Chinese Locomotives for SCT Logistics

 
  SD90MAC Station Staff

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/chinese-firm-signs-australian-locomotive-order.html

The Chinese might finally break into the Australian market and end the EDI/UGL domination of Locomotive manufacture in this country.

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  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
Hmmm thanks for that interesting news item.... will be interesting to see how they hold up to our conditions.
  SD90MAC Station Staff

http://www.csrgc.com.cn/ens/cpyfw/jch/index.shtml

Could it be possible that one of these Locomotives adapted for our loading guage could grace the tracks here ????
  Z1NorthernProgress2110 Chief Commissioner

Location: Burnie, Tasmania
That would be a shot in the arm for EDI/UGL. Wonder if they will take note?

Be interesting on what technology they will have.
  Shacks Ghanzel

Location: Sir Big Lens of the Distant Upper Hunter
Looks like CSR have used EMD / EDI componants in the past.
There are parts of China that are very much like the conditions here in Australia, I don't think they will have any problems with the conditions here.
I have to say, it is a big slap in the face for the Australian railway rollingstock manufacturing indusrty. I see there is a fair bit of rollingstock made by CSR getting around Australia.
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
Looks like CSR have used EMD / EDI componants in the past.
There are parts of China that are very much like the conditions here in Australia, I don't think they will have any problems with the conditions here.
I have to say, it is a big slap in the face for the Australian railway rollingstock manufacturing indusrty. I see there is a fair bit of rollingstock made by CSR getting around Australia.
"Shacks"


How is it a slap in the face...both major australian manufacturers are flat out till at least 2013 at the moment.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Another interesting Railway Gazette report a day earlier:

CHINA: The Changzhou CSR GE Diesel Engine Co Ltd joint venture of CSR Qishuyan and GE China was formally established on September 9.

Based at the Rail Transit Industrial Park in the Changzhou Qishuyan Economic Development Zone, its main business will be the production, sales and technical support of locomotive engines and components.


So in theory CSR could build GE powered locomotives for Australia.

It also says:

It will initially assemble and overhaul EVO16 diesel engines, with capacity of 250 engines a year from March 2011

Does SCT want any 5900HP locomotives?

I guess they might be able to build 4400HP twelve cylinder engines as well, or just source them from GE.

M636C
  Shacks Ghanzel

Location: Sir Big Lens of the Distant Upper Hunter


How is it a slap in the face...both major australian manufacturers are flat out till at least 2013 at the moment.
"42101"


Is that why both EDI and UGL have put of 1/3rd of their workforce in the last 18 months ?
  Titfield Locomotive Fireman

Another interesting Railway Gazette report a day earlier:

CHINA: The Changzhou CSR GE Diesel Engine Co Ltd joint venture of CSR Qishuyan and GE China was formally established on September 9.

Based at the Rail Transit Industrial Park in the Changzhou Qishuyan Economic Development Zone, its main business will be the production, sales and technical support of locomotive engines and components.


So in theory CSR could build GE powered locomotives for Australia.
Here we go again, another Peter Clark theory session.

It also says:

It will initially assemble and overhaul EVO16 diesel engines, with capacity of 250 engines a year from March 2011
Nothing to do with SCT. I thought even a self confessed expert like you would have worked out that the EVO engine wont fit into the DIRN loading gauge outline.
Does SCT want any 5900HP locomotives?
No, nothing to do with SCT. Just another of your many theories.

I guess they might be able to build 4400HP twelve cylinder engines as well, or just source them from GE.

Maybe, Maybe, Maybe, keep guessing. Your way off the mark as usual.
Rolling Eyes

M636C
"M636C"
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

In the press releases the manufacturer of the prime mover has not been disclosed. If SCT has done due diligence, they will avoid the Chinese built 16V280ZJA, or a derivative of this engine, for which CSR Qishuyan is the designated assembler. This family of engines has been a dismal failure in locomotives, exported to Pakistan and Africa. Pakistan Railway's experience is that it has about half the lifespan of a US built engine, plus a very high maintenance requirement. http://hunzatimes.wordpress.com/2009/05/06/na-body-opposes-chinese-locomotives-purchase/
In the lower HP range CSR group companies have historically used both Cummins and Cat. CSR Ziyang is not a locomotive builder, their only contribution is the frame, and other vendors are responsible for everything else.
Cummins locomotive engine range tops out at 3500HP with the QSK78, the new Cat C175 as used by Progress Rail in their PR43C, is rated at 3500HP. Could CSR be using reconditioned prime movers out of the States? Sort of a stir-fried VL class
  tank78 Junior Train Controller

Location: Making the red dust fly in the Pilbara!
Sort of a stir-fried VL class
"jmt"


As I was reading your post jmt I was thinking Avteq and VL and there it was right at the end! By god your good!

