New locomotives

 
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
They need to get rod of the 2 strokes
"muff558"


Which rod? Two strokes can have 6 to 16?  Laughing

Seriously, two strokes aren't the issue. The age is the issue. Modern EMD's are perfectly reliable and fuel efficient. I think the fuel efficiency, one area where GE used to have a considerable advantage over EMD, is not quite such a handicap for EMD now.

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  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania

All the above is a big "if" though!
"12CSVT"

That it is mate. i agree on your opinions too. I have a feeling the Government won't be stuffing around with these anyway, not enough information and hard figures.


One last thing that hasn't been considered is whether the local drivers get input into the cab design. Australians expect decent working conditions unlike the Chinese.
"12CSVT"

Thats another big thing too. I've seen some pics of the "DL" for Kiwirail, they have ugly cabs, very ugly. Also double cabbed.
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
Another thing we should think of, workshop staff. Dunno about everyone on here from Tasmania, but i remember the good ole days of when we got those other yank tanks, err ALCo's, 830 class locos. The workshop staff didn't want to stick a socket, screw driver to them. Maybe a knockometer instead!.

Also when the GMs came here, again workshop staff didn't want to know about them, happy to work on EE locos. I don't know if these days thats the same point however. If the government go down the chinese built locos, it means more money spent to train workshop staff on these new locos.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!

Thats another big thing too. I've seen some pics of the "DL" for Kiwirail, they have ugly cabs, very ugly. Also double cabbed.


Ugly cabs have no bearing on whether they are comfortable or not for the crews. Actually, cabs designed around crew comfort can tend towards ugly more than attractive.
  wanderer53 Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: front left seat EE set now departed
One last thing that hasn't been considered is whether the local drivers get input into the cab design. Australians expect decent working conditions unlike the Chinese


Indeed the Kiwi Rail drivers have had input into the layout of the cabs, they have had since about 1965 when the NZR bought the Di class. Cab design in NZ has been evolved since then with both GM(EMD) and GE being forced to accept the NZR cab layouts for the Df and Dx class's  Indeed after intially telling the NZR to get stuffed GM went on to be so impressed with the Kiwi cab that they went on to offer it as an option and it later became the basis for the GM comfort and safety cab options.

They may look ugly from the outside, but then look at the EMD and GE offerings to Europe (british class 66 and 70), but should prove comfortable enough inside.
  wanderer53 Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: front left seat EE set now departed
Of course. If the Chinese locos can match EMD and GE reliability and MTU offer local maintenance support and easy access to spare parts, with not just a economic purchase price, but also economic servicing costs, the benefits of buying would be a no brainer.


This is the bit that does make me wonder about the wisdom of buying MTU. European diesel engine design changes very rapidly and whilst for fuel economy they beat EMD and GE hands down the availability of spare parts in the future is a much greater concern. Still if you pay half the price for a loco and throw it away in 20 years instead of 40 then the capital costs are still in your favour.
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
I know that Steve. Just the front cab window line looks to be a bit short at the bottom and to much at the top.

Anyway, looking at the prime mover specs of the Kiwi Rail "DL" locos, powered buy MTU.
http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/products/engine-program/diesel-engines-for-rail-traction/diesel-engines-for-push-pull-trainslocomotives/

Here is what they have, in how many cylinders and power.
  trainiac Chief Train Controller

East Tamar has no real expertise in anything anymore. Another of PN's little tricks. Most workshop staff are labour hire from what various people have said over the last few years. Labour hire tends not to be the cream of any trade. MTU does have a presence in Australia, especially in marine and power applications.
In the end though, none of our little musings on here will have any bearing on what does end up coming here. Agenda's have been long set, whether right or wrong
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
Actually, what Jimmy has raised about ETJ prompts an interesting prospect. Recent arrangements around the country have had loco builders not only supply the locos, but also supply a total package - maintenance and even leasing arrangements, with one well known arrangement being "Power By The Hour" as was done with the Freightcorp '82' & '90' classes.

Speculation about an actual purchase may be well off the mark. There is every possibility D-EDI or UG or even someone else entirely, could offer a full package including a 'Power By The Hour' loco lease (not purchase, saving on considerable capital outlay, with subsequent depreciation) and take-over of ETJ as the maintenance base. If that sort of arrangement was considered, the Chinese option may fall by the wayside, unless MTU stepped in to take over ETJ and own the locos. Much more likely only UG or D-EDI would consider such an arrangement, which would probably be a better economic proposition for Tasrail, where a large capital outlay may be just to hard to come by (or being swallowed by purchasing essential rolling stock (wagons))
  wanderer53 Sir Nigel Gresley

Location: front left seat EE set now departed
MTU do have a presence in Australia, that is where they will be servicing the Kiwi Rail Loco's from.

http://www.mtudda.com.au
  trainiac Chief Train Controller

MTU have supplied and have maintenance contracts for engines for NZ naval vessels. I believe this was a major influence on their choice.
An interesting fact - Dalian own the rights to the Ruston RK270 engine, the ultimate development of the EE engines used in our locos
  SP7 Chief Train Controller

Location: Tassie

Also when the GMs came here, again workshop staff didn't want to know about them, happy to work on EE locos


I will strongly disagree with this statement,  at no time did workshop staff not want to know about them.  When they first arrived there was more excitement that we had something new to play with.

