PIDS going bonkers

 
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
Something weird seems to happening to the PIDS at Flinders Street...

An Alamein train continuing on to Syndal and Glen Waverley! (snapped on May 05, 2010)

[img]http://railgallery.wongm.com/connex-bits/image/595/E104_0871.jpg[/img]

I have also heard of Cranbourne trains displayed as continuing to Pakenham.

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  richardlu_yy Chief Train Controller

Location: Singapore
Has happened before, this time having Blackburn and Laburnum beyong Alamein. This was when Connex was still around, they probably haven't fixed it since then especially when you can see the Connex logo when "Please listen to announcements" is displayed.
[bigimg]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2634/4165691914_901b7966d8_o.jpg[/bigimg]
  712M Chief Commissioner

I've noticed this for a Cranbourne train before:

Richmond
South Yarra
Hawksburn
Toorak
Armadale
Malvern
Caulfield
Carnegie
Murrumbeena
Hughesdale
Oakleigh
Huntingdale
Clayton
Westall
Springvale
Sandown Park
Noble Park
Yarraman
Dandenong
Merinda Park
Cranbourne
Berwick
Beaconsfield
Officer
Pakenham
Frankston

I will take a picture next time I see it.
  tomohawk Chief Commissioner

Location: Getting The Met to get around
It SEEMS to only happen if the Alamein is displayed after a Glen Waverley. I watched one the other day go from a regular GWY service, to an Alamein-Sydnal-GWY, to "Listen For Announcements" then to a regular ALM service.

Edit: And yes, I did run the "Outer Circle Special" according to the PIDs the other day, and in a *facepalm* of epic proportions did have more than one person on the train at Alamein look puzzelled when I changed ends, and asked if we were still going to Glen Waverley...

Reply, "Haven't been able to do that for quite a few decades now. PIDs were wrong. Your best bet is to walk from here, down there to East Malvern station. It's very close, and will be quicker than catching a train all the way back to Burnley."
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
What an absolutely stupid system.

#1, you do a clear screen before you display a new train.

#2, as for the list of stops it must show, they need to wipe that memory clean.  A simple loop which goes through each item in the array, which asigns to it the value of "" (Blank)  then you go and insert the required stops into that array.

Which of these two have failed.
  Webslave Site Admin

Location: Altona, Melbourne
Jim,

You're out of your depth.  Please don't presume to know how the PIDs work, as without knowing them too much in depth myself I can already tell you that you're incorrect purely from a logical perspective.

Ask someone what's wrong, don't tell them.
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Ok Webslave, what could be the problem.

Could you tell?
  Webslave Site Admin

Location: Altona, Melbourne
Like I said, I don't know the system in too much depth.  Watch the way the system goes about changing the screen output and see what assumptions you can take away from how it works.
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
What seems to be the problem with the display system is, the system does not refresh something when it needs to display a new train service on the screen.

In the last hour or so, I have whipped up two different webpages, each of them working on two models based on webpages.

Both of these load an XML file, each XML file is a different line.

http://www.tranzitjim.com/pids1.htm

and

http://www.tranzitjim.com/pids2.htm

also shortly, there will also be...

http://www.tranzitjim.com/pids3.htm


So very simple for me to set up a working example where the whole display changes each time.

#1, works with the .innerHTML feature of javascript, and replaces the whole HTML content inside the body tags.

#2, is a webpage which has fixed display fields upon it, shown by the many input tags.  As you click on one of the choices along the bottom, the whole list is inserted, one stop in one input line.  When you click on another choice, that will clear the whole lot FIRST, THEN goes and inserts the next list of stations for the next train.

#3, should be ready in say half an hours time, is much like #2, except instead of clearing the input tags first, then rolling out the next trains list, this one just does it once with the roll out of the contents of an array variable.


I fail to see how, weather it be Connex, Metro OR DOI, could fail to employ someone who would do such a simple job at programming, which would avoid any such dumb displays.
  heisdeadjim Chief Commissioner

I will say, it's always perfect on a test bench :p

I will also say this: if you're relying on those screens you've already failed Public Transport Usership 101.

