Advanced Train Management System (ATMS)

 
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

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  In_Cab Beginner

How is the ARTC ATMS any different to the currently implemented ITCS running revenue/production trains in the US and China?

Both systems are based on communication authorities. Both systems have electronic/virtual blocks. Speed and limit of authorities will be enforced similar to existing carborne equipped systems with ATP with a track map. All I can see is that ATMS will use a principle of moving block, whereas ITCS will use a similar principle to moving block in regards to using fixed virtual blocks at a suitable spacing. ITCS will still have a train footprint with location of the front and rear of the train (and safety margin) being communicated for positioning rather than using conventional track circuits. ATMS is still in development with no clear sign of full deployment albeit with stage 2 being trialled.

ATMS will be beneficial for networks with mixed traffic where braking curves differ for a passenger train versus a freighter. If you have a captive fleet (which might consist of different train configs) then you can only have your safety margin based on the worst case braking application.

With wayside locations at crossovers or turnouts you will still require interlockings if you want vital field locking and if you work on a railroad that has heavy axle loads you will still want to maintain some level of BRD even though a typical track circuit will not detect all forms of breaks.

ATMS appears to be great if you are currently running a safe working system using train orders and you want to increase efficiency and safety using a communication system already provided by Telstra. However what happens under the scenario if you already have a CTC based safe working system and want to increase capacity to the network. Why is ATMS any better to other existing communication based train control systems on the market?
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Projects like this typically aren't straightforward COTS solution - even if there was such a thing for ATMS (or ticketing systems Wink )

It's not so much is it better or how different but rather what are the 'unique' requirements for Australia (and don't we have plenty of those). Lockheed Martin and Ansaldo-STS bring with them experience with developing and implementing these systems.
  In_Cab Beginner

Well what are the unique requirements for Australia? In the Pilbara you have a combination of Microlok (ASTS) and IWP (GE) interlocking rolled out with mainly in cab coding and ATP. Companies like FMG are going from a train order based system to a communication based system supplied by GE which is the Incremental Train Control System.

The installation in China has virtually no wayside equipment due to the harsh environment and high altitudes for gangs and work crews to work on. QR pretty much installs every type of system, so is QR waiting eagerly to install ATMS as a below ground operator? ATRC does not even know if after the completion of proof of concept for both stages whether it will go ahead with a full roll out. And it comes back to my original question, regardless of the vendor, why is this system any different or better than ones currently available and actually operational more importantly?

Siemens, GE, Bombardier and other major railroad vendors all have experience in implementing these types of systems - I guess the right question to ask is who is easier to deal with commercially.

I still think ATMS is a great solution if it actually goes to a full rollout
Smile
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Well what are the unique requirements for Australia? In the Pilbara you have a combination of Microlok (ASTS) and IWP (GE) interlocking rolled out with mainly in cab coding and ATP. Companies like FMG are going from a train order based system to a communication based system supplied by GE which is the Incremental Train Control System. The installation in China has virtually no wayside equipment due to the harsh environment and high altitudes for gangs and work crews to work on. QR pretty much installs every type of system, so is QR waiting eagerly to install ATMS as a below ground operator? ATRC does not even know if after the completion of proof of concept for both stages whether it will go ahead with a full roll out. And it comes back to my original question, regardless of the vendor, why is this system any different or better than ones currently available and actually operational more importantly? Siemens, GE, Bombardier and other major railroad vendors all have experience in implementing these types of systems - I guess the right question to ask is who is easier to deal with commercially. I still think ATMS is a great solution if it actually goes to a full rollout Smile
"In_Cab"



These requirements include:

  • AS/NZ 4292 – Rail Safety Management (analogous to ISO 9001 for Rail Safety)

  • Code of Practice for the Defined Interstate Rail Network

  • NSW Signalling and Design Principles

  • Australia State(s) Rule Books



http://atms.artc.com.au/faqs/

Plenty of ITC projects that were meant to be straightforward implementations with 'some' customisation that went off the rails big time.

Regardless, the cost of deployment will be the killer. ARTC is investing a relatively small amount (as far as such project go) getting it to the stage where it can turn to its shareholder (or IA) and ask for the capital (the big money) to roll it out. 

The pollies want a plan for the future - then they decide they can't afford it.  Wink
  historian Deputy Commissioner

How is the ARTC ATMS any different to the currently implemented ITCS running revenue/production trains in the US and China? [...] ATMS appears to be great if you are currently running a safe working system using train orders and you want to increase efficiency and safety using a communication system already provided by Telstra.
"In_Cab"


You've just answered your own question. That is, of course, exactly the benefit of ATMS.

