3801 Boiler Update

 
  steamfreak Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wodonga, VIC
Just been reading this interesting post on the 3801 page regarding the boiler issues:
http://www.heritageexpress.com.au/pages/legendsofsteam/3801/default.htm

What a nightmare...

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  whitbomb07 Junior Train Controller

Location: Newcastle/Valley Heights
Oh dear.

At least we now have some info, this was starting to get very Rothbury R766-esque! I've emailed HE (and received read receipts so I know they got it and was read) and had no response.

It's unfortunate that it has taken so long to approach some sort of a resolution. Contracts like this should normally mean a rather expensive payout from the producer for failure to provide a suitable product and also not within the appropriate timeframe. The longer it drags on normally would mean heavier and heavier penalties to DB and thus encourage them to rectify the issue as quickly as possible.

Does anyone know the status of the second boiler? Could it end up being the first one to be used?

The only sweetner to this rather bitter pill is the extra work that can be done, and I congratulate the ORH for their willingness to allow this rather then tell everyone to down tools and wait. It's just a pity DB doesn't appear to be made to pay for it, instead more taxpayers money has to be used. Hopefully this isn't the case.

It'll be interesting to see if this shows up in the mainstream media and what if anything will happen between the Libs and Labour!

Regards

Daniel
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
Bit of a nightmare, bad enough it didn't meet the local boiler code, then it didn't fit.  Embarassed

Glad they have decided to do some more work on items such as the streamline casing to cover the setback. Second times a charm.  8)
  hunslet1915 Chief Train Controller

Does anyone know the status of the second boiler? Could it end up being the first one to be used?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was only an OPTION for the construction of a second boiler in the original tender which was not taken up by RailCorp.
  4426 Chief Commissioner

Location: BUSY GOING AROUND IN CIRCLES
Well its great to see the NSWRTM staff involved can tackle other issues while waiting on the 2nd boiler.

Kudo's also to HE for not keeping the taxpayer in the dark.
  Albert Chief Commissioner

Good to see some resolution between parties so the project can move ahead.

With any luck 3801 will be ready for the 2013 steam season.
  BP4417 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Launceston, Tasmania
Appears to be a major stuff up of with contract documentation.
The admission about the problems with the boiler vindicates all those people who said there were major defects but were vilified by some members of this forum which resulted in the discussion becoming a locked thread.
  jumboman44211 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Depot No. 20
Appears to be a major stuff up of with contract documentation.
The admission about the problems with the boiler vindicates all those people who said there were major defects but were vilified by some members of this forum which resulted in the discussion becoming a locked thread.
"BP4417"




People in the "know"......knew.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Whats amazing about this is that its a repeat of boiler problems that one of the new boilers for one of the British Loco's had not that long ago.

The sorrow is that the modern German abilities seems to be slipping, how else could they or whoever was responsible could have got this so wrong, can we wonder about experts?

I cannot understand why the work was not seriously considered to be done in China, as they were still building new Steamin the late 1990's in fact their last new steam loco was built & released in October 1999. Surely by thinking of China, & their expertise it would have cost less & both the local & Chinese engineers & builders are only around 10 hours flying time away from Sydney, thus allowing a better liason to have taken place.

Also makes one wonder why the Ipswich bid was rejected.
  watersupply Station Staff

Also makes one wonder why the Ipswich bid was rejected.
"a6et"


Because the ORH gals knew best....... Laughing
  a6et Minister for Railways

Also makes one wonder why the Ipswich bid was rejected.
"a6et"


Because the ORH gals knew best....... Laughing
"watersupply"


Was one the apprentice who was qualified to take water on 01 some time back?
  watersupply Station Staff

Also makes one wonder why the Ipswich bid was rejected.
"a6et"


Because the ORH gals knew best....... Laughing
"watersupply"


Was one the apprentice who was qualified to take water on 01 some time back?
"a6et"


I think the one you refer to was sent over for a holiday to write a report on how good the Germans were to help justify the decision made in town.

Lets just be thankful they didnt take up the option on 2 of these tin cans. The local tenderers must be seething, and rightly so!
  a6et Minister for Railways

Also makes one wonder why the Ipswich bid was rejected.
"a6et"


Because the ORH gals knew best....... Laughing
"watersupply"


Was one the apprentice who was qualified to take water on 01 some time back?
"a6et"


I think the one you refer to was sent over for a holiday to write a report on how good the Germans were to help justify the decision made in town.

Lets just be thankful they didnt take up the option on 2 of these tin cans. The local tenderers must be seething, and rightly so!
"watersupply"


The sorrow in all of this is that the Germans are reknowned for they abilities, & when it comes to welded boilers that can be shown by how good their loco's were, hard to imagine the devastation caused to their railways during WW2 by allied attacks yet, the loco's including boilers were often able to be repaired.

In this case with 3801, I remember reading whether it was after they won the tender & the boiler was started, that the specs were completely new to them, & they had never built anything like it before, or words to that affect.  Which simply told me back then, that there was likely to be problems.

The question then really is how much experience do they have in building steam locomotive boilers, as against perhaps stationary types.

