set to lock up.





  Guard Class 2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Elizabeth,South Australia

David has it exactly right.




LaughingLaughing
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner




David has it exactly right.




LaughingLaughing
"Guard Class 2"


This has become a great topic, a kind of pooling of information, impression and ignorance which if we persist politely eventualy comes to the truth.

Not the first time.

  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia

Checked the Tucker Box and found my 300/400 class exam papers from the old SARI.

Question 12"

When should "Lock Up" be suppressed?

Where any of the cars 300 - 341 in a consist lock up must be suppressed when operating on down grades with engines idling or running on short sections where closing of the throttle is likely to coincide with "Lock Up"

"Lock Up" occurring on these cars under the above circumstances cause damage to engine crankshafts and final drives.

60 km/h was usually the engaging speed it was set to come in on GM cars and 56 km/h RR cars.

  Guard Class 2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Elizabeth,South Australia

Excellent comprehensive reply explaining the salient points and answering the original question, Rex.

Very HappyVery Happy
  xdford Chief Train Controller




Excellent comprehensive reply explaining the salient points and answering the original question, Rex.


Very HappyVery Happy
"Guard Class 2"


So to the next question??? Surely there is something that has not bee covered???

Cheers

Trevor

  xdford Chief Train Controller




So to the next question??? Surely there is something that has not been covered???

...

"xdford"


Oh well try again - When was the SAR All lines ticket introduced, how much did it initially cost and how long did it "last", both in the currency of the ticket and the numbers issued...

Regards

Trevor

  xdford Chief Train Controller


Seems like no one wants a go at this one.

The SAR all lines ticket was introduced in mid 1973 and cost $14 for a weeks travel. One of the most prolific users would have been Roger Billett (I think he got Number 2) who did many trips after work riding Bluebirds to Bowmans for example and the Up Pirie back after getting his weekend quota of mileage.

I do not know exactly how many were sold but I believe well over 500 which for something not terribly well publicised was not bad. The ultimate price was about $20. I must admit, I did have a vested interested in this one as it was my suggestion that prompted the ticket... I even got a commendation for it in a Weekly notice which went to show that in the old SAR and most railway systems, even apprentices got listened to! I miss those days!

Regards

Trevor

  xdford Chief Train Controller

Seeing there is no entry,

How many stations/yards etc were allocated 500 class diesel locos as shunters on a rostered basis and which were the stations?  

Regards

Trevor
  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia
Seeing there is no entry,

How many stations/yards etc were allocated 500 class diesel locos as shunters on a rostered basis and which were the stations?  

Regards

Trevor
xdford
Trevor, I will have a guess and say 11

Tailem Bend
Murray Bridge
Mile End
Adelaide Yard
Port Adelaide
Dry Creek South BG
Dry Creek North SG
Islington intermodal
Islington workshops
Peterborough
Wallaroo

12 if you include ICI Soda at Osborne rented loco from AN
13 if include the Pooraka shunter

Regards

Rex
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I would add Gladstone. I photographed 503 there in 1970, and two there in 1978 (BG and SG), and then single units through to Feb 96, which was most likely the last time I bothered to check it out.
  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
Port Pirie & Port Augusta as well?
  xdford Chief Train Controller

Port Pirie & Port Augusta as well?
greasyrhys,
When I thought of this question, I must admit that I was thinking of purely back in the SAR days (I left the SAR in Feb 76 and Adelaide in Jan 79) but I appreciate that there were a few changes that widened the field.

AFAIK Pooraka was never a depot as such where crews changed over except for relief, but rather the stock cars were transferred to there from Dry Creek. In fact I am  not sure there was an allocation in the SAR days as most units worked trains to Dry Creek then back to Mile End. I would have thought too that Gillman was purely 800 class territory but I presume that there were transfer runs. THe only time I think I actually saw a 500 there was 526 on the 1970 Mystery trip.
My list as such would read in SAR days...

Pt Pirie, Gladstone, Peterborough, Terowie (before Peterborough), Wallaroo (500's were towed there for about 4 weeks as I recall) Dry Creek, Adelaide (which was a transfer run from Mile End), Mile End and Tailem Bend (Murray Bridge was also a transfer run based on the school mixed train). therefore 8-10 depending on how you count the transfer runs etc. During 1974 when 350 was being E serviced, a 500 was also allocated to the Works for the duration.

ANR days would have added Dry Creek North and South, Islington, Pt Augusta/Stirling North, Whyalla (for Morrison Knudsen) and I believe for a short while anyway ... Parkeston !

Rex you would come closest I would think... I only thought of it to get the ball rolling again!

Cheers

Trevor
  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia
When I thought of this question, I must admit that I was thinking of purely back in the SAR days (I left the SAR in Feb 76 and Adelaide in Jan 79) but I appreciate that there were a few changes that widened the field.

AFAIK Pooraka was never a depot as such where crews changed over except for relief, but rather the stock cars were transferred to there from Dry Creek. In fact I am  not sure there was an allocation in the SAR days as most units worked trains to Dry Creek then back to Mile End. I would have thought too that Gillman was purely 800 class territory but I presume that there were transfer runs. THe only time I think I actually saw a 500 there was 526 on the 1970 Mystery trip.
My list as such would read in SAR days...

Pt Pirie, Gladstone, Peterborough, Terowie (before Peterborough), Wallaroo (500's were towed there for about 4 weeks as I recall) Dry Creek, Adelaide (which was a transfer run from Mile End), Mile End and Tailem Bend (Murray Bridge was also a transfer run based on the school mixed train). therefore 8-10 depending on how you count the transfer runs etc. During 1974 when 350 was being E serviced, a 500 was also allocated to the Works for the duration.

ANR days would have added Dry Creek North and South, Islington, Pt Augusta/Stirling North, Whyalla (for Morrison Knudsen) and I believe for a short while anyway ... Parkeston !

Rex you would come closest I would think... I only thought of it to get the ball rolling again!

Cheers

Trevor

Thanks Trevor, lets try this one.


What was the name of the station located between Salisbury and Penfield 1
xdford
  xdford Chief Train Controller

AFULE
Hilra?
  xdford Chief Train Controller

Just harking back to the 500 question AFULE, how many 500's were stationed at Tailem Bend say in the mid 70's?  1 would have been used to do the Murray Bridge Run. It is a question out of interest,
Cheers
Trevor
  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia
Just harking back to the 500 question AFULE, how many 500's were stationed at Tailem Bend say in the mid 70's?  1 would have been used to do the Murray Bridge Run. It is a question out of interest,
Cheers
Trevor
xdford
Trevor, not sure on this but I think I recall there were two 500's, one for each end of the yard and I think one did the the school train run, there was also one stabled at Murray Bridge which did the local and wharf shunt as well.

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