This is not to say that you couldn't have got the same benefit now using a customised ITCS. But the investment decision at ARTC was made several years ago, and the risk profile may have appeared different then.

However what happens under the scenario if you already have a CTC based safe working system and want to increase capacity to the network.
"In_Cab"


ATMS is designed to also sit above CTC (in fact also above double line block and electric staff). Presumably it will not add capacity, but will provide positive train control.

In my view the biggest risk for ARTC now in ATMS is that they will end  up with an orphan system - it will work, but no-one else will pick it up. So they will be responsible for all development...
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
...
ATMS is designed to also sit above CTC (in fact also above double line block and electric staff). Presumably it will not add capacity, but will provide positive train control.

In my view the biggest risk for ARTC now in ATMS is that they will end  up with an orphan system - it will work, but no-one else will pick it up. So they will be responsible for all development...
"historian"



1. Capacity - From the ATMS home page "ATMS is designed to support ARTC's objectives of improving rail network capacity, operational flexibility, train service availability, transit times, rail safety and system reliability.  "


2. Orphan system true but that assumes:

a. you would get any commonality between the various track custodians across Australia (just like ticketing systems)

b. that the 'competitors' are simply off the shelf systems where customisation isn't required. Anyone familiar with SAP or Peoplesoft implementations know how much you spend simply maintaining them.

c. ARTC is the closest thing we have to a national authority so that should give them some clout.

d. Unless they intended to 'commercialise it' why would they care

e. They could afford to buy a system that a state government could.     

Recommend a good read through the technical info at http://www.atms.artc.com.au/ - very edumacational        8)
  historian Deputy Commissioner

...
ATMS is designed to also sit above CTC (in fact also above double line block and electric staff). Presumably it will not add capacity, but will provide positive train control.

In my view the biggest risk for ARTC now in ATMS is that they will end  up with an orphan system - it will work, but no-one else will pick it up. So they will be responsible for all development...
"historian"



1. Capacity - From the ATMS home page "ATMS is designed to support ARTC's objectives of improving rail network capacity, operational flexibility, train service availability, transit times, rail safety and system reliability.  "
"cootanee"


I should have been slightly clearer. I meant, of course, "Presumably, when siting above CTC it will not add capacity, but it will provide positive train control."

In fact, like all ATP systems, there would probably be a slight loss of capacity under CTC due to the positive train control. This is because the train control portion has to assume a very conservative co-efficient of friction at tthe railhead and consequently enforces a slower approach to an end of block than would normally be driven by an experienced driver.


Recommend a good read through the technical info at http://www.atms.artc.com.au/ - very edumacational        8)
"cootanee"


Oh, I have :-)
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville


ARTC has decided to introduce Centralised Train Control (CTC) on the Coonamia to Tarcoola corridor because of increasing traffic levels.



 



CTC will be implemented by mid 2013. 

Lots of blah, blah, blah about still being committed to ,and continuing to work on, ATMS,  but if it's not already dead in the water it's about to endure a long, lingering and quiet death.


  duttonbay Minister for Railways



ARTC has decided to introduce Centralised Train Control (CTC) on the Coonamia to Tarcoola corridor because of increasing traffic levels.


 

CTC will be implemented by mid 2013.

Lots of blah, blah, blah about still being committed to ,and continuing to work on, ATMS, but if it's not already dead in the water it's about to endure a long, lingering and quiet death.


"bingley hall"

Is six months, give or take, enough time to realistically install CTC on that length of track? How many crossing loops are there?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Is six months, give or take, enough time to realistically install CTC on that length of track? How many crossing loops are there?
"duttonbay"

Only time will tell.

Think there are about 10 loops. 



  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!


...
Lots of blah, blah, blah about still being committed to ,and continuing to work on, ATMS, but if it's not already dead in the water it's about to endure a long, lingering and quiet death.


"bingley hall"


Talk of ATMS death seem premature... coma perhaps Wink

ARTC is looking for $500m from IA to implement ATMS. In the meantime life goes on...
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
Installing CTC from Coonamia to Tarcoola could easily be done in 6 months.
Much of the infrastructure already exists, and all thats needed, is the installation
of arrival and departure signals at each loop, and the installation of some kind of
rail vehicle detection for the single line, but axle counting would be simplest option.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Yes I was thinking axle counters as well . I also keep thinking that with all the Train Order gear and continuing speed improvements the Cootamundra West to Parkes line would be easier with axle counter CTC . Radio based TOW is a right royal PITA with the Comms cock ups and having to call so many people at varied locations .
It would be a big help if the Freight Miser system showed all trains in your locos local area and all signals , plus their indications , so there are no nasty surprises . Being GPS based it would be easy to incorporate some sort of ATP into this .
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney

Yes I was thinking axle counters as well . I also keep thinking that with all the Train Order gear and continuing speed improvements the Cootamundra West to Parkes line would be easier with axle counter CTC . Radio based TOW is a right royal PITA with the Comms cock ups and having to call so many people at varied locations . It would be a big help if the Freight Miser system showed all trains in your locos local area and all signals , plus their indications , so there are no nasty surprises . Being GPS based it would be easy to incorporate some sort of ATP into this .
"BDA"


It would be a big help if freightmiser was somewhat reliable in the first place. Last 4 trains I worked it was either- "no GPS" screen,  white screen of death or the data is screwed up (Full dyno working from Crystal Brook to Gladstone? I didn't know you used brakes to go uphill!)

