Albury V/Line services after conversion?

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Just checking something I read (perhaps in another thread) that the N class locos were being adjusted so they can run at 130 kph. Is that actually possible for them to do this?

How stable would the N loco's be at that speed? How stable would the carriages be?
"Duncs"


We aren't talking the speed of light here Exclamation

15KPH over the old maximum speed is little more than brisk walking speed over 115KPH.

N Classes and cars were easily capable of 130KPH before the re-gearing process.

Mike.

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  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I think you will find that extra 15 would make a difference in situations where you previously had to stay at 115 , potentially higher average speed .
It doesn't sound like an N Set is going to have a real high Hp/Tonne ratio for a passenger train and probably not enough horsepower to pull taller gearing in style TM wise .
The higher the maximum speed the better the average speed will be in flat or slightly undulating areas . BTW what sorts of speeds did the N Sets do climbing the range out of Melbourne - up to Heathcote Jct ?

Actually thinking about it I wonder if it would have been an economic reality for VLP to have worked some sort of hire deal for a few of those  F3B engined G classes , with taller gearing surely have the legs on an N ?
Rehire the Ns to El Zorro ?

The thing is you need serious power if you want to stop and start and scoot up the hills smartly .
There's been a lot of talk lately about high speed rail , someone outside the rail industry recently pointed out that the idea of beating the bird over any real distance is hard to justify . He said more important to provide a service thats better than road on time and convenience , the logic is hard to argue with when the cost to everyone is taken into consideration .
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I noticed from a V Line access schedule sheet that some N class locos are certified to 130kph. They all have the more powerful D77/78 traction motors.

I return to my earlier question - how stable are the 130kph N sets? Can they safely do 130 kph on this line?
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
I noticed from a V Line access schedule sheet that some N class locos are certified to 130kph. They all have the more powerful D77/78 traction motors.

I return to my earlier question - how stable are the 130kph N sets? Can they safely do 130 kph on this line?
"Duncs"


Issue might centre around axle loads at that speed and whether or not ARTC are interested in Vline N class locos at a higher speed given their heavier axle load.

woodford has explained this principle in the North East Line to Standard Gauge thread.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I noticed from a V Line access schedule sheet that some N class locos are certified to 130kph. They all have the more powerful D77/78 traction motors.

I return to my earlier question - how stable are the 130kph N sets? Can they safely do 130 kph on this line?
"Duncs"


Issue might centre around axle loads at that speed and whether or not ARTC are interested in Vline N class locos at a higher speed given their heavier axle load.

woodford has explained this principle in the North East Line to Standard Gauge thread.
"574M"


Can you recall where abouts in the thread? There are 229 pages in it.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

So when is this project going to be finished so that the rest of the Victorian Country lines can be converted to Standard Gauge after all it only make's sense in a maintenance view and the costs involved running two separate networks

Salty  8)
"Salty21"


When they resolve the following issues

: running trains on unsignalled track with opposing moves

: closure and

**(rebuild) or
**(re-railing) and/or
**(resignalling) of the East line section by section

: installation of signalling on West line

: qualification of train operating staff on both lines

Say, July or October next year....
"574M"


New signalling is being done on both lines together, most of the install work is now being done between Winton (north of Benalla) and Chiltern already new signals have been erected 2 kilometers south of Glenrowan. It is almost certain the complete signalling will be done before the end of the year.
All signalling work south of Winton appears to be completed.


Woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I noticed from a V Line access schedule sheet that some N class locos are certified to 130kph. They all have the more powerful D77/78 traction motors.

I return to my earlier question - how stable are the 130kph N sets? Can they safely do 130 kph on this line?
"Duncs"


Issue might centre around axle loads at that speed and whether or not ARTC are interested in Vline N class locos at a higher speed given their heavier axle load.

woodford has explained this principle in the North East Line to Standard Gauge thread.
"574M"


Can you recall where abouts in the thread? There are 229 pages in it.
"Duncs"


I think it was around June/July last year. I did a Detailed mathematical simulation of a N class and 5 car train result was a timetable between Seymour and Wagga. I have it on another machine can repost it no problems (I hope, was still there a few months ago).
VLine management was VERY keen on 130KPH cruising speed, the simulation was calibrated at 113KPH the speed of the past Albury trains. It showed while the power of the N's was not ideal good savings in time resulted, One must remember the grades between Seymour and Albury are not severe and the distance between stations is significant. From memory it took the trains somewhere around 5 to 6 kilometers to reach 130KPH but only required 1.5 kikometers to stop from that speed using 45% braking  force. The speed south of Seymour is limited by the curve and gradient of the line.