As the world moves away from the use of steam, even allowing for the few countries still using them in regular service, they move away from the building of components & those who were working on them gradually fade away & their experince is lost.  It does not take that long for those skills to be lost or at least lessened.

Most areas now rely on volounteers to repair & restore loco's, & many of those with skills are getting older, & there is a great need to try & source from them their skills.  

When I mention China, I think many would immediately turn off, but here is a country that still has the skills available, & means to construct steam locomotives, but the question is for how long.  In the not so long ago steam days, their workers of all grades had pride in their work, & a huge proportion were sad to see them go, even some crews, even though they worked under terrible conditions (as did we in regular steam days), thus I am sure they would look to the challenge in a different way than others.

While this is only a personal opinion I do think that there has been a real oppurtunity lost by not taking up the option of China or even building the boiler at Ipswich.
  hunslet1915 Chief Train Controller

[While this is only a personal opinion I do think that there has been a real oppurtunity lost by not taking up the option of China or even building the boiler at Ipswich.[/quote]
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While RailCorp's tendering process is confidential, I was of the general understanding that the price from Ipswich would have been much higher and the time required to construct the boiler would also have been considerably longer.   (Perhaps this dates back to the 3801 Limited inquiries prior to 2008.)

I had been given to understand, but I may well be incorrect, that it was to Ipswich Workshops that 3801 Limited had looked for the construction of a replacement boiler before the loco was returned to the RTM.   Ipswich has been constructing new boilers for the QR heritage steam fleet

It would be most interesting to undertake a Freedom of Information request into the current tender, but I suspect that this could not be done at present because of the problems currently being experenced, and so everything until final resolution would be "commercial in confidence".
  JoeT Assistant Commissioner

3801 Limited never got beyond a very informal tender process due to the lease issue. They approached RailCorp in 2005 about extending the companies lease on 3801 with the need for a new boiler very much in mind.

If 3801 Limited were going to pay for a whole-new boiler at no expense to the locomotive ultimate owners, the NSW Goverment, the lease would have needed to be extented for the company to recuperate the costs of such a large one-off outlay, similar to that outlayed for 3801's new tyres in late 2005.

The company favoured awarding such a tender to a local supplier, but at the end of the day had a formal tender process gone ahead this my not have been the case.

If the lease issue hadn't been hijacked by the then NSW Labor government for its own dirty ends (closing down the whole of the Eveleigh precenct for non-rail related developement) no doubt the wishes of the RTM for 3801 to return to their care would have been ignored and the lease extended. No government ever wants to pay for something the private sector is more than willing to pay for them.

Had this happened 3801 Limited planned to start construction on the new boiler as early as 2007 with the view of having her back on the road sometime in 2008, with 3830 (another project 3801 Limited pored a huge amount of its own capital into) and 3112 to haul tours during this rebuild period.

And here we are now, late 2011, and 3801 is still sitting on bricks (so to speak). Not only is her rebuild set to be completed over five years later than it would have been if she had stayed at Eveleigh, but it has cost us, the tax payers of NSW, many hundreds of thousands of dollars more than it should have - $0
  allambee Chief Train Controller

While RailCorp's tendering process is confidential,
"hunslet"

It's also meant to be a competitive tendering process.
I heard the Germans submitted their tender late, AFTER the tender closing date.
If that's the case, they ran a "dummy tendering process" with the true intent to award the contract to the Germans,  at the very least Railcorp should be paying out the unsuccessful bidders tendering costs.

and so everything until final resolution would be "commercial in confidence".

Why would this tender selection process be "commercial in confidence",  this would only apply to a schedule of rates or on going contract. Not a fixed price, lump sum tender.
  steamfreak Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wodonga, VIC
Interesting that sexism is a contributing cause to 3801's boiler problems...

Tendering processes aside, DB Meiningen should have been just as capable of making a decent boiler as Ipswich or China.  They have been producing all-welded steel boilers for large DB (and other) locos as well as smaller locos - the Harz Railways for example - up to the current day.  Not sure what China's new boiler manufacturing capabilities are now?
  a6et Minister for Railways

Interesting that sexism is a contributing cause to 3801's boiler problems...

Tendering processes aside, DB Meiningen should have been just as capable of making a decent boiler as Ipswich or China.  They have been producing all-welded steel boilers for large DB (and other) locos as well as smaller locos - the Harz Railways for example - up to the current day.  Not sure what China's new boiler manufacturing capabilities are now?
"steamfreak"


I don't disagree, yet there was a problem with the British boiler built for Tornado, which also had to be sent back, at least that is my understanding of the issue.

The thing is that, the company would be well aware of the standards for locomotives in their own country especially if they have been involved with the previous building of them. The other aspect is that they are on the spot for service & other repairs, even the boiler for Tornado is not a huge task in getting it back to Germany either, or, at least when compared to the distance between Australia & Germany.

IIRC there is also a boiler manufacturer in Sydney who did built one for 3265, but its a smaller type.  