EMD's are much easier to work on & most would rather service an EMD than an EE any day.   EMD "B" serivce 1 day,  EE "B" service 2 - 3 days!



Most workshop staff are labour hire from what various people have said over the last few years. Labour hire tends not to be the cream of any trade.


Nearly all the labour hire have now been offered contracts by Tasrail,  and yes there has been some dud labour hire workers over the last few years,  the crew there now are pretty good.   The core mechanical workers have been there since ATN took over & still have the experience.  But all the great electricians have left.

Had the workshops been privatised it may have been better off in the long run.  The workshop has always been run by demands of Operations,  hence locos go out and breakdown as they have not had the adequate maintenance done.
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
A hint of the future then, privatised workshop?
  SP7 Chief Train Controller

Location: Tassie
I can't see that happening whilst in government hands.
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
Lots of stuff won't happen while in govo's hands.
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
I have heard a whisper, take it with a grain of salt, that there will be only 2 ZBs in service, 2122 and 2123. Rest stored. The stored ZAs will be getting a I suppose overhaul and pressed into service, taking over what ZBs in service do now.

Wonder IF that will happen and also IF rebuild ZR locos revisited?
  sam6778 Junior Train Controller

Location: Rockingham, WA
Does anyone know if in the past a rebuild of the Z and ZA class into something similar to a ZR/ZP was ever considered?  If so, would there be any point in doing it nowadays?
Cheers
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
There was back in the day of rebuilding ZA/ZBs as ZRs and the 4 Zs as a cabless and engineless slug. That was just before ZB9 was in the right spot for its rebuild.

Also at the time ZR2 was entered in service, 2 more ZRs were planned, however AN Tasrail was sold to ATN, which wanted GM only locos.
  sam6778 Junior Train Controller

Location: Rockingham, WA
Would be interested to see a price comparison between rebuilding ZB/ZA's into a updated ZR compared to newbuilds or second hand locos.  

Is there anything left of the stored ZC's to rebuild them into more MKA's?

I suppose there is also the question does ETJ still have the expertise to do a rebuild into a newer model?
Cheers
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
Well it cost the then AN Tasrail about $500,000 to rebuild Z1 in 1995. Thats from a going loco, strip it all down, rewire, rebuild all electrical and mechanical bits, add in an air con unit, all new brake pipes. Then slap exterior and interior paint.
Thats Z1, now 2110, I reckon the building of ZR/ZP1 would cost over the $1 million, ZR2 the same amount i reckon. Although ZP1 was done in South Australia, ZR2 done in East Tamar.
  SP7 Chief Train Controller

Location: Tassie
Just seen some pics of Kiwi Rails new locos,  cab layout isnt to bad.  Front cab windows look a bit ugly though.

Desktop controls,  however they are wrapped around the drivers seat,  so would be better than MK/ZP controls.

Brake handles on the RHS of the driver with throttle & reverser on the LHS.
Fairly large electronic desktop display / computer in front of the driving position.  Brake gauges are off to the RHS & Speedo display are on the LHS.

From the pics it looks a reasonable cab layout.

However they look bloody ugly from the outside.
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
Cab layout like NR class cabs?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Well it cost the then AN Tasrail about $500,000 to rebuild Z1 in 1995. Thats from a going loco, strip it all down, rewire, rebuild all electrical and mechanical bits, add in an air con unit, all new brake pipes. Then slap exterior and interior paint.
Thats Z1, now 2110, I reckon the building of ZR/ZP1 would cost over the $1 million, ZR2 the same amount i reckon. Although ZP1 was done in South Australia, ZR2 done in East Tamar.
"Z1NorthernProgress2110"


You can buy a brand new 4100/PN class for about $3m and probably get it faster, use less fuel and probably do the job of two Z1/ZA/ZB's. If they are paying that much I don't see how it adds up.

Regards
Shanew
  BP4417 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Launceston, Tasmania
I suppose there is also the question does ETJ still have the expertise to do a rebuild into a newer model?


One would suggest that if any were rebuilt, East Tamar Junction would be the rebuild base with most of the work being completed by outside contractors.
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania

You can buy a brand new 4100/PN class for about $3m and probably get it faster, use less fuel and probably do the job of two Z1/ZA/ZB's. If they are paying that much I don't see how it adds up.

Regards
Shanew
"RTT_Rules"


That was in 1995 Shane, not just the other week. And $3million, is that just for one? Also its been told heaps, the 4100/PN class are over our loading gauge, other words to big for tassie.

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