The actual N cars themselves ran OK at 115KPH so I can see no reason why the would not be OK at 130KPH it is only a 13% increase in speed.

Woodford
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
I noticed from a V Line access schedule sheet that some N class locos are certified to 130kph. They all have the more powerful D77/78 traction motors.

I return to my earlier question - how stable are the 130kph N sets? Can they safely do 130 kph on this line?
"Duncs"


Issue might centre around axle loads at that speed and whether or not ARTC are interested in Vline N class locos at a higher speed given their heavier axle load.

woodford has explained this principle in the North East Line to Standard Gauge thread.
"574M"


Can you recall where abouts in the thread? There are 229 pages in it.
"Duncs"


I think it was around June/July last year. I did a Detailed mathematical simulation of a N class and 5 car train result was a timetable between Seymour and Wagga. I have it on another machine can repost it no problems (I hope, was still there a few months ago).
VLine management was VERY keen on 130KPH cruising speed, the simulation was calibrated at 113KPH the speed of the past Albury trains. It showed while the power of the N's was not ideal good savings in time resulted, One must remember the grades between Seymour and Albury are not severe and the distance between stations is significant. From memory it took the trains somewhere around 5 to 6 kilometers to reach 130KPH but only required 1.5 kikometers to stop from that speed using 45% braking  force. The speed south of Seymour is limited by the curve and gradient of the line.

The actual N cars themselves ran OK at 115KPH so I can see no reason why the would not be OK at 130KPH it is only a 13% increase in speed.

Woodford
"woodford"


The engines and cars have been (unofficially) tested over 120 and they behaved well  Embarassed  Sometimes at the bottom of a steep gradient, with the speed going over the limit, you ignore the brake because a severe climb is almost upon you. So you let it go. I  was very surprised to see the speed recorder touch 124 at least once as I was moving the controls into Run 8 for the climb. Under these circumstances the speed would quickly drop back below 115, however if you braked and then applied power again, you would find your train crawling up the hill at perhaps 65 KPH, when in fact you should be holding 90 KPH. It takes a long time to clear the brakes and reapply power. If you know what I mean.
Single N Class Locomotives with 6 or 7 cars don't lose much time between Wodonga and Seymour. The time is lost Melbourne to Broadmeadows to Tallarook.
A lot of calculations I see don't seem to take into consideration the momentum a steel on steel wheeled vehicle can use to the advantage of the movement.
As an example a Hitachi 6 car set running express to Spencer Street is simply powered out of Broadmeadows and the driver can shut off, and the train will be gently braked where required and roll up hills arriving at Spencer street with no further requirement for Power.
One Wodonga Driver I was with (to prove a point) rolled the Daylight behind 42220 from Tallarook to Spencer Strret. A low speed signal at Dynon Junction robbed him the chance of showing me how it rolled over the flyover to arrive at Platform 1. I never doubted it could be done, however never managed to do it myself
Cheers
Rod Young
  woodford Chief Commissioner

comtrain said,

A lot of calculations I see don't seem to take into consideration the momentum a steel on steel wheeled vehicle can use to the advantage of the movement.


Woodfords reply,
Don't worry I took care of all that and you have to drive the mathematical simulation (3000 lines of mathematics) like a real train, as I said I calibrated to the old timetable the result came within seconds of the correct time, I was VERY pleased with the result.

Woodford
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

To Woodford and Comtrain, many thanks for that info.

May I assume that south of Seymour the best a train can do is 120 - 125 kph?

If the track and signalling permitted, can trains do 160 (or more?) between Seymour and Wodonga?
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
comtrain said,

A lot of calculations I see don't seem to take into consideration the momentum a steel on steel wheeled vehicle can use to the advantage of the movement.


Woodfords reply,
Don't worry I took care of all that and you have to drive the mathematical simulation (3000 lines of mathematics) like a real train, as I said I calibrated to the old timetable the result came within seconds of the correct time, I was VERY pleased with the result.