I don't know the current situation in China as many of the factories have closed, although Tangshan was still advertising new loco construction, also one of the now closed factories overhauled 3xQJ class for use in the U.S & had to conform to the US railway & government codes which are fairly tight.  China is perhaps a cheaper option & also closer for problem resolution.

The one thing that is happening in China at the moment, & there are some conflicting reports on it, & perhaps because its in the international arena, is that there is one CNR district, that is seeking to add to a fleet of steam locomotives they already have. They are building in a location a place to at least provide cosmetic restoration of the loco's but for what purpose is unknown.

Certainly Ipswich is the closest, & along with the on in Sydney, may have been better options, even allowing for the price, as they are quite close should a need arise & it also provides a skills training mechanism for the future, something that is being lost, & there will be a need for younger people to work on these loco's as an ongoing work into the future, so the local situation is the best option for future proofing.

The one thing that I do not understand is how the German company got the boiler so wrong, & that may never be disclosed, if it was their fault then they should bear the brunt of all costs, if there are others who are also at fault, then they also should be cost bearers as well.
  steamfreak Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wodonga, VIC
We may never know a lot of things about it...  You are right - Tornado's boiler issues do raise some questions.  

I'm all for the Australian manufacture - after all, aren't we being encouraged to buy Australian?  The NSW government seems to be setting a poor example in this case!  The proposed manufacture (in Aus) of the boiler may have originally taken longer, but with the benefit of hindsight may have ended up quicker and cheaper?

But the die has been cast - I shall watch with interest what develops!
  gtrtorana Train Controller

Location: VIC, former home of the best loco's in OZ
Back on the topic

Am I right when I say that the boiler from 3801 really hasn't even been proven yet and it could very well have the same issues that the boiler from Tornado has had so even after the boiler comes back from Germany, it could still be plagued with issues once the loco is running back on the track. This is more of a question than a statement.
  michaelgreenhill Administrator That's Numberwang!

Location: Melbourne
Back on topic. Now.
  tezza Chief Commissioner

Whats amazing about this is that its a repeat of boiler problems that one of the new boilers for one of the British Loco's had not that long ago.

The sorrow is that the modern German abilities seems to be slipping, how else could they or whoever was responsible could have got this so wrong, can we wonder about experts?

I cannot understand why the work was not seriously considered to be done in China, as they were still building new Steamin the late 1990's in fact their last new steam loco was built & released in October 1999. Surely by thinking of China, & their expertise it would have cost less & both the local & Chinese engineers & builders are only around 10 hours flying time away from Sydney, thus allowing a better liason to have taken place.

Also makes one wonder why the Ipswich bid was rejected.
"a6et"
        Its a steam locomotive boiler, not rocket science...... The best Germans were killed during the war, any good ones left went to Nasa ...... An Engineering Company at Gouburn tendered for the contract also, around 2 hours driving time from Sydney...
  raymond Deputy Commissioner

Location: Gladstone, Queensland
Link for 3801 boiler,

http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?108,5510169


    Raymond
  whitbomb07 Junior Train Controller

Location: Newcastle/Valley Heights
I didn't have much luck either with translating the forum link posted just above.

Speaking of translating. It's quite interesting that the ONLY page on the DB website that doesn't offer a translation into English, is the page about 3801............

http://www.dampflokwerk.de/berichte.htm

Every other page on the website has a translation option (the flags in the top right corner) sounds rather convenient doesn't it? I've tried Google and Babel fish to translate but it's still rather poor. One interesting part that I did get from the translation is that it still states trial runs are to commence in April 2011.............

Two points that I did pick up on the DB homepage that does have a English translation are the following:

In recent years, our company has developed into a centre of competence for historical rail vehicles.


and

Additionally, another “Plus” on our part which might be in your interest: We are mobile and therefore on-site at short notice.


Doing some maths from the 3801 report leads to the following points.

It took approx a month and a half (lat Nov to Mid Jan) before "Technical discussion" began with DB WRT the faults. I don't deny that the in depth investigation that occurred in Dec had to occur, but DB should have been contacted immediately and advised of the situation and what will be done.
It took nearly 2 months (Mid Jan to early Mar) of "Technical discussions and correspondance' for DB to admit that their work was not satisfactory.
It took another month and a half (mid March to end of April by which time the loco should have commenced trials as quoted by DB) for a delegation to visit Australia to see the faults first hand (didn't they believe what they were told?) I wouldn't really call 6weeks 'short notice' as quoted by DB.
It then took another 2 and a half months (late April to Mid July) of 'Resolution process' to come up with the idea to send the boiler back to fix the faults.
Another month (Mid July to now) and the boiler is expected to leave sometime this month (may have already I don't know)
DB has said a 20week (ie 5months) programme exclusive of shipping will be needed to rectify the faults, but then goes onto say we won't get the boiler back until mid 2012 which could theoretically = anywhere between 8-12months from now. Somehow I don't think it takes 3-7months to ship something to and back from Germany!  

It will be interesting to see what DB PR will be like when 3801 finally starts moving under it's own steam............

Regards

Daniel
  BP4417 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Launceston, Tasmania
Go to Google Translator, copy the germany to it and hey presto an english translation that you will get the gist of.

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