RRL Project - West Werribee / Southern Cross

 
  Brendan03 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
K. Rudd was on Pl 15/16 yesterday at Southern Cross, I assume it was publicity for his federal funding of this project

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  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
K. Rudd was on Pl 15/16 yesterday at Southern Cross, I assume it was publicity for his federal funding of this project
"Brendan03"

I am amazed they walked him over to it via the dingy remains of the subway, but the video on The  Age website shows the platform 12 sign on one platform in the background, and a second platform in front of it, so they did.
  alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
I guess we will have to wait & see what signalling is deployed between Watergardens & Sunbury,  I do not believe at present an interface exsists between RFR & ATC signalling, to allow both systems to run in conjuction, otherwise surely it would have been installed between Dandenong & Pakenham, which also would allow Vlocitys to run at 160, given a bit of track upgrade,  however will leave it to the experts.
"SN7"


Maybe they didn't want the extra cost of upgrading the track from Dandenong to Pakenham. However in this case, Sydenham to Sunbury is already an RFR corridor.
  Brendan03 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
K. Rudd was on Pl 15/16 yesterday at Southern Cross, I assume it was publicity for his federal funding of this project
"Brendan03"

I am amazed they walked him over to it via the dingy remains of the subway, but the video on The  Age website shows the platform 12 sign on one platform in the background, and a second platform in front of it, so they did.
"wongm"


I'm lead to believe that he entered via the Collins St Barriers so I assume they probably took him into Pl 14 then straight out into 15, to minimize time spent down there? (plus 14 would be the best way to avoid people, being that this was around 10:30am?)
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

The West Werribee to Deer Park line would be totally unnecessary if the line through to Marshall (or Waurn Pondss) were to be electrified.

The cost of running the wire would surely be less than a new 160 kmh line with no level crossings.  Even with the cost of boring out the Geelong tunnel a bit, there would be plenty of change.

The the service to Werribee could be tiered.
Every half hour, stop all from Marshall to Laverton, then Newport and Footscray.  
Every other fifteen minutes Werribee to City via Altona stop all.
Also every thirty minutes a Williamstown to City stop all.

No conflict between V/Line and Melbourne Suburban, increased frequency to Geelong and the ability for Geelong services to use the City Loop in the off peak.

The real big problem is then solved.  V/Line don't have enough platforms at Southern Cross (or don't seem to be able to use them without trains stopping on the way in).  Take the Geelong services away and V/Line should be able to cope for some future growth at Southern Cross.

Likewise, convert Geelong to sparks and V/Line can either do away with some older rolling stock or have sufficient to cope with servicing and repairs (and growth).

If Geelong people scream about losing their comfy V/Locitys, maybe some Siemens trains can be altered in the layout with better seats.  Then through run them between Geelong and Pakenham.  This would be a good use for the Siemens as they are two door and are capable of 160 kmh running.

It could be done in minimal time for a lot less cost than the Tarneit nonsense which is bound to increase Geelong train running times.

I suspect that the developer of the land at Tarneit has some sort of deal going with the Government (and/or the DOT) that will make sure that Tarneit goes ahead, irrespective of the merits of that idea.
  RATLSNAKE Chief Train Controller

Electrifying Geelong is no alternative solution, and it has nothing to do with the types of seats.  I see the points you make, but in the long run Geelong's population is growing, and converting trains to sparks isn't going to increase frequency or the amount of passengers that can be held per train for such a long distance, with so many potential choke points along the way.

Then there's the old calculated fact that sparks from GLG to MEL would require more coal energy to create electricity, than diesel fuel used by locos.
Sparks are for Metro areas, and in recent years outer-metro travel.  Geelong is not an outer suburb of Melbourne anymore than Ballarat is.  It's an entire city altogether, one which is continually growing.

Why is it that only in Eastern Australia do we see all three of the capital cities as the "only cities" in each state?  From a PT perspective, the "greater melbourne" idea is getting out of hand.  The suburbs which many of spark lines terminate are not "Melbourne", but the governments and PT have made it as such.  How long is it until over half the state is considered "part of Melbourne"?
  ppiglet Chief Train Controller

Ratlsnake.  I see the points you make about the choke points on the Geelong Line, however, that aside, there is every reason that the electrification of the Geelong line SHOULD be done as an alternative.

It would save them a lot of money that is otherwise being put into the Tarneit bypass. In my estimation it will only cost about $270 mill to electrify the line from Werribee to Waurn Ponds.

