RRL Project - West Werribee / Southern Cross

 
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

3. Dual gauge unlikely in from Sunshine for two reasons the available capacity of say 22 trains per hour will be taken up completely by VLP broad gauge services to South West, West and North in peak hours; and secondly dual gauge restricts broad gauge operation to 80 kmh for safety reasons . VLP sg trains from the Nth East will already have separate sg access into Sxs via Jacana, Albion and Dynon so one does not need to introduce additional dg complexity and signalling onto RRL between Sunshine and Franklin St .

"kuldalai"


I think you will find that 80 km/h running would be good enough, as trains would hardly get the chance to go any faster between Southern Cross and Sunshine. as It Is only 12.3 km's

The 5.1 km section between West Footscray and Sunshine would likely be the only part (between SCS and Sunshine) where V/locity trains would be able to starch their legs.

The remaining 7.2 km's would likely have space limitation, there for not allowing It to have a premium alinement

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  fast01 BUTTSCRATCHER!

Location: Somewhere your not.
3. Dual gauge unlikely in from Sunshine for two reasons the available capacity of say 22 trains per hour will be taken up completely by VLP broad gauge services to South West, West and North in peak hours; and secondly dual gauge restricts broad gauge operation to 80 kmh for safety reasons . VLP sg trains from the Nth East will already have separate sg access into Sxs via Jacana, Albion and Dynon so one does not need to introduce additional dg complexity and signalling onto RRL between Sunshine and Franklin St .
"kuldalai"
What about sending NE Broad Gauge V/Line services via Albion and onto the RRL? ARTC is in the progress of upgrading that section so would it be viable?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Id say the whole railyards area around North Melbourne will change with redundant little used parts of track that were once part of the Melbourne Yard Hump / Spencer Street Yard (West Tower) removed to make way for this new track and the proposed "E Gate" development.
"Nightfire"


Could this be a undertone plan to move the rest of the freight network out of the West Tower area having the Feds pay for it?

Also, what of the North Melbourne area? I cannot fathom the changes required around the approaches to the current stabling in the old Mlebourne yard arrivals?  This is a huge job and may have a major affect on current services.  

What are your thoughts in the metro services via the new lines?  If Tarneit is going to be a metro/Connext service then has thought been given to running Tarneit, Werribee West, Werribee and then to the city services in affect, a triangle at the West Werribee location?

Is the line from Deer Park to have electrification from Sunshine through to Tarneit or also onto West Werribee?

Is a station planned for West Werribee?

How will the junction at West Werribee be designed? An At grade crossing?

Regards
Brian
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

2. RRL is extra two tracks West Werribee through to Southern Cross non electrified throughout for exclusive use by VLP trains. Ballarat trains join in at Deer park area, and Bendigo trains at Sunshine .  Completely separates sparks and VLP . High speed operation should be possible right into Sth ken area, like previous proposals at 115kmh !!!
"kuldalai"

So you're saying Tarneit will be served exclusively by V/Line trains?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
2. RRL is extra two tracks West Werribee through to Southern Cross non electrified throughout for exclusive use by VLP trains. Ballarat trains join in at Deer park area, and Bendigo trains at Sunshine .  Completely separates sparks and VLP . High speed operation should be possible right into Sth ken area, like previous proposals at 115kmh !!!
"kuldalai"

So you're saying Tarneit will be served exclusively by V/Line trains?
"duttonbay"


Yes

No Connex

No overhead
(unless Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo were to be electrified 25 KV AC)
  SN7 Chief Commissioner

Whilst not directly related, I pose a question , in relation to the proposed Sunbury Electrification, with regards to Signalling, the RFR corridor commences at Sydenham at the moment, will this be relinquished and a different signalling system deployed to Sunbury, as at the moment the communication between all trains is via radio from Bendigo Control panel , and "Sparks" do not have compatible radios.

Also in regard to redevelopment at North Melbourne, some areas have been flagged for High density housing and another sports ground, as well as retail areas , there was a proposal for the present Ice Roads located inside the reversing loop being utilised for stabling of V/Line trains.
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
One of the massive advantages of this project will be the greater flexibility given to V/Line , the new platform 15 & 16 at Southern Cross will be signalled to allow turnback working.
"SN7"

You won't be able to fit a run around on platform 15, even if you pulled up the platform face they have already installed and narrow the platform, the pillars would be in the way. Platform 16 could steal one of the goods lines.