Woodford
"woodford"


Fair enough!!  Laughing
Cheers
Rod
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
To Woodford and Comtrain, many thanks for that info.

May I assume that south of Seymour the best a train can do is 120 - 125 kph?

If the track and signalling permitted, can trains do 160 (or more?) between Seymour and Wodonga?
"Duncs"


Gee I am out of date here. But pre ARTC the XPT was allowed 130KPH on the SG and the Sprinters were allowed the same 130 on the BG.


With an Inspector on board I was instructed to try for 160 KPH when the Sprinters were introduced. Between Euroa and Violet Town we easily sustained 145 KPH and the suspension handled the bumps well. We did not go for 160, and I am not sure why, now.

I really should say as somebody who regularly drove (and fired) between Melbourne and Albury, from 1974 to 2000, that the ARTC are talking crap.

Mudholes did appear, and when reported by crews usually after heavy rain. They were fixed within 12 hours and speed restrictions were very rare. The ARTC is talking trough their corporate rrrse Wink But we all know that don't we Wink  The problem still is that the sub-roadbed was destroyed by the method of installing the sleepers.  Their is a magic machine that has sat unused for a long time in Junee. Where ever that machine is used to replace track and renew sleepers, these problems are avoided. However ARTC would need millions more to supply ballast to cover the new sleeper height.
In hind site I feel certain the ARTC will be unhappy they did not do 60% of the track right, and leave the rest till funding was available.
The Western Line was converted to SG in a few months. Trains were running in a few weeks. They simply reused the wood sleepers and replaced them a few years later. They should have done this again, when they ran out of money.
Cheers
Rod
  Calgully Deputy Commissioner

Location:
As an example a Hitachi 6 car set running express to Spencer Street is simply powered out of Broadmeadows and the driver can shut off, and the train will be gently braked where required and roll up hills arriving at Spencer street with no further requirement for Power.
"comtrain"


Wasn't this exact scenario proven for real a few years ago in a tragic episode in which a Comeng spark sitting terminated at Broadmeadows platform rolled away (MT thankfully) and rolled all the way to Spencer Street ending up crashing at speed into an N class loco at the head of a departing Vline pass in a platform at SSS.
  steven_h Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
As an example a Hitachi 6 car set running express to Spencer Street is simply powered out of Broadmeadows and the driver can shut off, and the train will be gently braked where required and roll up hills arriving at Spencer street with no further requirement for Power.
"comtrain"


Wasn't this exact scenario proven for real a few years ago in a tragic episode in which a Comeng spark sitting terminated at Broadmeadows platform rolled away (MT thankfully) and rolled all the way to Spencer Street ending up crashing at speed into an N class loco at the head of a departing Vline pass in a platform at SSS.
"Calgully"


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/feb2003/rail-f18.shtml
  woodford Chief Commissioner

To Woodford and Comtrain, many thanks for that info.

May I assume that south of Seymour the best a train can do is 120 - 125 kph?

If the track and signalling permitted, can trains do 160 (or more?) between Seymour and Wodonga?
"Duncs"


The problem south of Seymour is between Wallan and the Goulburn river with the curve radius and particularly the grades, an N class with 5 cars not having the power to climb the hills at speed. The sprinters though regularly do 125 to 130KPH between Craigeburn and Wallan and around Kilmore Eastish way.

Woodford
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

To Woodford and Comtrain, many thanks for that info.

May I assume that south of Seymour the best a train can do is 120 - 125 kph?

If the track and signalling permitted, can trains do 160 (or more?) between Seymour and Wodonga?
"Duncs"


The problem south of Seymour is between Wallan and the Goulburn river with the curve radius and particularly the grades, an N class with 5 cars not having the power to climb the hills at speed. The sprinters though regularly do 125 to 130KPH between Craigeburn and Wallan and around Kilmore Eastish way.

Woodford
"woodford"


OK so 130kph is fine there, but can a V Locity or similar do 160 kph north of Seymour?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

To Woodford and Comtrain, many thanks for that info.

May I assume that south of Seymour the best a train can do is 120 - 125 kph?

If the track and signalling permitted, can trains do 160 (or more?) between Seymour and Wodonga?
"Duncs"


The problem south of Seymour is between Wallan and the Goulburn river with the curve radius and particularly the grades, an N class with 5 cars not having the power to climb the hills at speed. The sprinters though regularly do 125 to 130KPH between Craigeburn and Wallan and around Kilmore Eastish way.