To say Geelong is not part of Melbourne, well whoever said it was?  Electrification is very effective for city commute, but also very effective for very high use regional travel – just look at the set ups in Europe or Great Britain – some of them are 3 or 400 km’s long.  You only need the number of passengers and frequency of services to be the right mix, and the whole project pays off very well indeed.  This I believe to be the case with the Geelong line.

For starters, the operating costs would be more than halved.  Evidence shows that maintenance costs of electric vehicles is about 20% that of diesel. Currently the maintenance on the diesels for the Geelong corridor is about $40mill per year.  With twice the number of vehicles with electrification (a train every 20-30 mins), the operating costs are still reduced by about $20 mill even if you take into account maintaining the overhead infrastructure cabling.  Thats more money for more trains; or in 10 years, thats $200 million, 10 x $20mill, that will pay off the electrification).

As far as the argument for comfort of trains, who said you can't electrify the vlocities?  In fact the original plan put by National Express to the Kennett Government for RFR was for electric vlocities. Makes perfect sense.

This will shave about 10 mins off the travelling time to Melb, as electric trains accelerate about 30% quicker than diesel trains.

Further, with the argument about carbon emissions being greater from the electric consumption rather than diesel consumption, this only holds true for the time being in the most polluting state in the world (Victoria) due to coal fired power stations.  This is by no means a permanent situation, as new renewable sources are being built every year, even around Geelong new wind farms could be built just to power this train line and thus REDUCE emissions by going electric.  When you're talking a 100 year lifetime of the electric train line, the argument of where you get the power is a little off-side, especially when the situation is being solved by proper planning and natural progress.

Then there's the 'spark effect': more people are attracted to use trains when they're electrified.  There's enough empirical evidence of this phenomenon; a little hard to establish why, I realise.  Anyway, according to my calcs, with the current patronage growing by 3% a year, it more than justifys the project.  Also there's more variety available as to what trains they can use, further increasing patronage, especially for introducing short run shuttles from Waurn Ponds to Corio or Werribee etc, they can use Seimens trains.

Finally, addressing the bottle necks at Werribee and Newport.  A third line at Werribee for express bypass; grade seperations at Werribee, Hoppers and Laverton; and a third line either between Newport and Footscray, or via Laverton Nth to Tottenham will all cost a lot less than the $7 or so billion put up for the Tarneit line, and it will offer more service reliability and variety, and offer a Geelong to Melbourne express time of 35 minutes max - for about 30% of the cost.

I’m not saying don’t build the Tarneit link.  Just do it when we build the Outer Ring Rail to the Airport etc.  The Tarneit link is a fantastic idea for Western Suburbs, but actually a negative for the Geelong Line, and the Geelong line really deserves the best if we’re looking at decentralising Melbourne and encouraging effective sustainable transport and growth between the two huge demographics.
  RATLSNAKE Chief Train Controller

I never made a point about train comfort, I intentionally ignored it.

Anyways, to make my point clear I am actually against the Tarneit link, have been since its first mention.  I agree that it is a waste of so much money.  You make some valid points about electrification, and the like.

However I think it's fair to say currently, it does not look like it will happen in the next few decades, purely because of the decisions & investments the government has been making.

I think the "New Deal" of the 80s improved upon what was done 30 years earlier, but perhaps back then they should have thought about the next 50-60 years, and put some of your suggestions into play from back then?
  ppiglet Chief Train Controller

Thanks for the clarification.  Well if we get a change of Government in 2010, I think they'll seriously consider electrification, especially for the saving of 2 or 3 billion dollars.

The Tarneit connection from Wyndham Vale to Caroline Springs is still 3 or 4 years away at current pace of work, so here's knowing that there will be a serious review if there is a change in policy.

I plan to have some conversations at higher levels in Melbourne and Geelong to attempt to start some alternative views.  I think it will be worth the effort.  I'd really like to see Geelong moved closer to Melbourne by means of better and faster connections.

I mean, some politician was talking here in Geelong about lobbying for another lane to be put on the Princes Freeway between the two cities in 5 years time.  Are they serious??  Put $2b into the electrification and most of that extra traffic will be taken off the road.  Much cheaper alternative.
  ppiglet Chief Train Controller

Further.....

From The Age today, 21/05/09


It is written: borrow and ye shall prosper
By: Kenneth Davidson

.......The second most egregious example of waste where the return on capital cannot cover the cost of capital is the $4.3 billion regional rail express, involving the building a 40-kilometre dual rail track from west Werribee to Southern Cross Station via Tarneit, Sunshine and a tunnel linking the western suburbs with the CBD.

The proposal was first advanced by the State Government's east-west transport needs Study by Sir Rod Eddington last year and was subject to a Government-commissioned review by Ed Dotson, a former Victorian transport official who worked for the World Bank for the past two decades.