[img]http://www.railgeelong.com/gallery/geelong-line/southern-cross/image/500/D620_2094.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.railgeelong.com/gallery/geelong-line/southern-cross/image/500/D620_2095.jpg[/img]

I would also imagine that Melton- Bacchus Marsh services will gain a 20-30 Minute off peak service once its all said & done.
"SN7"

Do Melton and Bacchus Marsh have the revenue traffic to warrant 20-30 minute off peak service? Does anyone know the daily traffic figures for these stops?
"574M"

They don't but Ardeer / Deer Park / Caroline Springs would, all being located in suburbia. Development at Rockbank won't be far off.

High speed operation should be possible right into Sth ken area, like previous proposals at 115kmh !!!
"kuldalai"

I wonder if the tracks will be bidirectional. It would drive up the cost, but you could do two parallel arrivals or departures into / from town - there would be roughly about 12 trains an hour coming in but only 3 headed the other way (assuming 1 hour off peak / 15 minute peak frequencies). Another option could be to follow ARTC on the north-east and have wrong line running for emergencies only.
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
as at the moment the communication between all trains is via radio from Bendigo Control panel , and "Sparks" do not have compatible radios.
"SN7"

Hasn't "One Radio System To Rule Them All" been on the railway to-do list for a decade?
  Deanodriver Chief Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
The Sunbury electrification and additional DMUs on order will release all H sets, to run dedicated Bacchus Marsh services, more than likely involving the entire H set fleet configured into 7 car Push Pull mode.
I would imagine looking at the layout the platform at Bacchus Marsh could be modified to incorporate a dock similar to places such as Nambour, where local trains use the dock & through use the main platform.
I would also imagine that Melton- Bacchus Marsh services will gain a 20-30 Minute off peak service once its all said & done.
"SN7"


I would imagine that some of the H sets would also find use on the Geelong line.

The question is, does this take into account the eventual electrification of Melton? I must admit I'd be in favour of having Connex run the Melton services with VLP rollingstock ala Stony Point. Would it be worth running Melton-Sunshine shuttle services even?

Would there be a way for the RRE line to connect to the existing Geelong line, so services could follow the new line to Footscray and the old line thereafter?
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

Sorry to side track just a little: what are the 2 electrified tracks to the west of platform 16 used for? I don't understand why a spark would bypass a platform face at Southern Cross? Is it used for trains running from Richmond to eq Newport for servicing/other stabling?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The two tracks on the western side of platform 16 are through tracks used for freight and sparks.  Trains often use these tracks.

Perhaps the run around will involve interlocking with tracks in platform 15+16 and these through tracks at both ends of the platform?

Perhaps they will skew the independent lines further to the west back into the old Melbourne Yard east?

There are still aspects to this entire project that baffle me.  I have some questions above, but in addition, why would only v/line trains service Tarneit?  This would make the journey to/from geelong in the peaks anyhoe even longer than it is now.

There must be plans to electrify the new lines?

Why was this planning not incorporated with the Geelong RFR planning?

Regards
Brian
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Perhaps they will skew the independent lines further to the west back into the old Melbourne Yard east?
"bevans"


Maybe just by one track


There are still aspects to this entire project that baffle me.
"bevans"

Me too the whole section from SXS to West Footscray and Sunshine Station.  


I have some questions above, but in addition, why would only v/line trains service Tarneit?
"bevans"


Tarneit would be a country station not a suburban station I guess a station will be constructed at Manor (West Werribee)

I doubt a station at Tarneit will get constructed any time soon, It will always be on the to do/premiss list.  


This would make the journey to/from Geelong in the peaks anyhoe even longer than it is now.
"bevans"


Id say so for off peak down services not for peak services.
The new line will fix the congestion problems Geelong services experience between North Melbourne and SCS.


