3801 Boiler Update

 
  whitbomb07 Junior Train Controller

Location: Newcastle/Valley Heights
Go to Google Translator, copy the germany to it and hey presto an english translation that you will get the gist of.
"BP4417"


G'day BP

As I mentioned in the paragraph under the link, I tried both Google and Babelfish to try to translate.

Thanks anyway.

Regards

Daniel

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  steamfreak Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wodonga, VIC
Interesting discussion on the German site. One guy mentioned that this is the second boiler (i.e. Tornado’s as well) to be returned to Meiningen for warranty work.  

Another guy wrote back that it is not warranty work, and “ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, daß ein Kunde einen unrunden Kessel mit schiefer Rauchkammer und mangelhaften Schweißnähten bestellt hat” – roughly – “I can’t believe that a customer would order a boiler that is not round, and with a crooked smokebox and faulty welds”

Fundamental issue resolution rather than warranty work!
  allambee Chief Train Controller

Another guy wrote back that it is not warranty work, and “ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, daß ein Kunde einen unrunden Kessel mit schiefer Rauchkammer und mangelhaften Schweißnähten bestellt hat” – roughly – “I can’t believe that a customer would order a boiler that is not round, and with a crooked smokebox and faulty welds”

Fundamental issue resolution rather than warranty work!
"Steamfreak"


The fundamental issue is appalling project execution by Railcorp, despite the engagement of a engineering consultancy who sent people to Germany to oversee fabrication.

http://www.halcrow.com/Our-projects/Project-details/Steam-Heritage-Australia/

Common logic would assume the boiler would have been thoroughly inspected by a third party inspection service for defects before it was shipped to Australia.
  BP4417 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Launceston, Tasmania
It really points to very poor or lack of a control process at all levels.
For example if the boiler design had come back to Australia for design verification maybe it should have been reviewed or compared to AS 1228 - 2006 Pressure equipment - Boilers, basically the construction of welded boilers. AS 1228 also refers to AS CB1, Part III - 1957 SAA Boiler Code Part III    Locomotive-Boilers-for-Rail Purposes.
Also AS 3920.1 - 1993 Assurance of product quality Part 1: Pressure equipment manufacture .
Also AS 4456 - 1997 Pressure equipment - Manufacture. and AS 4037 - 1999 Pressure equipment - Examination and testing.
Maybe the plans should also have been given to persons competent with practical knowledge of locomotive boiler maintenace and repair for their comment.
  a6et Minister for Railways

It really points to very poor or lack of a control process at all levels.
For example if the boiler design had come back to Australia for design verification maybe it should have been reviewed or compared to AS 1228 - 2006 Pressure equipment - Boilers, basically the construction of welded boilers. AS 1228 also refers to AS CB1, Part III - 1957 SAA Boiler Code Part III    Locomotive-Boilers-for-Rail Purposes.
Also AS 3920.1 - 1993 Assurance of product quality Part 1: Pressure equipment manufacture .
Also AS 4456 - 1997 Pressure equipment - Manufacture. and AS 4037 - 1999 Pressure equipment - Examination and testing.
Maybe the plans should also have been given to persons competent with practical knowledge of locomotive boiler maintenace and repair for their comment.
"BP4417"


& this highlights aspects of what I have been saying all along.

I guess when thinking of the fact its only a boiler, & even if as Tezza says the best German engineers were killed during WW2 or others whisked off to Russia & the U.S, it doesn't say much for those who survived the war.

Anyway, jokes aside & that sorry time in history, Germany did not dieselise nor go helter sketer into electrification right after the war, but they did build a heck of a lot of good locomotives, so they should have known what they were doing.

Yet we have two examples now of poor boiler standards yet they boost their own ego's with self appraisal & shoring up their own advertising & expertice, so if they are that good, who the hecks to blame for the two debacles, & lets not relate to how good they are in building their own loco's or boilers for local locomotives like the Harz mountain ones, but how good are they in building boilers for other countries locomotives, which I think is a huge part of the problem.

They admitted to the boiler being not of a type they had expreienced in the past, AFTER they got the contract, so it seems they were not very conversant with what they were tendering for.

