Where is it ~ Melbourne Suburban (Photo) #3

 
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Previous Where izz it thread, #2, found here


Starting a new Where is it thread for Melbourne Suburban as the other one is a bit long in the tooth, being 617 pages long. Have a feeling long threads are about to be trimmed so may as well get in first and set up the thread.

Where is it rules: (there's a few)

Basic rules here, http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p235803.htm#235803 and since that is nearly three years old, I'll update it appropriately in italics

- Pictures can be anywhere on the Melbourne metropolitan Metlink system that uses Metcard tix (this means Train, Tram or even bus). This includes Craigieburn, Melton, Sunbury/Diggers Rest and Stony Point.

So this includes all areas in our current two-zone ticketing area, and the former three-zone ticketing area, but not beyond Sunbury, Pakenham,  Melton, Donnybrook,(the PTC owns the tracks as far as Donnybrook) and may include historical photographs of the closed lines, e.g. Whittlesea, Healesville, Red Hill, Mornington, Upfield-Somerton, Outer Circle, etc.

- First with the correct answer gets it.

- If you don't have a picture 24hrs after you get it, first in best dressed gets it.

This means the floor is open after 24 hours, if the current winner has not posted a pic; however, if the winner posts "Picture Up Soon", then we wait, patiently

- If Fang or NovoFang (Railpage) goes down, then the time for posting a pic is 24 hours after Railpage is up again

- Hints can be given to a maximum of three. Enlarging crops constitute a hint.

- If the picture is not guessed after three days of the last guess, then the winner is the one who has guessed closest.

- If the person posting a picture takes more than two days to reply to guesses, the floor is thrown open

- If you have seen a photo that is on public record, and know the location, you should thereby stand out of the quiz, at least for that specific photo.

I think we have all had a gut-full of people taking up to a week to reply to guesses.

- In the case of Historical pics, during 2006-7 it was agreed that the sequence was to be Recent Pic/Historical pic/Recent pic/Historical pic/ and so forth. Some lattitude is given to those who do not have recent pics to post historical pics.  If participants win and cannot post a pic in sequence they may post out of sequence provided they post an explanation before-hand.  For example, they might post,

"I don't have any recent pics. Historical pic up soon" and that is an acceptable way of doing things out of sequence.

- For historical pics, up to 5 hints may be given.  "Nobody close" is not a sustainable hint.

I'll edit this when I find a few more of our recent guidelines for this thread.

If anyone wants to discuss the guidelines, that is good and welcome, and we can edit this first post as we go along.

There has been considerable discussion about what is an appropriate photograph. The following was subject to much debate, and deemed inappropriate, and was the prima causa for the guidelines below:





Thanks in advance.

574M

Guidelines Edits:

Suggestion found here:


Not mentioned then, but emerging through common consent: also included are Whittlesea, Healesville (not just Yarra Glen), Warburton (not just Launching Place), Gembrook and Red Hill. IIRC Clyde, Tooradin and Mornington are zone 2.

Question raised by [b]Hitachi_Man[/b]

Is it acceptable to post goods only lines that fall within the Metcard area?


The answer is YES.



Guidelines Edits:

Being Helpful:


What was, and is not, now (the price of progress)

Where sidings, signals, and lines have been removed, and a picture is posted of something that no longer exists, then it is helpful for the younger members to be brought into the loop. Witness this guess, and reply:

RBS, here:

The now-removed Newport Yard, which ran between Newport and North Williamstown on the north side of the tracks.
""



574M replies, and includes a link to a signal diagram illustrating the "now removed sidings", to aid understanding why this guess was correct. here:


The now-removed Newport Yard, which ran between Newport and North Williamstown on the north side of the tracks.

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
"RoderickSmith"





Correct



Being Helpful:
If an historical photo is used, and someone wins, it, announce the winner and provide the original link to PROV or where-ever.

You will see that Comengs has done just this, here:





Breaking the Rules

Pictures that are taken and obviously trespassing should not be accepted for the purposes of competition. We should not encourage nor support illegal behaviour among our participants, particularly in these the twilight days of security legistation and guidelines about restricted photography.