As an IT dude, the term "RTFM" should be applicable. Or in this case, "RTFTT" :p
  Webslave Site Admin

Location: Altona, Melbourne
I fail to see how, weather it be Connex, Metro OR DOI, could fail to employ someone who would do such a simple job at programming, which would avoid any such dumb displays.
"tranzitjim"
Jim,

I had a look at your examples there, but unfortunately none of them were able to tell me what train was waiting on platform 3 at Flinders St at 3.08pm today.

Why didn't they have it right?
  heisdeadjim Chief Commissioner

TJ, you're assuming a static input, that is, platform X will have train y at Z time.

So, it's quite easy to code a display system to read off the form.

Now, assume it's a live spreadsheet and someone's screwing with it.
  Speed Minister for Railways

Are the displays in question connected to PRIDE? Are there two PRIDE systems in use at different stations throughout the network? If so, how are updates communicated between them?

The point of these questions is that they'd give a better idea of what to use for an analogy than a flat file or a shared XL spreadsheet.
  nr_guru Junior Train Controller

saw this one a little while ago

[img]http://images.fotopic.net/124blp.jpg[/img]

http://russellsgallery.fotopic.net/p64540321.html
  Kerpal Deputy Commissioner

Just adds to the mystery of Metro.  Why are people so concerned about the destination ... just enjoy the journey  LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing
  perwaynut Deputy Commissioner

Location: In the Land of the Mighty Hawks, and our favourite footy President Jeff
Are the displays in question connected to PRIDE? Are there two PRIDE systems in use at different stations throughout the network? If so, how are updates communicated between them?

The point of these questions is that they'd give a better idea of what to use for an analogy than a flat file or a shared XL spreadsheet.
"Speed"


Maybe you should ask Lay Clueless...oops...Clay Lucas....he seems to have all the answers on Metro....
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
The three examples I have shown are, exclusively the ones you find on the platforms.

The Foyer types, which could exist elsewhere, to tell where a certain platform a train departs from. That should be very similar to what I have done.

I will look at doing some examples today or tomorrow.


The ideal thing would be to have these database tables

****** #1 **** list of trips in a day *******
-----Route number, Incl. Destenation and stopping conditions.  This will select which item out of #2 you would need.
-----Departure time
-----Which time

You may also
----- Incoming route, this will help set the points for its arrival
----- Arrival time

This would be a default list, and would be what the displays will show if no one changes the settings

There should be a means to re-set the settings for the day, like if platform X has to be closed, and trains at that platform need to be moved to other platforms.


**** #2 ****** Route information *****
----- List of stops, where the display shows the list of stops, this will also contain other information to be shown on the platform displays.
----- Destenation, this can default to the last stop in the list of stops, but you may want the destenation display to show 'destenation via route'
----- Short message for Foyer type displays. Like the words 'stops all stations' or 'limited express'
----- Exit route to select. This will help the signal box to determine which points need to be set in which way for the train to exit the station.



A very simple circuit, do not need a complex device like a PC, it should be easy enough to do with stuff I can get from Jaycar or Dick Smith Electronics.

Ok, this will do for now.
  Webslave Site Admin

Location: Altona, Melbourne
The three examples I have shown are, exclusively the ones you find on the platforms.

The Foyer types, which could exist elsewhere, to tell where a certain platform a train departs from. That should be very similar to what I have done.

I will look at doing some examples today or tomorrow.


The ideal thing would be to have these database tables

****** #1 **** list of trips in a day *******
-----Route number, Incl. Destenation and stopping conditions.  This will select which item out of #2 you would need.
-----Departure time
-----Which time

You may also
----- Incoming route, this will help set the points for its arrival
----- Arrival time
"tranzitjim"
Who do you think would be telling your system what run to display?  What do you do about ad-hoc runs?  How does the system handle temporary changes to stopping conditions?