Woodford
"woodford"


OK so 130kph is fine there, but can a V Locity or similar do 160 kph north of Seymour?
"Duncs"


A VLocity would have little difficulty doing 160KPH north of Seymour, the restrcition is the speed limit on the track which is currently 130KPH maximum. I also believe the track is not the same class as the RFR lines hence the lower speed limit.

A point to keep in mind here particularly on the Albury trains is becasue they stop at some intermediate stations the savings in time between 130 and 160KPH running is not as great as one would think due to the distance the VLocity takes to reach 160KPH.

Woodford
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

[/quote]

A point to keep in mind here particularly on the Albury trains is becasue they stop at some intermediate stations the savings in time between 130 and 160KPH running is not as great as one would think due to the distance the VLocity takes to reach 160KPH.

Woodford[/quote]

I just checked the line guide on Vicsig. Here are some distances worth considering for 160kph running -

Avenal to Euroa 35km
Violet Town to Benalla 26km
Benalla to Wangaratta 39km
Chiltern to Wodonga 30km

I used the criteria that the section of track had to be a minimum of 25km long to get value from a 160 kph train, allowing for speeding up and  slowing down.

Duncs
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
A very recent review of the Melbourne to Canberra V/Line service.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jxurlLMEYo
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
XPT fist class looks much nicer than the V/Line version if you see the following video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrXUf0Q7pUM
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

As an example a Hitachi 6 car set running express to Spencer Street is simply powered out of Broadmeadows and the driver can shut off, and the train will be gently braked where required and roll up hills arriving at Spencer street with no further requirement for Power.


Wasn't this exact scenario proven for real a few years ago in a tragic episode in which a Comeng spark sitting terminated at Broadmeadows platform rolled away (MT thankfully) and rolled all the way to Spencer Street ending up crashing at speed into an N class loco at the head of a departing Vline pass in a platform at SSS.
Calgully
Not strictly correct in that ran away from Broady MT on the Up but deliberately routed into platf 2 at Sxs head on into a stationary N class at the head of a pass that had been emptied and cleared of all pax and staff . Well managed and controlled by Metrol in the circumstances .
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
As an example a Hitachi 6 car set running express to Spencer Street is simply powered out of Broadmeadows and the driver can shut off, and the train will be gently braked where required and roll up hills arriving at Spencer street with no further requirement for Power.


Wasn't this exact scenario proven for real a few years ago in a tragic episode in which a Comeng spark sitting terminated at Broadmeadows platform rolled away (MT thankfully) and rolled all the way to Spencer Street ending up crashing at speed into an N class loco at the head of a departing Vline pass in a platform at SSS.
Not strictly correct in that ran away from Broady MT on the Up but deliberately routed into platf 2 at Sxs head on into a stationary N class at the head of a pass that had been emptied and cleared of all pax and staff . Well managed and controlled by Metrol in the circumstances .
kuldalai
please re-read the article above. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/feb2003/rail-f18.shtml

4 passengers in hospital was neither controlled nor well-managed.
Not a deliberate head-on, the run-away jumped the points.

EDIT. according to wiki, not jumped the points. An attempt to re-set was too late.

"At 9.31, a Spencer Street signaller spotted the runaway and told Metrol "I've got him, I see him, smeg hell he's coming up hard", and urgently tried to force the points away from the Bacchus Marsh train, but was prevented by a safety timer on the signal box equipment."

the whole sorry saga at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Melbourne_runaway_train
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Michael McCormick has announced today North east line works have been completed.



So where is the rolling stock?





  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Still under construction and, also, waiting for (vandal proof) storage at Albury to be built

Neil

Edit

Also need to take into consideration the fact that this work has been completed far faster than originally intended, due to lockdowns closing the line, enabling work to go on uninterrupted, which means that the schedule for producing the rolling stock is compromised. Unless it is anticipated that the track work will be finished early, by anything up to 9 months, rolling stock orders can't meet timelines. Apparently the first four were under construction by early this year; where the other two are at hasn't been publicised by anyone that I'm aware of.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
The rolling stock would have been fine arriving early also although we don’t like cheap velocity cars much in Albury.

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