He pointed out that "the standard approach to examining the technical feasibility of a project is through feasibility studies ....... which is then subject to more detailed study in the second stage."

Dotson said the Eddington report provided what could be termed a "pre-feasibility study" that "provided limited information on the problems and costs but (still) concludes the tunnel is the most appropriate solution to the capacity problem. The assumptions … require robust investigation and discussion."

If there was any vigorous discussion of the Eddington proposals and the technical work required to bring the proposal to the feasibility stage, it remains secret.

What we do know is the project was recommended by Infrastructure Australia, which is chaired by Eddington. It was approved by Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese, who has rejected requests for the information on which the decision was made, on the grounds that the advice is "commercial in confidence".

Rubbish. The process has been corrupted. Decisions such as the $43 billion for national broadband network and the $4.3 billion for the regional rail express will impoverish the nation because the purpose they are meant to perform can be done more cheaply by other means. They waste borrowings that could be better spent on other infrastructure projects that will generate wealth to pay off the rise in government debt.

Kenneth Davidson is a senior columnist
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The method of traction used on the Geelong Line is irrelevant.

Electrification would not address the capacity constraints which limit Footscray - Newport to 18 trains an hour , and Laverton - Werribee to 13 trains an hour .   The issue to be addressed is additional track capacity and separating VLP and Met services . Electrification to Geelong would not address either of those issues.

Geelong electrification will NOT happen for these simple reasons :

1. The huge capital cost of the electrical infrastructure.
2. The on going maintenance costs associated with the electrical overhead and substations .
3. The necessity to have an entirely new fleet of EMU trains which could only be used on the Geelong line.

All these costs are totally avoided with modern DMU's that can be used over the whole VLP network .

Finally in terms of fuel efficiency and greenhouse gas emissions per pax carried VLP V/Locity trains are the most fuel efficient trains of all pax train types operated in Victoria .
  hotdogpants1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Here.
Plus, If there happened to be a power outage affecting the line, the distance would leave a lot of trains stranded...
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
Plus, If there happened to be a power outage affecting the line, the distance would leave a lot of trains stranded...
"hotdogpants1"
By the same logic, we can't have diesel powered trains because the fuel tanks can fall off, they can't be steam powered because they might run out of water, they can't be horse drawn because the horses might get spooked, and we can't have people dragging them because they might drop dead. Wink
  hotdogpants1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Here.
Plus, If there happened to be a power outage affecting the line, the distance would leave a lot of trains stranded...
"hotdogpants1"
By the same logic, we can't have diesel powered trains because the fuel tanks can fall off, they can't be steam powered because they might run out of water, they can't be horse drawn because the horses might get spooked, and we can't have people dragging them because they might drop dead. Wink
"wongm"

I'm not even going to bother explaining what I mean to you. Rolling Eyes
  VBAndy Chief Commissioner

Now now Dylan, Marcus owned you fair and square. Be a gentlemen and say thank you Laughing
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
I'm not even going to bother explaining what I mean to you. Rolling Eyes
"hotdogpants1"

Assuming you used the 1500V DC system used in suburbia, you wouldn't end up with many stranded trains.

When the electrification was first carried out in Melbourne they relied on 12 or so massive substations, by 1952 it was 23 substations. By 1985 there were 69 substations, but of smaller capacity. Even today, if you disrupted one of the key substations for inner Melbourne you would stop all trains located in area bounded by Richmond, Flinders Street, Jolimont, and half of the City Loop - that would be over a dozen trains, but the general gridlock of backed up trains elsewhere.

The Gippsland line has substations 10 kilometres apart. If you did that for the Geelong line substations would be at Werribee (existing), down end of Manor, halfway between Little River and Lara, Elders IXL (Corio), North Geelong, and Marshall.

With a 1 hour service frequency on the Geelong line there trains in opposite directions cross at Newport and Lara, so it would be only 2 trains in the section on the down side of Werribee. Electrifying for 1 TPH would be stupid. In peak assuming trains 15 minutes apart you still only have 3 trains on the line in each direction.