Which really brings it back to those here in NSW who were responsible for the boiler being contracted, to a known company with unknown credentials in foriegn orders, of seperate boilers.  Who really shows the expertise in dealing with a project such as this, & should they have the responsibility for the future of not just 3801 but of the overall NSW rail heritage fleet?

I guess, the longevity of this project may end up being in line with the time it took Clyde to build it in the first place, when there was a war going on.
  BP4417 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Launceston, Tasmania
Foreign built boilers are nothing new in Australia.
  gtrtorana Train Controller

Location: VIC, former home of the best loco's in OZ
I guess, the longevity of this project may end up being in line with the time it took Clyde to build it in the first place, when there was a war going on.

Payback for loosing it?
  Squidno1 Locomotive Fireman

Location: NR8
      Its a steam locomotive boiler, not rocket science...... The best Germans were killed during the war, any good ones left went to Nasa ...... An Engineering Company at Gouburn tendered for the contract also, around 2 hours driving time from Sydney...
"tezza"


Would that have been Ainsworth?
  tezza Chief Commissioner

      Its a steam locomotive boiler, not rocket science...... The best Germans were killed during the war, any good ones left went to Nasa ...... An Engineering Company at Gouburn tendered for the contract also, around 2 hours driving time from Sydney...
"tezza"


Would that have been Ainsworth?
"Squidno1"


Yeah , they were the ones that tendered for the project
  WSRR Station Staff

Location: Sydney
3801 Limited never got beyond a very informal tender process due to the lease issue. They approached RailCorp in 2005 about extending the companies lease on 3801 with the need for a new boiler very much in mind.

If 3801 Limited were going to pay for a whole-new boiler at no expense to the locomotive ultimate owners, the NSW Goverment, the lease would have needed to be extented for the company to recuperate the costs of such a large one-off outlay, similar to that outlayed for 3801's new tyres in late 2005.

The company favoured awarding such a tender to a local supplier, but at the end of the day had a formal tender process gone ahead this my not have been the case.

If the lease issue hadn't been hijacked by the then NSW Labor government for its own dirty ends (closing down the whole of the Eveleigh precenct for non-rail related developement) no doubt the wishes of the RTM for 3801 to return to their care would have been ignored and the lease extended. No government ever wants to pay for something the private sector is more than willing to pay for them.

Had this happened 3801 Limited planned to start construction on the new boiler as early as 2007 with the view of having her back on the road sometime in 2008, with 3830 (another project 3801 Limited pored a huge amount of its own capital into) and 3112 to haul tours during this rebuild period.

And here we are now, late 2011, and 3801 is still sitting on bricks (so to speak). Not only is her rebuild set to be completed over five years later than it would have been if she had stayed at Eveleigh, but it has cost us, the tax payers of NSW, many hundreds of thousands of dollars more than it should have - $0
"JoeT"
  tezza Chief Commissioner

3801 Limited never got beyond a very informal tender process due to the lease issue. They approached RailCorp in 2005 about extending the companies lease on 3801 with the need for a new boiler very much in mind.

If 3801 Limited were going to pay for a whole-new boiler at no expense to the locomotive ultimate owners, the NSW Goverment, the lease would have needed to be extented for the company to recuperate the costs of such a large one-off outlay, similar to that outlayed for 3801's new tyres in late 2005.

The company favoured awarding such a tender to a local supplier, but at the end of the day had a formal tender process gone ahead this my not have been the case.

If the lease issue hadn't been hijacked by the then NSW Labor government for its own dirty ends (closing down the whole of the Eveleigh precenct for non-rail related developement) no doubt the wishes of the RTM for 3801 to return to their care would have been ignored and the lease extended. No government ever wants to pay for something the private sector is more than willing to pay for them.

Had this happened 3801 Limited planned to start construction on the new boiler as early as 2007 with the view of having her back on the road sometime in 2008, with 3830 (another project 3801 Limited pored a huge amount of its own capital into) and 3112 to haul tours during this rebuild period.