There must be plans to electrify the new lines ?
"bevans"


No point the line Is solly for reginal diesel trains running at up to 20 minute frequencies on all 3 lines, no room for sparks and most likely no connection what so ever to the city loop


Why was this planning not incorporated with the Geelong RFR planning?
"bevans"


No Geelong but for Ballarat and Bendigo It was Investigated but dumped due to high cost and the need to use the goods lines, ARTC wouldn't have a bar at the Idea, and yes the Idea was to use the track from
South Kensington down to Sims street junction, through Bunbury Street tunnel and out to West Footscray where It would go on to a new easement to Sunshine.
  Taitset Chief Commissioner

Location: Eltham, (former) vintage safeworking capital of Melbourne
Someone mentioned how the junction will be done at West Werribee; I doubt a grade-seperated junction would be required, as once the RRL/E is constructed what traffic would there be from West Werribee onto the Werribee suburban line? Which way is freight going to run?
  SN7 Chief Commissioner

Also in line with electrification of Sydenham to Sunbury there will be a requirement to install train "Stops" or "trips" which do not exsist now, and will deem the RFR TPWS system surplus in this section as well, not as simple as hanging up a few wires. Perhaps some of the surplus TPWS equipment can be used between Ballarat & Maryborough., or on new lines built.
  RATLSNAKE Chief Train Controller

I've seen many comments that the new line will be V/Line only.  So based on that, who will be servicing the 5 new stations they plan to build along the line??? V/Line? Won't that slow existing services, if they have more stops?

Not V/Line?? Well that means electrification.....so....
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Someone mentioned how the junction will be done at West Werribee; I doubt a grade-seperated junction would be required, as once the RRL/E is constructed what traffic would there be from West Werribee onto the Werribee suburban line? Which way is freight going to run?
"Taitset"


What about the ARTC standard gauge, that would have to be grade separated
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Someone mentioned how the junction will be done at West Werribee; I doubt a grade-seperated junction would be required, as once the RRL/E is constructed what traffic would there be from West Werribee onto the Werribee suburban line? Which way is freight going to run?
"Taitset"


Thinking about this a little more.  If Geelong trains are to use the new line from West Werribee to Deer Park then they will have to cross the SG line at that point.

If suburban services are to now terminate at the proposed West Werribee location then a station is also going to be required.

Given the recent disaster over diesel spills at Spotswood or there abouts, electrification between West Werribee and Deer Park into Sunshine would be sensible as a backup route. Further, if what has been suggested is correct and we have up to 5 stations between West Werribee and Deer Park, then these would have to be serviced by sparks since people may wish to use intermediate stations. If not, then Geelong service times published under the RFR timetable will surely change (unless I am missing something).

The good news is people whishing to go from Sunshine to Geelong now have an option.  What about those geelong line passengers who use stations at Newport or Laverton?

Finally, exists a large amount of industry north of Tarneit in the new estates that have been built over the past 10 years.  Freight access to this area, which is current not possible could benefit from access to the rail network.

Regards
Brian
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

What about the ARTC standard gauge, that would have to be grade separated
"Nightfire"


Agreed.

What about SG access through to the industrial areas of the west which run nearer the new line?  What about Sg access from Deer Park to the Albion?

The options are there, the business is probably there, but is the foresight?

Regards
Brian
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
[quote="bevans"][quote="Taitset"]

Given the recent disaster over diesel spills at Spotswood or there abouts, electrification between West Werribee and Deer Park into Sunshine would be sensible as a backup route. Further, if what has been suggested is correct and we have up to 5 stations between West Werribee and Deer Park, then these would have to be serviced by sparks since people may wish to use intermediate stations. If not, then Geelong service times published under the RFR timetable will surely change (unless I am missing something).[/quote]

I would say If the Sunshine West Werribee line was to be developed as a suburban line serving the area I would have to be done with the electrification of the Bacchus Marsh line (a long way off) but suburban trains would have to exit at Sunshine and go back onto the extisting line.
  shrekman Junior Train Controller

Location: E.R.D.
What this project seems to be designed to do is eliminate the choke points in the suburban network between V/Line and Connex trains, thus allowing all to run more freely. So where are these choke points? By my reckoning they are:

Geelong Services -Werribee to Footscray

Ballarat Services- Sunshine-Footscray  

Bendigo/ Sunbury Services - Sydenham to Footscray

All broad gauge passenger services- North Melbourne to Southern Cross

Geelong service conflicts will be eliminated by the bypass from West werribee to Deer Pk.  It Just now adds these services to the Ballarat ones.  

At Sunshine a complete rebuild would be necessary.  The spark tracks would need to be grade separated from the V-line services. This could then allow the now combined Geelong/ Ballarat lines and the Bendigo lines to pass to the northern side of the suburban tracks and then through the Tottenham yard area.