ATP level 2 is supposedly meant to be in cab signalling, and if it could be incorporated into NR's that would be great. However, real life indications would be a moot point (at least for the Parkes- West perspective). Better off upgrading the data in freightmiser so that it is somewhat more reliable and user friendly, with approximate locations of signals. Isn't part of the reason we have a second person is to ensure we don't SPAD by calling the signals?

In terms of radio based TOW, who are the many people you are calling? Control for the order, control for confirmation and the train your passing/crossing is all I am aware of? 

For the Coonamia- Stirling North part at least, all you need is an outer like on ABS, and your set. 

  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville

The detail is in one small sentence toward the end of the release. Conveniently no mention of the future of ATMS.


Joint Media Statement



ADELAIDE-PERTH RAIL CORRIDOR UPGRADE

The rail corridor between Adelaide and Perth will be upgraded to improve the network’s reliability and capacity to ensure it better services new mining operations through a $95 million investment.

Minister for Infrastructure and Transport, Anthony Albanese, said the investment underpins a new 15 year agreement between Australian Rail Track Corporation Ltd (ARTC) and Brookfield Rail that will provide seamless access on the important east west corridor, along with improvements to the Adelaide to Tarcoola section.

“This investment has been made possible by the Federal Labor Government’s equity injection of $95 million into ARTC,” Mr Albanese said. 

“Our investment brings three key benefits – it will create additional capacity for interstate intermodal and express services, improve safety and support resources expansion.”

“This commitment to new infrastructure will ensure that interstate rail freight continues to grow and rail remains the logistics mode of choice between Adelaide and Perth.”

ARTC CEO John Fullerton said three new mining operations in South Australia are either underway or are soon to commence on the ARTC network between Tarcoola, Whyalla and Adelaide.

“Not only does the wholesale agreement between ARTC and Brookfield Rail deliver on enhanced standards for the rail network, it also provides the basis for the parties to work together to grow interstate freight volumes on the network,” Mr Fullerton said. 

ARTC is contributing toward Brookfield Rail’s re-railing program between Koolyanobbing and Kalgoorlie, which will support a more reliable and seamless connection on the east-west corridor.

$35 million will go towards a new train control system along the Adelaide to Tarcoola rail corridor and in building additional crossing infrastructure between Adelaide and Tarcoola.

“The new track and operational infrastructure reaffirms our commitment to investing in and growing a truly national network for rail, where our customers have a one-stop-shop for all their inter and intra-state freight needs,” Mr Fullerton said.

The Agreement will support the continued delivery of a common access framework and operating conditions for rail traffic on the east-west rail corridor between Adelaide and Perth.

Rail continues to dominate the land transport market on the east-west corridor, with 82 per cent of freight currently being transported by rail.

  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!

The detail is in one small sentence toward the end of the release. Conveniently no mention of the future of ATMS.

"bingley hall"


Not sure why "conveniently". Having ATMS 'one' day is irrelevant in the context of this announcement as the train control and crossing loops are about capacity issues now.    

What is noteworthy is the agreement between Australian Rail Track Corporation Ltd (ARTC) and Brookfield Rail - the missing link and something that WA should have sorted out before selling off Westrail Rolling Eyes   

As it is ATMS is still only in 'proof of concept'. Even if it gets the nod for rollout they still need the funding to do so (last was $500m).
In the meantime life goes on, therefore $35 million will go towards a new train control system along the Adelaide to Tarcoola rail corridor and in building additional crossing infrastructure between Adelaide and Tarcoola.


  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville

The detail is in one small sentence toward the end of the release. Conveniently no mention of the future of ATMS.

"bingley hall"


Not sure why "conveniently". Having ATMS 'one' day is irrelevant in the context of this announcement as the train control and crossing loops are about capacity issues now.