This would be a default list, and would be what the displays will show if no one changes the settings
"tranzitjim"
So how does your system know that the train is on-time?  How does it know when a train has departed the platform?
There should be a means to re-set the settings for the day, like if platform X has to be closed, and trains at that platform need to be moved to other platforms.
"tranzitjim"
Are you under the impression that the same run ends up on the same platform every day?

**** #2 ****** Route information *****
----- List of stops, where the display shows the list of stops, this will also contain other information to be shown on the platform displays.
----- Destenation, this can default to the last stop in the list of stops, but you may want the destenation display to show 'destenation via route'
"tranzitjim"
What about when the final station name is not the same of the route?
----- Short message for Foyer type displays. Like the words 'stops all stations' or 'limited express'
----- Exit route to select. This will help the signal box to determine which points need to be set in which way for the train to exit the station.
"tranzitjim"
Wait, you want your system to tell the signalers what to do?
A very simple circuit, do not need a complex device like a PC, it should be easy enough to do with stuff I can get from Jaycar or Dick Smith Electronics.

Ok, this will do for now.
"tranzitjim"
I can't wait!
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
As stated in my above post, you would have some manual override.  This would give the human operator the option to override any of the settings in the list for that day.

The above is the simple basic version.

Database #1 above are for the SHEDULED departure and SHEDULED platform to dock at.


A simple display is all you need for the use of the member of staff.

FOR THE DEFAULT SETTINGS as provided by a row of data in Database #1,.......
++A display to show the run/trip number
++16x2 character dot matrix display for the Destenation
++2+2 digit 7 segment display for the SHEDULED departure time
++A 0.5+1 7 segment display for the SHEDULED platform to dock at

FOR THE ACTURAL SETTINGS as being set by the days operations, weather this be human or computer or etc.
++2+2 digit, 7 segment display for ACTURAL departure time
++0.5 & 1 digit, 7 segment display for ACTURAL platform to dock at


OPERATING CONTROL
++ (Plat +1) Adjust the platform up in value by 1
++ (Plat -1) Adjust the platform down in value by 1
++ (Plat =d) Set platform to the default setting as in the database list

++ To adjust the time (M+1) (M-1) (M=d) (H:M=d) perhaps additions for the Hours.
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
***** DATABASE EXAMPLE *****

#2, list of stops.  This would be much like the XML files I have done yesterday.

You can do it two ways,
#1, have a specific table row for each short route and express combination or

#2, have just one for each route out of the location, then in DB#1, have a column which says we want a trip with terminates at stop #5, or runs express #2 to #6.  The system would adjust the XML file to suit that.


With #1, - specific table row for each short and express variant.

#1 = Frankston; stops all stations
#2 = Frankston; express South Yarra to Malvern
#3 = Frankston; express SY - Caulfield - Moorabbin
#4 = Cheltenham; stops all stations.


*** TRIPS DATABASE TABLE *****

The default trips for a Monday.

Trip;Time;Plat;Route;

#001;12:30pm;#7; #1 ( Frankston - stops all stations) ; Set route to Richmond #4
#002;12:45pm;#8; #1 (Frankston - stops all stations ) ; set route to Richmond #4
#003;1:00pm;#7; #2 (Frankston - Express Sy to Malvern); Set route to Richmond #4

This is only a very short example.
  Webslave Site Admin

Location: Altona, Melbourne
As stated in my above post, you would have some manual override.  This would give the human operator the option to override any of the settings in the list for that day.

The above is the simple basic version.

Database #1 above are for the SHEDULED departure and SHEDULED platform to dock at.


A simple display is all you need for the use of the member of staff.
"tranzitjim"
What member of staff did you have in mind, and how do they know where the train is going?