And here we are now, late 2011, and 3801 is still sitting on bricks (so to speak). Not only is her rebuild set to be completed over five years later than it would have been if she had stayed at Eveleigh, but it has cost us, the tax payers of NSW, many hundreds of thousands of dollars more than it should have - $0
"JoeT"
"WSRR"
 

3801ltd recieved a fully overhauled locomotive in 1986 on a generous 20 year lease from the NSWRTM.  
The locomotive should have been returned fully overhauled at the expiration of that 20 year lease, not it would have been if you gave us another 5 years
  4206 Chief Commissioner

Location: Dorrigo yard
I thought that 3830 was restored and maintained by the Powerhouse Museum
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
IIRC 3801 Ltd. provided space at Everleigh for the restoration of 3830. Given the facilties it made a lot of sense.  Smile
  4206 Chief Commissioner

Location: Dorrigo yard
Thanks for that, I was more referring to the comment ,

.......with 3830 (another project 3801 Limited pored a huge amount of its own capital into)
  Aussielgb Locomotive Fireman

Location: Gulmarrad Station
Hi All
A bit of broad history re 3801 and its ownership.

The restoration of 3801 was spearheaded by Mr. David Hill then Chief Executive Officer of the State Rail Authority. David Hill put together a team consisting of representatives of State Rail, ARHS (NSW), NSWRTM, and the MAAS to assess 3801. At an onsite meeting of the group at the New South Wales Rail Transport Museum, Thirlmere to inspect locomotive 3801 to gauge the scope of the work required, serious boiler faults were found, particularly with the inner firebox, with a new one required. The boiler would be the biggest stumbling block to the restoration and would decide if the project could continue.  Given the amount of work identified by this inspection, it also highlighted that a dedicated and focused group would be required to make this restoration possible.
The Department Industrial Relation had set up a Training Centre in Newcastle because of the down turn in industry and the need to provide a centre to try and complete the Indentures of apprentices now looking at losing their employment. A project was needed for these young people to work on and State Rail needed someone to restore 3801 to operation and service.
Locomotive 3801was towed to Newcastle’s State Dockyard where the Hunter Valley Training Company had set up a workshop and disassembly of the locomotive commenced. Early in the restoration 2 committees were set, a Restoration Committee and a Technical Committee. The Restoration Committee would be responsible for Maintaining liaison with SRA, setting policy for the restoration (including substantial donations) and eventual operation of the locomotive, this Committee would basically become the Company 3801 LTD. From the onset 3801 had to cost its owners, State Rail nothing and its operation had to be self funding.
In August 1986 the boiler for 3801 was hydrostatically tested and after an initial failure the second test was successful with the boiler reaching the full pressure of 245PSI using hot water from 5910. With the restoration, first dubbed ‘Mission Impossible now almost at a point where it was going to succeed a lease was granted by the SRA to 3801 Ltd for a period of 20 years, this being the life expectancy of the boiler. This lease was so that if anything happened the SRA did not lose ownership of the locomotive. In November 1986, 3801 successfully completed 2 days of trials before being completed, and officially handed over. About the same time 3801 Ltd advertised for a Maintenance Manager to maintain 3801. The locomotive returned to Sydney and for a 6 month period, for crew training, the locomotive was sent to Thirlmere. In July 1987 3801 left Thirlmere for its new home, this would be the Large Erecting Shop at Eveleigh. Operations of 3801 locomotive and company then commenced from this location.
While working at the RTM in the late 90’s various exhibits were being assessed and reports written which became SRA’s Moveable Heritage blueprint. The SRA now needed to be responsible for its Heritage assets. At the same time the SRA was being broken up and Railcorp became the new corporate name with the Office of Rail Heritage being established as the Heritage arm.
When the lease on 3801 expired, as per the conditions, 3801 was returned to its owner the SRA, now RailCorp or the ORH. The locomotive was again housed at Thirlmere while the ORH assessed the new restoration of the locomotive. As has been seen the locomotive was again moved to Chullora for this restoration by the ORH and as per the original report the locomotive should be made available again to the people of NSW enjoy through tour operations
One note of interest: When the 80’s restoration was being considered the DIR Apprentice Directorate wanted the whole locomotive or nothing. They were offered initially the tender but that was not acceptable, it was all or nothing. They were eventually given the full restoration and the Staff, and especially the Apprentices took ownership, took pride in their work and did a magnificent restoration which saw 3801 complete its full projected life in preservation service. A restoration experience I was fortunate enough to witness and record on film.
What started as ‘Mission Impossible’ was mission completed over 20 years later.          