What is noteworthy is the agreement between Australian Rail Track Corporation Ltd (ARTC) and Brookfield Rail - the missing link and something that WA should have sorted out before selling off Westrail Rolling Eyes

As it is ATMS is still only in 'proof of concept'. Even if it gets the nod for rollout they still need the funding to do so (last was $500m).
In the meantime life goes on, therefore $35 million will go towards a new train control system along the Adelaide to Tarcoola rail corridor and in building additional crossing infrastructure between Adelaide and Tarcoola.

"cootanee"

How long has ATMS been in development?

How much has been spent on it to date by ARTC and the Federal Government?

If you are going to spend $35m today then over what period is that investment being recouped. You would think at least 10 years, putting a roll out of ATMS a decade away. 

From discussions with people in the industry I get the feeling that if ARTC could can the contract with Lockheed they would.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia


ARTC has decided to introduce Centralised Train Control (CTC) on the Coonamia to Tarcoola corridor because of increasing traffic levels.


 

CTC will be implemented by mid 2013.

Lots of blah, blah, blah about still being committed to ,and continuing to work on, ATMS, but if it's not already dead in the water it's about to endure a long, lingering and quiet death.


"bingley hall"


Bingley, I wondered about the status of CTC on this route.  When last in in Port Augusta I noticed the signals between Port Augusta and Coomamia (or most of them) were turned off.  Was this for maintenance that weekend or was this standard operating procedure?  Even snowtown had non-lit signals.

Comment?

Regards
Brian
  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia

The detail is in one small sentence toward the end of the release. Conveniently no mention of the future of ATMS.

"bingley hall"


Not sure why "conveniently". Having ATMS 'one' day is irrelevant in the context of this announcement as the train control and crossing loops are about capacity issues now.

What is noteworthy is the agreement between Australian Rail Track Corporation Ltd (ARTC) and Brookfield Rail - the missing link and something that WA should have sorted out before selling off Westrail Rolling Eyes

As it is ATMS is still only in 'proof of concept'. Even if it gets the nod for rollout they still need the funding to do so (last was $500m).
In the meantime life goes on, therefore $35 million will go towards a new train control system along the Adelaide to Tarcoola rail corridor and in building additional crossing infrastructure between Adelaide and Tarcoola.

"cootanee"

How long has ATMS been in development?

How much has been spent on it to date by ARTC and the Federal Government?

If you are going to spend $35m today then over what period is that investment being recouped. You would think at least 10 years, putting a roll out of ATMS a decade away.

From discussions with people in the industry I get the feeling that if ARTC could can the contract with Lockheed they would.
"bingley hall"


I agree with you Bingley Hall, We can't wait any longer for ATMS.

The quick fix is CTC and some crossing loop work  between Coonamia and Tarcoola that should assist in over coming the conjestion mess that occurs in this area.

ATMS may have application on the long sections from Tarcoola to Kalgoorlie some time in the future to improve things, but as I said we CAN"T WAIT.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Bingley, I wondered about the status of CTC on this route. When last in in Port Augusta I noticed the signals between Port Augusta and Coomamia (or most of them) were turned off. Was this for maintenance that weekend or was this standard operating procedure? Even snowtown had non-lit signals.

Comment?

Regards
Brian
"bevans"

You need a signalling expert for that one, but my understanding was they only light up when there is a train in the section.
  AFULE Chief Train Controller

Location: South Australia


ARTC has decided to introduce Centralised Train Control (CTC) on the Coonamia to Tarcoola corridor because of increasing traffic levels.


 

CTC will be implemented by mid 2013.

Lots of blah, blah, blah about still being committed to ,and continuing to work on, ATMS, but if it's not already dead in the water it's about to endure a long, lingering and quiet death.


"bingley hall"


Bingley, I wondered about the status of CTC on this route. When last in in Port Augusta I noticed the signals between Port Augusta and Coomamia (or most of them) were turned off. Was this for maintenance that weekend or was this standard operating procedure? Even snowtown had non-lit signals.

Comment?

Regards
Brian
"bevans"


They light up on the approach of the train about 4k's out approx, except Winninowie which has a shorter approach circuit.
  shoofly Locomotive Driver

I know this is slightly off topic, but is CTC also being planned for the Western Line in Victoria ad replacing the old system?
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I know this is slightly off topic, but is CTC also being planned for the Western Line in Victoria ad replacing the old system?
"shoofly"

I believe CTC is currently being implemented on the Gheringhap-Maroona line.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Hardly unusual for a significant ITC program to take a while especially if the budget/resources aren't overly generous (which appears so here). After all not like it's a ticketing system Laughing
ATMS wouldn't happen for a few years at best even if the required $500m (2008) was provided for deployment. After all ICE is only being rolled out now. In the meantime life goes on.

Heck it could be worst... look how long NSW took to bring in CTC north of Casino Shocked

Oh that's right... they didn't  Wink

 

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