At Footscray it gets tricky.Between West Footscray and Footscray there is only room for 4 tracks currently. Two of which ARTC control. I am making the assumption that the Bunbury St tunnel issues extends to West Footscray. My spin on a possible solution- A new tunnel (suitable for double stack traffic approx 2.5km long) for the ARTC lines that extends from Tottenham to Marybyrnong River where it exits onto a new bridge south of the existing one.  This would allow access for ARTC to the docks area and place the Vline services on the correct side to run around to Sth Kensington using mostly existing infrastructure.

At Nth Melbourne the old Goods lines could be reinstated to join up to a new platform 7+8 . These would extend through to Platform 15+16 (bi-directional from Nth Melb) at SCS for DMU services.  Loco hauled could gain access to SCS via a connection to the flyover.  I realise that would mean that loco hauled would not stop at Nth Melbourne but I think this would be more than made up for by the quicker access to SCS.

At the Dudley st crossing 4 new tracks need to be added.  Two for the Flyover and then 2 more for the new path into SCS  It seems ridiculous that 5 suburban and 4 country lines have to share 3 inbound/3 outbound tracks to the CBD.

I love the fact that a price tag can be put on this project  Rolling Eyes while there still seems to be no actual plans, just a concept.  Gotta love politicians!
  alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
Also in line with electrification of Sydenham to Sunbury there will be a requirement to install train "Stops" or "trips" which do not exsist now, and will deem the RFR TPWS system surplus in this section as well, not as simple as hanging up a few wires. Perhaps some of the surplus TPWS equipment can be used between Ballarat & Maryborough., or on new lines built.
"SN7"


The TPWS would not be surplus. If it was removed then VLocities could not travel at 160 from Sunbury to Sydenham. If there are both ATS and TPWS installed then sparks can run at 115, and VLocities at 160.
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
Someone mentioned how the junction will be done at West Werribee; I doubt a grade-seperated junction would be required, as once the RRL/E is constructed what traffic would there be from West Werribee onto the Werribee suburban line? Which way is freight going to run?
"Taitset"

What about the ARTC standard gauge, that would have to be grade separated
"Nightfire"

Since it is a single track and required double stack clearances, it might as well go over the broad gauge, which can tangle it up with flat junctions.

Sorry to side track just a little: what are the 2 electrified tracks to the west of platform 16 used for? I don't understand why a spark would bypass a platform face at Southern Cross? Is it used for trains running from Richmond to eq Newport for servicing/other stabling?
"bramt"

As mentioned it bit earlier, it was built for freight trains, these days the steel, log and Maryvale trains. Various tracks lead into the steel terminal, North and South Dynon, and South Kensington. The lines were probably electrified back when electric locos ran the rails and need to head over to South Dynon.

However the current layout dates to 1995 or so when the Melbourne Yard stabling sidings and train wash complex were built on the former arrivals roads. They run into a dead end and don't go anywhere else.

The tracks are signalled as up / down tracks up to the south side of Dudley Street, here a crossover links the eastern (down) track to the now bidirectional western track. From here only the western tracks is electrified, it passes alongside the former 'Hump' then splits up into a fan of electrified sidings inside the stabling yard fence. A single track continues north past the station and Dynon Road, then splits into two, one going through the train wash, the other running along the outside, they join up again under CityLink.
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
At Footscray it gets tricky.Between West Footscray and Footscray there is only room for 4 tracks currently. Two of which ARTC control. I am making the assumption that the Bunbury St tunnel issues extends to West Footscray.
"shrekman"

The informed rumblings seem to be for a pair of underground platforms north of the existing Footscray station (where the shops have just been demolished) connected by tunnel to a new bridge over the river south of those existing, and the new tracks westwards that lie south of West Footscray station:
http://forums.vicsig.net/viewtopic.php?p=29304#p29304
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
The TPWS would not be surplus. If it was removed then VLocities could not travel at 160 from Sunbury to Sydenham. If there are both ATS and TPWS installed then sparks can run at 115, and VLocities at 160.
"alstom_888m"

Whether those in charge let the two systems run in parallel is another matter. Of note, Werribee station has both TPWS grids and train stops fitted to some of the signals there.
  SN7 Chief Commissioner

I guess we will have to wait & see what signalling is deployed between Watergardens & Sunbury,  I do not believe at present an interface exsists between RFR & ATC signalling, to allow both systems to run in conjuction, otherwise surely it would have been installed between Dandenong & Pakenham, which also would allow Vlocitys to run at 160, given a bit of track upgrade,  however will leave it to the experts.

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