Unfortunately though, the Avteq experience at the start was rather hit and miss because the company had no idea how 3/4 of the equipment they fitted to the loco actually worked so in effect, loco assembler, not loco builder.

Fortunately, even though the locos still have a few issues, the very good maintenance and service team at CFCLA's Australian Horsepower Service Centre were able to get them up to a pretty good reliable service level.

Which flows to my rather long winded point, whoever buys anything that is built in this way will need a very good maintainer to look after the gear. Is there any word on who maybe the maintainer for SCT-internal or external provider?
  M636C Minister for Railways

So in theory CSR could build GE powered locomotives for Australia.M636C
"M636C"



Nothing to do with SCT. I thought even a self confessed expert like you would have worked out that the EVO engine wont fit into the DIRN loading gauge outline.

"Titfield"


You don't seem to have grasped how to quote earlier posts neatly.

How much taller and wider than the FDL is the EVO engine?

Having looked at the GE drawings, it appears to me that from the mounting feet to the top of the turbocharger casing the difference between the FDL and EVO is of the order of 50mm or so. Note that this doesn't take account of the sump dimension, but if the EVO needs a deeper sump this might be recessed into the frame as is always done with EMD engines.

If you have some other dimensional figure that indicates that fitting the EVO into the DIRN outline is difficult, I'd like to know, and I would like to get a reference to your sources.

Remember that there is currently a large muffler above the FDL in UGL locomotives which is much larger than the difference in engine height. The main problem in fitting the EVO would be the air to air intercooler used on US domestic (and Rio Tinto) locomotives. These would be difficult to fit into the Chinese loading gauge also and the Chinese ES 59ACi units use air to water intercoolers, as do the reengined BHPB AC6000 units. So there is no problem there....

However, I was only suggesting that the GE engine might be used....

Vossloh have substituted the Cat C175 for the 12-710G3 in their Euro 3000 locomotive (a version of the RENFE 334) to produce a locomotive meeting European Tier 3 emission regulations.

That also would be an option....

I'd expect that SCT would want around 4000 HP in an AC traction locomotive. I doubt that they would want a Chinese prime mover, either.

CSR build their GE engined locomotives with UGL design fabricated bogies and they may be able to use these on the SCT locomotives.

The frame and hood design of the GE engined locomotives might be usable for the SCT design, since these are much  lighter than US domestic units.

Most CSR high power export units have been cab units but I doubt that SCT would want a return to this design - but I'm happy to wait and see...

M636C
  903 Chief Commissioner

Location: Perth WA
i hear they are to be MTU powered.
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

903 is saying MTU!!!

If previous post re 4000 HP are correct, the only MTU offering is the 20V 4000 R43L. That is one serious bit of kit, 20 cylinders, 1800rpm, unsure if 2 or 4 turbos http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/products/engine-program/diesel-engines-for-rail-traction/diesel-engines-for-push-pull-trainslocomotives/detail/product/412/cHash/5b715c617bf26d94119988476a67ea5b/

Would this be the first application of a high speed diesel in a dedicated main line freight loco in Australia?

If this type of high speed engine is correct, forget about re-powering with a conventional 900/1000 rpm engine down the track, as the frame will be designed for a miniature engine 3.4 meters long, weighing under 10.5 tonnes, compared with say a 16-710 at close to 18 tonnes, and over a meter longer, to say nothing of the increased cooling requirement.
  M636C Minister for Railways

The new New Zealand DL class has the MTU 20V4000R43, but that is built by the "other" Chinese company CNR at Dalien.

Avteq offered a locomotive with that engine, too, but none were built.

The nearest equivalent engines are the older design MTU 16V396 in the QR Diesel Tilt trains, but these have mechanical fuel injection rather than the common rail system on the 4000.

If these are indeed the proposed engines, it will be interesting to see how these engine work locally. They require overhaul at rather shorter intervals than EMD engines and the replacement parts aren't cheap.

