The current thinking remains that they will be allocated to Townsville to be close to UGL. Added to that the PH class allocation appears to be in line with PNQ and PN intermodal numbering, whereas all PN Bulk Division locos in Queensland have retained the ex-NSW four digit numbering system. Time will tell, but at the moment the numbering for the PHs does not appear to have been thought through for use in Queensland.

At the Heavy Haul Conference at Mackay last August, the PN speaker made a point of indicating that PN had been reorganised eliminating the internal divisions between intermodal and bulk operations. I know that that is what they say at such events, but there have been significant indications that such a change has happened on the standard gauge. For example, intermodal 81 class lacked the large side numbers. Currently 81s with large numbers are appearing on intermodal and steel trains (and on the Ghan). Equally, 82 class are appearing behind NRs on intermodal and steel trains.

If the difference has been eliminated betweem intermodal and bulk, PN could be happy with either classification system. I would be surprised if the PH class, which are significantly more powerful than the 83 class were not used in coal traffic. They could be maintained in Townsville and still operate in Central Queensland. It isn't that far to Abbott Point.

I am disappointed that they didn't get a numerical designation. I thought 89 or 91 were likely, since these are nearly as powerful as a 90 class.

M636C

What is the difference in number between the four digit system and a letter/digit system?  What is the impact in the operating environment?

The issue is that the PHs have the same numbers as the PNs. DTC authorities  (similar to train orders or track warrants, but with added computer interlocked safety overlays) only recognise loco numbers, not letters, so on a DTC controlled section of track in Queensland, PH001 is the same as PN001. Aside from the physical dangers and confusion of two locomotives with the same number meeting or moving along the same section of track, DTC computers would also recognize the "error" and prevent the second loco with the same number entering that section of track, which could cause all sorts of problems for say PH001 trying to leave Cairns when PN001 is still five hours south and heading to Cairns. A simple solution would be to renumber the PHs as 101-103 or 021-023, just not 001-003.

The issue is that the PHs have the same numbers as the PNs. DTC authorities  (similar to train orders or track warrants, but with added computer interlocked safety overlays) only recognise loco numbers, not letters, so on a DTC controlled section of track in Queensland, PH001 is the same as PN001. Aside from the physical dangers and confusion of two locomotives with the same number meeting or moving along the same section of track, DTC computers would also recognize the "error" and prevent the second loco with the same number entering that section of track, which could cause all sorts of problems for say PH001 trying to leave Cairns when PN001 is still five hours south and heading to Cairns. A simple solution would be to renumber the PHs as 101-103 or 021-023, just not 001-003.

Yep, that is what i was expecting the issue was between PH and PN.  

Should I think of the 4 number approach (e.g. 8101) as just a different language to the letter number approach (e.g. PH001).  Or could PH8101 be also mistaken for 8101 in some operating systems?

They are lettered "Pacific National" and not "Pacific National Queensland" like the PN class (although presumably the difference went away with the "One PN" reorganisation.)

And if they are intended for coal traffic, the numbering is not important since they will run on lines with automatic signalling.

I think that it is likely that PN management have considered the numbering, since presumably there are people within PN who understand this. And why would you use your most powerful locomotives on intermodal trains? They haven't used the similarly powerful 88 class on intermodal trains yet, have they?

I'd expect that they'd want to compare the PH with the 88 in heavy haul service to start with...

Peter

In low speed, hill climbing coal service, tractive effort can matter more than horsepower, and while having significantly more horsepower to use once a train is moving, the PHs, with a similar tractive effort to the 83s, will still only be able to start a similar sized train to the 83s. Once moving the train could accelerate and haul it faster...the latter making them theoretically better for intermodal, but also useful for 80km/h coal trains. Purely my own speculation, but the new Mt Isa Glencore container traffic  (probably needing three single loco container sets) PN will start hauling in February could use the PHs, or use 83s freed up by the PHs elsewhere. We're going to find out pretty soon I'd say.

In Queensland a PH8101 could still be mistaken for another 8101, the numbers matter, not the letters...at the time the computer systems were put in place by QR in the 1990s it had no need to consider alternative numbering systems to the one it used.

In Queensland a PH8101 could still be mistaken for another 8101, the numbers matter, not the letters...at the time the computer systems were put in place by QR in the 1990s it had no need to consider alternative numbering systems to the one it used.

How does the system cope with track machines?

Aurizon have pairs of tampers and ballast regulators numbered MMA501 and MMB501, for example...

These are intended to work together and have been purchased in pairs.

Peter

In low speed, hill climbing coal service, tractive effort can matter more than horsepower, and while having significantly more horsepower to use once a train is moving, the PHs, with a similar tractive effort to the 83s, will still only be able to start a similar sized train to the 83s. Once moving the train could accelerate and haul it faster...the latter making them theoretically better for intermodal, but also useful for 80km/h coal trains. Purely my own speculation, but the new Mt Isa Glencore container traffic  (probably needing three single loco container sets) PN will start hauling in February could use the PHs, or use 83s freed up by the PHs elsewhere. We're going to find out pretty soon I'd say.

The 83 (and 4000 and 4100) can haul as much as a 3700 electric.
The diesel is much slower on hills because the available power to climb hills is much less than the electric.

This can be a problem where diesel trains are interspersed with electric trains.

This is more of a problem on the Blackwater system since there are more diesel trains running with electric trains.