That still isn't many services using the line, looking at a diagram for Werribee - Geelong, express DMU trains can run at 4 minute headways, a stopper following an express can be only 3 minutes behind, an express following a stopper needs to be 10 minute behind, while loco hauled services need 7 minutes.
  hotdogpants1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Here.
Now now Dylan, Marcus owned you fair and square. Be a gentlemen and say thank you Laughing
"VBAndy"

Heheh Laughing I'm just tired and bit annoyed.
What I meant to say was that the distance between stations is longer than suburbs, so if the overheads manages to cut out in power, the train will be stranded perhaps the Werribee-Little River section- Unless the urban sprawl reaches there by the time the government would ever want to electrify to Geelong (which it probably will, knowing the government wouldn't want to spend that much money anytime soon).
Anyway, enough said. I should get to sleep now. Laughing
Cheers
  hotdogpants1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Here.
You raise a fair point there Marcus- Goes to show what little research I do. Laughing
I guess you could electrify to Geelong, it is it's own city, plus its just around the bay, key shipping port at Corio, etc.
Sorry for losing my temper. EmbarassedSmile
Cheers
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Geelong electrification will NOT happen for these simple reasons :

1. The huge capital cost of the electrical infrastructure.
2. The on going maintenance costs associated with the electrical overhead and substations .
3. The necessity to have an entirely new fleet of EMU trains which could only be used on the Geelong line.


1. Capital cost of overhead infrastructure compared to 20+ klms of brand new 160 kmh line, complete with bridges to eliminate level crossings.
No contest!

2. Maintenance of overhead compared to maintenance of diesel motors, transmissions and fuelling facilities.
No contest!

3. No neccessity to have a new fleet of EMUs.  The Siemens trains can operate the long distance line quite adequately.  The new XTraps can go in their place on other runs.  More EMUs can be ordered in future instead of ordering more V/Line DMUs.

Finally in terms of fuel efficiency and greenhouse gas emissions per pax carried VLP V/Locity trains are the most fuel efficient trains of all pax train types operated in Victoria .


Big claim!  Can you provide a source for this claim?
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

The method of traction used on the Geelong Line is irrelevant.

Electrification would not address the capacity constraints which limit Footscray - Newport to 18 trains an hour , and Laverton - Werribee to 13 trains an hour . The issue to be addressed is additional track capacity and separating VLP and Met services . Electrification to Geelong would not address either of those issues.


Laverton - Werribee at 13 trains per hour is not bad.  If 4 of those trains per hour continue on past Werribee to Geelong, jobs done.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

Laverton - Werribee at 13 trains per hour is not bad.  If 4 of those trains per hour continue on past Werribee to Geelong, jobs done.
"DalyWaters"


That would cater for Geelong - Werribee - Geelong passengers but where are the seats going to come from to serve the Geelong - Melbourne - Geelong passengers ?

Plus that was what the DoI was going to do If they were going to electrify the Geelong line, But It was found that extending Weribee trains to Geelong would make the journy longer than pre RFR, that would be a downgrade of the Geelong line services.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

V/line Monthly Newsletter - May 2008 :
Ranking  Best to Worst  -

Grams of CO2 emission generated per km per pax carried by train type  :

1.  VLP Diesel train
2.  Electric train
3.  Ethanol bus
4.  Diesel bus
5.  Electric tram

Electrifying the existing route is NOT an alternative to the RRL dedicated line as it would NOT address the key issues of separating VLP and Met trains, and would not provide any additional pathing capacity for either VLP or Connex.

The thing was examined by DOI pre RFR and the case of any Country electrification was very poor, and the numbers as suspected will not stack up . So no Geelong electrification  QED .
  michinyon Chief Commissioner

Grams of CO2 emission generated per km per pax carried by train type :

1. VLP Diesel train
2. Electric train
3. Ethanol bus
4. Diesel bus
5. Electric tram


How would the diesel train's performance look if it had to stop every 200 metres like a tram does ?   Not too good.
  aussiebbq Assistant Commissioner

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Finally in terms of fuel efficiency and greenhouse gas emissions per pax carried VLP V/Locity trains are the most fuel efficient trains of all pax train types operated in Victoria .

Big claim!  Can you provide a source for this claim?
"DalyWaters"


V/line Monthly Newsletter - May 2008 :
Ranking Best to Worst -

Grams of CO2 emission generated per km per pax carried by train type :

1. VLP Diesel train
2. Electric train
3. Ethanol bus
4. Diesel bus
5. Electric tram
"kuldalai"


That would be June 2008
http://www.vline.com.au/pdf/media/issue37.pdf

Vline sourced there infomation from the Public Transport Users Association
http://www.ptua.org.au/
However I was unable to find this info on there website
  richiebogie Chief Train Controller

I'm not sure whether those statistics include the CO2 needed to drill oil, transport the oil, process the oil, distribute the diesel, carry the diesel on the end locomotive along with carrying diesel-electric generators.

On the other hand the coal in Victoria is mined close to the powerstations, the electricity is delivered via wires not ships and roads, electric trains are relatively light, and I believe the Siemens trains have regenerative capability on braking.

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