M636C
  Hendo Deputy Commissioner

Sounds like another nail in the coffin of Australian railway equipment manufacturing and assembly
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Received the following press release in my Inbox this evening...

PRESS RELEASE – 22th September 2010

SCT GOES GREEN ON LOCOMOTIVES

Confirming industry speculation, SCT Logistics today confirmed that they had recently placed a locomotive order to satisfy their current and projected growth requirements. CEO, Geoff Smith, confirmed that the production of locomotives designed and developed in conjunction with China Southern Railways (CSR Ziyang Locomotive Co., Ltd.) and MTU Germany had already commenced.

Typically our company likes to progress these types of innovations in a quiet fashion, however secrets in the rail and transport industry are rare not only in Australia, however also on an international level which has proven to be the case in this instance.

Whilst we are not prepared to divulge details at this stage regarding the specifics of the locomotives that we are acquiring, it is fair to say that we’ve been through an exhaustive process in arriving at this decision over a number of years.

SCT Logistics is accustomed to breaking new ground which our customers encourage and the competitive nature of our industry demands. We currently operate the SCT Class 4,500 HP locomotives which are manufactured in Australia and whilst we have had a strong and successful relationship with our Australian supplier we have made a commercial decision to source the new locomotives from China.

“These locomotives will be the most carbon friendly in Australia by a long way”, Smith said. “This combined with the size and efficiency in which SCT operates its general freight trains will result in considerable reductions in Green House gas emissions, significantly achieving further reductions for both SCT’s carbon footprint and that of our customers.

Following on from the success achieved with our current locomotives, we have again opted for AC traction technology. This technology is suitable for use in both general freight rail operations or for bulk rail transport in the mining industry. We expect that these locomotives will achieve a tier 3 performance rating which is significantly superior to all other locomotives operating in Australia today.

Regards,
Geoff Smith
Chief Executive Officer - SCT Logistics
  M636C Minister for Railways

"22th September....?"   not even 22nd...?

No secrets...? Did SCT not expect CSR to announce the order?

Certainly the MTU engine should meet Tier 3..
The Caterpillar C175 is said to meet those regulations too
The GE EVO is also expected to meet those requirements when required...


M636C
  henkluf Station Master

The engines on these units will be MTUs
  M636C Minister for Railways

The engines on these units will be MTUs
"henkluf"


I was just indicating that SCT had a choice (they didn't have to use the MTU) if they wanted to meet those regulations which in fact are not yet mandatory in Australia.

They didn't have to get a locomotive built in China to meet those standards either...

I wasn't commenting on what type of engine would be used.

M636C
  henkluf Station Master

To M636C.
You are right. They did not have to get MTU's. There are other engines around that comply with cat3.
And they did not have to get the units from China either.
But then they have not told us everything either have they?
The fact was they wanted the six units yesterday and they wanted 4000hp plus and they wanted the units cheap. The cat3 so-called 'green initiative' is nothing new either.
Interesting time, especially when operators duck and weave in order to avoid direct media enquiries.
Cheers.
  wongm GEEWONG

Location: Geelong, Victoria
I was just indicating that SCT had a choice (they didn't have to use the MTU) if they wanted to meet those regulations which in fact are not yet mandatory in Australia.

They didn't have to get a locomotive built in China to meet those standards either...
"M636C"

Putting on my conspiracy theorist hat: SCT is getting the locos cheap because the Chinese want to crack the western market?
  3981 Assistant Commissioner

Sounds like another nail in the coffin of Australian railway equipment manufacturing and assembly
"Hendo"


The wait time for a locally built loco is over a year from both builders, so they have really put them selves in a place that makes it hard for them to be competitive.

In saying that though, with wait times of over a year they certainly aren't struggling for work. The local loco builders are doing more than ok at the moment.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
with wait times of over a year they certainly aren't struggling for work. The local loco builders are doing more than ok at the moment.
"3981"

It has been reported however that they have put off employees. Perhaps the wait times could be shortened by re-employing?
  bagus70 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wanting to revisit Australia again.
I am really surprised about this.

I think it is totally ridiculous if any Australian company willing to buy a Chinese loco.

I've heard so many times about the poor reliability of Chinese locomotives. In fact in China itself, most of the leading mainline locomotives are either GE or GM manufactured in China (analogous of UGR/EDI in Australia).

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