My understanding is that both the 88 and PH classes were intended to address this problem by increasing the power of the diesel trains and reducing the speed differential between electric and diesel trains. With higher power, the speed at the top of the grade is higher and the sectional times are reduced.

Intermodal trains don't generally need the higher power since they are pretty fast with a single loco.

Peter

Some interesting things at UGL Broadmeadow this morning. A couple of C44s with light bogies and wide radiators in the shop. I'm not saying they're new, I'm sure someone knows.

Wouldn't be the ex CFCLA CF(?) class being repainted by any chance?

Looks like an Aurizon cow catcher but they don't use light bogies.

Looks like an Aurizon cow catcher but they don't use light bogies.

What do the 6000/6020's have then? As commented above, it could likely be the former CF4401 and CF4409 being repainted for their Ardglen banking duties

I should of said fabricated bogies. I was trying to give the impression it's a 6000 or equivalent model without saying it's any class in particular. The painting standard looks like a new one, not a repaint, but the air conditioner looks a little weathered, so repaint is likely. 2 of the CFs were there a few weeks ago, but went back out into service.
However, just for interest, after the 3 latest 93s were done, I believe there is still one older build C44 still unaccounted for at UGL. Plus, late last year, there was a brand new pair of fabricated bogie frames out the front at UGL, while the 3 new/old 93s were underway. They were devoid of all plumbing and fittings and the axle box guides were nice and new.

I should of said fabricated bogies. I was trying to give the impression it's a 6000 or equivalent model without saying it's any class in particular. The painting standard looks like a new one, not a repaint, but the air conditioner looks a little weathered, so repaint is likely. 2 of the CFs were there a few weeks ago, but went back out into service.
However, just for interest, after the 3 latest 93s were done, I believe there is still one older build C44 still unaccounted for at UGL. Plus, late last year, there was a brand new pair of fabricated bogie frames out the front at UGL, while the 3 new/old 93s were underway. They were devoid of all plumbing and fittings and the axle box guides were nice and new.

Aurizon are repainting 5000 and 6000 classes (if not in an orderly manner) into the current scheme, as well as having the two CFs which would need repainting.

I was under the impression that PN purchased everything they had at Broadmeadow...

I think I have only seen the two old cream locos and one newer grey one sitting around.

Perhaps you saw a PHC some time ago before it was painted?

Peter

I'll go back through my photos when I'm back in town in a couple of days. I believe the 5000s are being done at Cardiff. 5007 was done there, then went out to work, then went to Varley's for attention. I seem to remember there was a Downer vehicle parked next to it there.

Aurizon painted, but not yet decalled 6041 and 6042 at UGL Broadmeadow at the moment. The 3 PHs are all decalled and still waiting outside. CF4404 parked out the front. CF4412 in the shop for a while now. Also, not so new NR26 was moved into one of the paint sheds this morning and had full height scaffolding erected around it.

Aurizon painted, but not yet decalled 6041 and 6042 at UGL Broadmeadow at the moment

I'm not familiar with these two locos, are these an extension of the 6020 class or a new class entirely?

Aurizon painted, but not yet decalled 6041 and 6042 at UGL Broadmeadow at the moment. The 3 PHs are all decalled and still waiting outside. CF4404 parked out the front. CF4412 in the shop for a while now. Also, not so new NR26 was moved into one of the paint sheds this morning and had full height scaffolding erected around it.

Does that mean the three 93 class have been delivered?

I assume 6041 and 6042 are CF4401 and CF4409.

They must be regarded as different enough to not be numbered 6033 and 6034.

The NRs get painted quite separately from their major overhauls.

It would be a shock to everybody if CF 4412 became 6043....

Peter

6040 is a new number range as the 6020s stop at 29. 30s appear to have been skipped, possibly to allow for the ACC group that would have been there if they weren't ACCs. That's just my guessing. However the general consensus is that these 2 are repainted ex CFs. The aircons are weathered, so I'm all for it.

EDIT,  I looked at my photos, and the aircons aren't weathered today like they were a couple of weeks ago.

ACCs are in the 6030s. Derr .

9320 was still there in fresh paint as of this afternoon as well.

Hi all.
6041 and 6042 are sitting at Hexham at the moment. The CF repaints? Excellent effort by UGL , I must say. They've done a million dollar job. Paint is immaculate. Also , the wheels and tms are brand new, even the brake blocks. And every zinc plated bolt, even up inside the undergear is shiny new. Hose clamps and crimp fittings new too. Even the hoses everywhere aren't painted, you can read the part numbers. Not a dent or mark anywhere. All the fuel fittings and gadgets are new. And topped it all off with new builders plates.
6041 is R-0147-02/17-527
6042 is R-0147-02/17-528

5007 is nearby. A downer repaint with none of the above luxuries.

Hi all.
6041 and 6042 are sitting at Hexham at the moment. The CF repaints? Excellent effort by UGL , I must say. They've done a million dollar job. Paint is immaculate. Also , the wheels and tms are brand new, even the brake blocks. And every zinc plated bolt, even up inside the undergear is shiny new. Hose clamps and crimp fittings new too. Even the hoses everywhere aren't painted, you can read the part numbers. Not a dent or mark anywhere. All the fuel fittings and gadgets are new. And topped it all off with new builders plates.
6041 is R-0147-02/17-527
6042 is R-0147-02/17-528

5007 is nearby. A downer repaint with none of the above luxuries.

CF units still in CF colours as of about 10 days ago.

Aren't these the phantom GWUs?

New (ish?) builds whatever they were meant to be originally.