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  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
The First Guide to posting Where is it photos was posted here: http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p759115.htm#759115

extracted from that, for your assistance:




There's things that people miss out when looking at a picture, and seeing as it's really a learning experience, here's some tips:

  • Make sure that you can see the forest for the trees.
The photos that people place up always have more than one clue.  There's always at least four or five as a minimum. What I'm seeing is that people are looking at one feature in a photo and ignoring all the clues and bits and pieces as a whole.  
  • Don't just think of all locations that have a certain feature and go through a mental list.
Every location is unique in its own way, and coming back to the first dot point, just going "X has a Y at it, therefore it is X" doesn't work and will not work.
  • Locations do not change much geographically.
Hills have been where hills have been in pretty much all places, even grade-separated ones.
  • Places change in regards to housing.
A photo even a few years ago may not have the right housing near it.  Don't always suspect that somewhere that's paddocks is in the edges of modern suburbia.
  • Cars tell a big story
The age of the cars (if any) can often unlock other clues as to where and what it is.
  • Stanchions. Look at the stanchions.
This always surprises me.  In no way am I a lineside structure gunzel, but if you're trying to say identify some picture of a train in 1958, knowing what colour and the construction of stanchions on each line are help a lot.  You can use it as part of the forest.
  • Try and picture the picture in it's current location.
Would the whole landscape and structures fit what's there now, even if certain aspects introduced recently (houses, catenary, bridges, holes in the ground etc) weren't there?
  • Never discount what your subconscious says.
If your gut feeling instantly says "It's X", listen to it.  Check to see if it fits - your subconscious has probably done all the processing mentioned above.
  • Do some research if you're stumped.
Look at some websites such as Mark Bau, Rob O'Regan and Peter Vincent's sites for clues.  
  • If you're seen the photo before, don't spoil it for others.
The departed but not missed Murat did that once.  Don't be like Emo Postwhore.  
  • However, that having been said, nothing stopping you giving a helper guess.
As it says, if people are struggling, post a helper guess if you like.



SUPPLEMENTARY ISSUES

The following was posted:




Which is somewhat open to wild guesses.
This picture was expanded, about one page later to




Which is probably a more helpful picture for a whereizzit quiz.

Different Locations
Picture of a train on a specific location and asking for that location is acceptable, provided there are sufficent clues. wongm posted an excellent example of this here which is reproduced below:

image posted by wongm

What bridge is the Comeng on?




  Henry Herby

Location: Victoria
Can I start the picture

"Yes" Here it is: http://www.srhc.org.au/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=715
"No" Don't worry about it.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
The Second Guide to Posting in Whereizzit was posted here:



Here is an extract for your assistance and help:

  • Include some detail


Why Metlink's photo was inferior was that it was just a pole, bushes and no name.  Nothing else.  No stanchions, not platform facing, no signalling, no station type, no nothing.  Just a pole and some bushes.  Nothing there to identify.

  • Try not to include anything too obvious.


Before submitting to RP, have a look at the picture in Paint or Photoshop and remove things like:
  • Station sign names
  • Signal numbers
  • Roadsigns
  • Advertising with the location in it
  • Spark destination boards


Make sure it isn't something that people will know straight away by cropping a bit if necessary. If it is a unique station building, crop it.

  • Explain your reasoning.


Do what some of our regular posters here do. Explain why you think x photo was taken at y.  It helps other people understand why they thought what they thought.  It also helps explain what you know to others who don't (Never presume you don't know anything). If you don't know why you think it's at y station, say so.  

  • There's no excuse for not having a picture.


Two websites - State Library of Victoria and PROV have tons and tons of photographs.  I've gotta borrow a digital camera for a day and take a whole buncha photos for whereizzits, but in the meantime I will use the two sites I linked to.  Saying "I've only got this piddling photo" or "the floor is open" is a weak excuse.


Most importantly:

  • Do some research!


There's a-plenty of sites that have details on the Melbourne network; for example, Ray Gomerski's Signal Diagrams site,, Andrew Waugh and Mark Bau have most if not all of the information needed.  Jason R has posted gradient diagrams.  Even Chris Gordon has some vaguely useful info on Vicsig.  Use a 1966 Melways  Even a current Melways helps out. As does a Metlink map.

Back your hunches, and do the research.

[edited, with apologies to the erstwhile Ninthnotch ]

Here is an excellent example posted in the last thread, from Jason R which is both totally different and yet has lots of clues:





Here is another excellent example, this time from Roderick Smith

- the station has been mocked up for a promotion for a wool product, yet, sufficient clues were left in for members to make reasonable guesses:




Useful and not so useful.

Useful

The following is a good and fair picture for a Where is it:




It has ample clues (probably too many), and an excellent scope of subject for a railway picture.