Trgards
Greg
  BM3801 Lobster

Location: Go Hard or Go Home!
News of the boiler problems have finally hit the papers. Not much really to read in it, as everything written we already basically knew, but it lets the non-gunzel general public know about it.  

Id post a link but im on my phone and it wont let me. Ill post a link when i get home unless someone else does before me  8)
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Links below:

http://blogs.abc.net.au/nsw/2011/10/3801-revamp-derailed.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/driven-loco-by-a-spare-part-bungle/story-e6freuzi-1226176713643

"THERE are few things more exasperating than buying a spare part for something, bringing it home and finding it doesn't fit.

Imagine the frustration when that part took a year to make, had to be shipped from the other side of the world, weighed 30 tonnes and cost $1.5 million of NSW taxpayers' money.

This is the embarrassing predicament the Office of Rail Heritage found itself in with the refurbishment of Australia's most famous steam locomotive, the 3801.

The giant green locomotive is in pieces in Chullora. And Germany.

Built in 1943, 3801 was the first of 30 Pacific-class steam locomotives, a marvel of Australian engineering created during one of the nation's darkest moments.

In the 1980s, 3801 was saved from the scrapyard and fully restored to commemorate Australia's bicentennial in 1988. It travelled on lines around the nation, often double-heading with the famous Flying Scotsman on its Australian tour.

In 2008 the locomotive was placed under the custodianship of the Rail Transport Museum in Thirlmere and was stripped down at the Railway workshops in Chullora for full refurbishment.

Last October, the new German-made boiler and firebox arrived at the railway workshops in Chullora to be lowered on to the Australian-refurbished rolling chassis. It was only then engineers realised it didn't fit.

In April, representatives from the German engineering firm Dampflokwerk Meiningen, which built the boiler, arrived in Sydney for discussions as to what to do with the great lump of unusable steel.

Since it was under warranty it will be returned to the place of purchase.

Due back on the rails last year, 3801 probably won't run until late next year."
  BM3801 Lobster

Location: Go Hard or Go Home!
thanks for that mate  8)
  cooky2304 Train Controller

Location: Newcastle
Very interesting.

Can't wait to hear that chime whistle blow and hear the steam hissing out.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
The whole boiler saga is a crying shame. Even I, as a Mexican, admire the 38 greatly. It is exceptionally well designed for the job it was intended for.
It's visits to Victoria have been great. I was priviledged to have a cab ride on 3801, courtesy of the late Tony Gogarty, and it is a great machine.

I am very surprised that the boiler was allowed to get to the stage it did without critical examination at the works. This has been a costly lesson, and very disappointing.
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
The whole boiler saga is a crying shame. Even I, as a Mexican, admire the 38 greatly. It is exceptionally well designed for the job it was intended for.
It's visits to Victoria have been great. I was priviledged to have a cab ride on 3801, courtesy of the late Tony Gogarty, and it is a great machine.

I am very surprised that the boiler was allowed to get to the stage it did without critical examination at the works. This has been a costly lesson, and very disappointing.
"Valvegear"


Mate 3810 LTD had the $$$ set aside for a new boiler and had even spoken with QR,s Ipswich rail museum about them building a new one....then 01ltd got shafted by the RTM and NSW gumbyment and the rest is history.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
You said it all mate; the technical term is "b*ggered around by experts."
  TE2815 Minister for Railways

Location: Mission control Minto or Thirlmere
The media still persists in this naming error:
............. Australia's most famous steam locomotive, the 3801.
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
The media still persists in this naming error:
............. Australia's most famous steam locomotive, the 3801.
"TE2815"


I'm fairly certain general Joe Public doesn't care about 'the 3801' only a select few foamers... Media get things wrong all the time, deal with it.
  TE2815 Minister for Railways

Location: Mission control Minto or Thirlmere
The media still persists in this naming error:
............. Australia's most famous steam locomotive, the 3801.
"TE2815"


I'm fairly certain general Joe Public doesn't care about 'the 3801' only a select few foamers... Media get things wrong all the time, deal with it.
"LowndesJ515"
Doesn't bother me, just amuses me they can't research to get things right whether it be 3801 or any other story the art of researching is long gone Exclamation

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