FOR THE DEFAULT SETTINGS as provided by a row of data in Database #1,.......
++A display to show the run/trip number
++16x2 character dot matrix display for the Destenation
++2+2 digit 7 segment display for the SHEDULED departure time
++A 0.5+1 7 segment display for the SHEDULED platform to dock at[/quote]That would be a (physically) very wide display!  Dot matrix displays generally aren't measured in character width.

FOR THE ACTURAL SETTINGS as being set by the days operations, weather this be human or computer or etc.
++2+2 digit, 7 segment display for ACTURAL departure time
++0.5 & 1 digit, 7 segment display for ACTURAL platform to dock at
"tranzitjim"
Would you display this at the same time as the scheduled?  How would you determine the actual times and platforms?

OPERATING CONTROL
++ (Plat +1) Adjust the platform up in value by 1
++ (Plat -1) Adjust the platform down in value by 1
++ (Plat =d) Set platform to the default setting as in the database list

++ To adjust the time (M+1) (M-1) (M=d) (H:M=d) perhaps additions for the Hours.
"tranzitjim"
Don't forget changing the destination, stopping plan, showing information screens, next train on platform...
  Webslave Site Admin

Location: Altona, Melbourne
***** DATABASE EXAMPLE *****

#2, list of stops.  This would be much like the XML files I have done yesterday.
"tranzitjim"
Who would generate these XML files?  How big would you envisage the XML file being?

You can do it two ways,
#1, have a specific table row for each short route and express combination or

#2, have just one for each route out of the location, then in DB#1, have a column which says we want a trip with terminates at stop #5, or runs express #2 to #6.  The system would adjust the XML file to suit that.


With #1, - specific table row for each short and express variant.

#1 = Frankston; stops all stations
#2 = Frankston; express South Yarra to Malvern
#3 = Frankston; express SY - Caulfield - Moorabbin
#4 = Cheltenham; stops all stations.
"tranzitjim"
How are you going to foresee every possible permutation?

*** TRIPS DATABASE TABLE *****

The default trips for a Monday.

Trip;Time;Plat;Route;

#001;12:30pm;#7; #1 ( Frankston - stops all stations) ; Set route to Richmond #4
#002;12:45pm;#8; #1 (Frankston - stops all stations ) ; set route to Richmond #4
#003;1:00pm;#7; #2 (Frankston - Express Sy to Malvern); Set route to Richmond #4

This is only a very short example.
"tranzitjim"
What's all this 'Set route to Richmond #4' business?
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
**** MY AWNSERS to QUESTIONS FORM WEBSLAVE *****

***Who do you think would be telling your system what run to display?

When you are talking about the sheduled timetabled runs, which would be the bulk of the trips.

You would have them set when they are doing the timetable.
++This is the full timetable of the services in the new timetable
++Here is the full docking shedule for trains at this location, and do so for each location.

***What do you do about ad-hoc runs?  How does the system handle temporary changes to stopping conditions?

The system would have the option of where an operator, weather human or computer via a network, would be able to insert special once off trips like when SRHC or Steamrail wants to run a trip somewhere.

It would be possible to do a calender of events, where you have once off trips on each day over a month or two, and be able to set them in advance by such.

As for to change existing services, to cut short at stop #12, rather than go all the way to #18, or to not run express between #5 to #9,  that can be done by the operator.


*** So how does your system know that the train is on-time?  How does it know when a train has departed the platform?

There are a few things, #1, sensors in the tracks. When it detects a train has gone, it will know the train has gone.

Also, the manual override I have said on a post above, it would be possible for the system to be told that train #1921 in the list will depart at 12:33 rather than the sheduled 12:30


***Are you under the impression that the same run ends up on the same platform every day?

Strictly speaking, the 12:30 departure for Frankston on weekdays, SHOULD depart from the same platform always.

As for should the 12:45 also depart from the same platform as the 12:30, this is not an issue.  The list of services in table #1 will specify the platform, where it will also specify that the 12:30 service is a train bound for the route #1, where in database #2, route #1 is Frankston stopping all stations.