Historical

This is actually an historical photo:



As such, it is acceptable for this quiz (everyone saw the bridge pile stumps); thankfully, clues were given, and that quickly Very Happy





Not so useful




Those who travel on this line will know this and probably, instantly.

However, it is not really an appropriate picture for this thread. Note, that I am being objective here and assessing the picture, not the poster.


The location for this pic was suggested as 'a gum tree'


This is probably not a good picture due lack of railway clues. Kindly remember, that I am being objective here and assessing the picture, not the poster.

The following picture attracted some attention:




These comments were offered in response to that picture.


hopefully, whereizzits should not be the kind of 'Metlink station sign' photo that we have seen.

The photo should at least encourage people to think about their surroundings and allow people who do know to impart their knowledge.

After the photo is guessed, people should then walk away from it hopefully having learnt something about the railways of Melbourne. Or at the least, they have confirmed something they knew, or remembered something that they have forgotten.

This photo does nothing of the sort. All it is imparting to the viewer is that there is a conifer somwhere next to a track in on the former Hillside network. ................ At the least the photo of stanchions showed: an air gap, a crossover, the style of support, and that there was some stanchion cut off in the past. Lots of information.


Please note, that is is offered in response to the picture and the thread; no criticism is intended towards anyone who has posted pictures. Most of the comments come from other quiz participants...


Guidelines Edit:


There was quite a kerfuffle about this photo, and the location. Kindly note, that I am directing attention to an issue here, and not to what happened, nor to the people involved. Here is the pic:




The location was challenged. The guess had been awarded as correct, and someone else took their turn.

Guideline:
If two or more persons challenge the location, and the challenge is agreed to have some substance;  and the opportunity to post a picture has not been taken up, then a reply to the effect from the poster of the picture should say, the floor be thrown open. (We are here for a quiz, to extend our knowledge, and not for argument.)

Guideline:

If you have permission to use a picture from someone else, or from another website, then when the picture is guessed correctly, acknowledge that permission is given. If copyright exists on a picture and permission is given, then acknowledge copyright, and post the full pic with the copyright legend. This will encourage appropriate behaviour and respect of copyright.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Can we have a quick discussion about WSTID  

(WILD STAB IN THE DARK)

Do we want to use this acronym here in Melbourne Suburban, and if so, how do we use it?


Thanks in Advance,

574M
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Good Thread Etiquette, as shown by Flagstaff:

Assuming Fairfield Park is a guess of the now station Fairfield, I might try for a guess at Burnley.

EDIT: who knew I'd bump onto a new page.


Guesses so far:
Alphington
Auburn
Box Hill
Braybrook Junction - Sunshine
Brunswick
Burnley
Cheltenham
Coburg
Cragieburn
Croydon
Fairfield Park
Glenroy
Ivanhoe
Lilydale
Lilydale
Macleod
Malvern
Mentone
Mordialloc
Mordialloc
Murrumbeena
Oakleigh
Rosanna
Somerton
Springvale
St Albans
Sydenham
Toorak
"Flagstaff"


If the thread bumps to a new page, then it is helpful to post the picture if it has not been posted for a page or so, and list the incorrect guesses.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I generally am not a fan of WSITD guesses as generally, the answer given ends up being a guess that shows some ignorance of prior clues, and / or clues in the photo itself.

Could the photo possibly be:
Yarraville - pre Anderson Street x-ing days?
Yarraville had a line [and goods yard] behind the down platform such as in the photo above.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Suggestions:

Hosting of Pictures:

Normally, hosting of pictures is available in the Railpage Gallery. This is down at the moment, so some options are offered below. So if you want to post a picture and do not have your own hosting, then there are several avenues you may explore:

Free Hosting:

Imageshack is used by a number of our members here.
Imageshack

Fotopic
Fotopic is a place where you can have online albums:Free. Has been around for a long time, and many long-time railfans here in Australia seem to have lots of albums. Was one of the earliest free hosting sites.

Picasa

Google have a product called Picasa, a picture editing software. It also has free online albums. To learn more about Google Picasa, read Wikipedia. Apparently, according to Wikipedia, up to 1GB is available free using Picasaweb.


Railpictures.Net

Railpictures is a professional Railfan Picture repository with a strong US and North focus, although many Australian photographers have pictures there. You can send pictures as postcards, a neat feature.  Some of our members here host their photographs there. Join here.