***What about when the final station name is not the same of the route?
What do you mean by this?

***Wait, you want your system to tell the signalers what to do?

--- A train to Frankston, only has three possbile ways out from Flinders street.  This being,
.....via City loop
....direct to Richmond platform #4
...direct to Richmond platform #6

If your going to show a train which is going to Frankston, and NOT running via the city loop, then you would want the tracks/points to be set to either platform #4, or #6 at Richmond.
  Webslave Site Admin

Location: Altona, Melbourne
**** MY AWNSERS to QUESTIONS FORM WEBSLAVE *****

***Who do you think would be telling your system what run to display?

When you are talking about the sheduled timetabled runs, which would be the bulk of the trips.

You would have them set when they are doing the timetable.
++This is the full timetable of the services in the new timetable
++Here is the full docking shedule for trains at this location, and do so for each location.
"tranzitjim"
So you'll need more staff for your system?  Expensive...

Now, how do these staff know where the train approaching the platform is heading to (eg; at FSS)?  Our trains all look very similar.

***What do you do about ad-hoc runs?  How does the system handle temporary changes to stopping conditions?

The system would have the option of where an operator, weather human or computer via a network, would be able to insert special once off trips like when SRHC or Steamrail wants to run a trip somewhere.
"tranzitjim"
Sounds like a lot of typing and training for ordinary station staff.  Particularly when an occupation is meaning four or five lines have disruptions!

It would be possible to do a calender of events, where you have once off trips on each day over a month or two, and be able to set them in advance by such.
"tranzitjim"
These one-off trips often run late, and come in on odd platforms.  How do you account for that?  What about empty car runs, or trains being sent to North Melbourne yard?  Sometimes these trains arrive and leave on a full service, other times, it's empty cars.  Who is going to tell the staff member operating the system where it's going?

As for to change existing services, to cut short at stop #12, rather than go all the way to #18, or to not run express between #5 to #9,  that can be done by the operator.
"tranzitjim"
It would make for a very busy shift when something goes wrong!  Imagine the spelling mistakes, too!  Who is to say they will always enter the data correctly when under pressure?

*** So how does your system know that the train is on-time?  How does it know when a train has departed the platform?

There are a few things, #1, sensors in the tracks. When it detects a train has gone, it will know the train has gone.
"tranzitjim"
How do you plan to accomplish this?  And have it feed into your system?  What about splitting trains on the platform?
Also, the manual override I have said on a post above, it would be possible for the system to be told that train #1921 in the list will depart at 12:33 rather than the sheduled 12:30
"tranzitjim"
What about when the train is sitting on the platform waiting for a driver or similar?  How does the operator know this is the case, much less when the driver is going to show up and the train be ready for departure?

***Are you under the impression that the same run ends up on the same platform every day?

Strictly speaking, the 12:30 departure for Frankston on weekdays, SHOULD depart from the same platform always.
"tranzitjim"
I didn't ask whether it should.  I asked whether you are under the impression that it does?

***What about when the final station name is not the same of the route?
What do you mean by this?
"tranzitjim"
I mean exactly what I asked.  What happens when the last station on the line doesn't share the name of the line itself?

***Wait, you want your system to tell the signalers what to do?

--- A train to Frankston, only has three possbile ways out from Flinders street.  This being,
.....via City loop
....direct to Richmond platform #4
...direct to Richmond platform #6

If your going to show a train which is going to Frankston, and NOT running via the city loop, then you would want the tracks/points to be set to either platform #4, or #6 at Richmond.
"tranzitjim"
No, you didn't answer my question.  Do you want your system to tell the signalers what to do?  Or, to put it another way, do you want your system to decide which way the points should be set and do it?
  tranzitjim Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
For future reference, I shall provide this link, it is a directory to all of my PIDS webpage thingies.


http://www.tranzitjim.com/pidsdir.htm


You will notice an example of a 'manual operators display'.  This is almost complete.

Just click on the 'show special' link when you first load, then click on whichever one appears.  See how the rest of the display works.

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