Flickr

Quite a few of our members use Flickr. A Canadian startup, Flickr was acquired by Yahoo in 2005.  It's free, you can link, and you can have both the automatic resized picture on display, with the option to display larger sizes. You join Flickr by creating a Yahoo account.


Other possible hosting options:

Create a blog.  Blogs can host pictures. Blogspot is one such choice.

Your Internet Account:

Most ISP's give free hosting, some 10 MB, some 50MB, and some give hosting for pics. Telstra seems to have something funny there where you have to pay for a website but can host pics free. Odd. Anyway, if you have an internet connection, then more than likely, you have free hosting available.







Editing Pictures:

If you only have MS PAINT on your computer, then there are some useful, and free picture editing softwares available.

wongm has provided a list of free photo editing and touch up softwares, here.

In that post, he refers to Neat Image, Exifer, Photomatix, and AutoStitch.

Links to the software are given.

Irfanview is free and has many plugins; If you got all the plugins and installed them, then you could clean up the pictures, use gamma, and resize:

http://www.irfanview.com with links to many download locations.


Do you use Windows Picture and Fax Viewer?

I wonder if we can help you do the job a bit better than Windows Picture and Fax Viewer ... Pixia looks nice and looks like it might do a good job. Free and it seems to have just as many functions as Paint.net and The Gimp and maybe even Photoshop.

Take a look here:

http://park18.wakwak.com/~pixia/aboutpixia.htm

RESOLUTION
There were some comments about a sideways scrollbar appearing on screen. In the discussion that followed, I posted this:



This is basically a discussion. There are always many valid points of view, as Roderick Smith illustrates below.  ...the following useful reflections were given by Roderick Smith:

Everyone's computers will be set to different resolutions!! This means what fits *my* screen may not fit yours.

If anything, 1280x1024 is now the standard resolution, since that's what the majority of LCD's sold for the past couple of years, use. My 21" screen is 1920 pixels wide by 1024 high, for example, being a 16:10 widescreen - and fits the previously posted picture with ample room to spare.

If you want to guarantee to fit a picture on *all* screens, then you have to assume the lowest common denominator - a visually impaired person on 640x480 with large fonts and the magnifier - making the biggest permissible photo about the size of your avitar, or smaller...

Where you draw the line, is arbitrary and no matter what size someone will always cry that it's too big, or too small.



Conclusion: where possible, think of others, and how wide your picture might reasonably be.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Enough of Guidelines!

According to this post, here, http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p974585.htm#974585, Flagstaff has thrown it open.

Floor's open folks!

Happy Hunting.


Thanks to the Moderators for making this sticky.
  trolleybusracer Deputy Commissioner

Location: St Albans Sydenham Watergardens Line
  Metro Transit Minister for Railways

Location: Error.
St Albans?


Metro II.
  trolleybusracer Deputy Commissioner

Location: St Albans Sydenham Watergardens Line
Cheeky Little smeg

over to you
  Metro Transit Minister for Railways

Location: Error.
Thanks TBR!  Very Happy

Ok, peoples, this is probably a lame find, but better pics will be avaliable next time, so where is it?




Metro II.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
I thought you were going to get out and about and use your new digital camera?
  Metro Transit Minister for Railways

Location: Error.
I thought you were going to get out and about and use your new digital camera?
"574M"

Well i would, but i'm at work, so this will have to do till i can get out and about.  Very Happy


Metro II.
  NR77 Chief Commissioner

It looks a bit like the building at Sydneham
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
Ringwood.
  Metro Transit Minister for Railways

Location: Error.
Ringwood.
"Deep Throat"

Correct, Ringwood it is, over to you Deep Throat.


Metro II.
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
OK, I have had a couple of PM's which suggest that we need to set a new, clear starting point without all this dragging on and uncertainty.




Where is 12CM?



Question
  RoderickSmith Banned

Location: Banned
In a section.
My entry: nearest station Hawksburn.

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Not Hawksburn
  ian cook Some railfan on the Pakky Line

Malvern?
  RoderickSmith Banned

Location: Banned
South Yarra: there is a tennis court on the spit between the Caulfield lines and the Sandringham lines.

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Malvern?
"ian cook"


Malvern it is.

Original pic is copyright Peter J Vincent.

See original pic here:

http://pjv101.net/film_bw/05/0701_02.jpg


Staff to ian cook.
  ian cook Some railfan on the Pakky Line

Thanks 574M.

Most Likely an easy one.

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