About the newer rolling stock (mbug, oscar and waratah

 
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
I know that the A,M and O sets are running ac motors. What motors do the tangara's use?

If as I have read elsewhere that the Tangara has AC motors and once all the tahs have replaced all the old stock and a vset replacement procurred.

1. would it be possible to convert sydney's network to ac?
2. would the network be cheaper to run on ac?

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  R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper
O set
"jedimasterc"


What is an O set may i ask?
  sydnytrains Chief Commissioner

Location: McDonalds Front counter serving customers
O set
"jedimasterc"


What is an O set may i ask?
"R44"


I think he means OSCAR's.
  R44 Chief Commissioner

Location: Moving paper
O set
"jedimasterc"


What is an O set may i ask?
"R44"


I think he means OSCAR's.
"sydnytrains"


Ah, H Set
  piepants Chief Train Controller

Location: Newcastle
I know that the A,M and O sets are running ac motors. What motors do the tangara's use?

If as I have read elsewhere that the Tangara has AC motors and once all the tahs have replaced all the old stock and a vset replacement procurred.

1. would it be possible to convert sydney's network to ac?
2. would the network be cheaper to run on ac?
"jedimasterc"



Cheaper? Possibly. There's always power losses in the rectification process from AC to DC. It would be an expensive conversion though.

Possible? Yeah, but quite expensive.

The Tangaras are actually DC stock. One set was converted to AC (G7), but this was written off and scrapped as it was involved in the Waterfall disaster. From what I recall, it had quite a few technical issues leading up to the disaster, hence why RailCorp haven't bothered converting any other Tangaras.

It's all a bit of a moot point these days anyway. Modern trains are no longer AC or DC as such. The Waratah for example uses spread spectrum modulation - the Traction Inverter Modules will feed a 3-phase AC waveform to the motors during accelleration and low speed running, and will gradually shift more towards DC as the train reaches cruising speeds (I believe this is the source of the secondary whine you can hear as the train reaches around 50-60km/h).
  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
On a separate note,
How are the set letters decided?
Does M Set= Millennium Set, T Set= Tangara?
Meanwhile...
L, R, S, K, V, H and A do not bear any resemblances to their "conventional" name.

My theory is that the M and T designations were intentional because the trains were specifically made for a purpose to commemorate something (the Millennium and Bicentennial/because of their given name respectively)? Whereas the C= chopper (control)

Did the L, R, S and K trains ever have a conventional name (besides Suburban silver trains)?
  trainman3801 Chief Commissioner

Location: Why do you want to know?!?!?!
V sets were originally designated U sets, however when they were fitted with vaccum retention toilets they were recoded V sets.
  sydnytrains Chief Commissioner

Location: McDonalds Front counter serving customers
From my understanding ...

V = Intercity train with Vacuum Toilets (1977-2011)
C = Chopper Controlled Train

But let's remember, while we're talking about target's, M sets were 4 car Red rattlers consisting of 2 single deck motor cars and 2 double deck trailers, H sets were 4 car single deck sets and T sets were 2 car Double Deck sets (2 car L sets really).
  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
V sets were originally designated U sets, however when they were fitted with vaccum retention toilets they were recoded V sets.
"trainman3801"


lol I had a good chuckle there. Seems random, but logical.

But let's remember, while we're talking about target's, M sets were 4 car Red rattlers consisting of 2 single deck motor cars and 2 double deck trailers, H sets were 4 car single deck sets and T sets were 2 car Double Deck sets (2 car L sets really).
"sydnytrains"


It seems like they are trying to reuse former target plate designations too? Shocked
  UncleMurphy Train Controller

Location: Canley Vale
Quick questions,

The Tangara with the AC motors used for "evaluation purposes" (G7), was it using those motors to do prototype tests for the Milleniums? I've also read that they were supplied by Mitsubishi (the same supplier for the DC motored Tangaras and Oscars). Did G7's motors sounded similar to a Millenium, Oscar or something completely different? Also does anyone have any videos of G7 with AC motors?

Thanks for reading,


Victor
  sydnytrains Chief Commissioner

Location: McDonalds Front counter serving customers
V sets were originally designated U sets, however when they were fitted with vaccum retention toilets they were recoded V sets.
"trainman3801"


lol I had a good chuckle there. Seems random, but logical.

But let's remember, while we're talking about target's, M sets were 4 car Red rattlers consisting of 2 single deck motor cars and 2 double deck trailers, H sets were 4 car single deck sets and T sets were 2 car Double Deck sets (2 car L sets really).
"sydnytrains"


It seems like they are trying to reuse former target plate designations too? Shocked
"boxythingy"


Well, here's a small history of the target plates.

In 1926, the H target was brought out for use of the Single deck sets. I believe the F set target was also in use. The H and F targets were similar.

Following that, the S target plate was brought out for use of the newer production of single deck cars of Comeng in 1955. These cars had fully automatic doors and 120V.

In 1956, new Single Deck Intercity rollingstock was brought out and were targetted "U" Sets. This probably meant "Inter-Urban" sets.

In 1964, following the arrival of 120 new Double Deck trailers, "M" targets were brought out for new 4 car sets; 2 single deck motors and 2 double deck trailers. Following this, trailers T4701-4740 were converted and renumbered T4751-4790.

The first Double Deck set in 1968 carried target "S10".

In 1970, new Intercity cars were brought out and were targetted "U" sets.

In 1977, new Intercity cars were introduced and were fitted with Vacuum retention toilets, which gave them the "V" target. For there Vacuum retention toilets. The V target is use and was used for the next 4 batches of DD Intercity rollingstock.

In 1972, when the first of the Comeng Double Deck Suburban cars were introduced, the S sets were given the "W" set target, so the S target can be used for the new sets. 2 car sets were given the T target, probably for "Two" car sets.

Between 1981-1985, R sets were introduced. These cars were the first "Air-Conditioned Suburban" train introduced in Sydney. The series II cars were anyway. And in 1987, new K sets were introduced as refinements of the previously introduced R sets. The K sets were the fitted with the chopper equipment that was also fitted in the latter V sets and Tangara's.

When the Tangara was introduced in 1988, a whole renovation was made to the Double Deck fleet targets. K sets were given the "C" target for chopper control, R sets were given the "K" target because the "R" target was going to be used for 6 car sets. S sets kept there target and 2 car T sets were given the "L" set target, so the new Tangara's can use the "T" target.

By 1989, some of the H and F sets had been withdrawn and scrapped due to the introduction of new Double Deck trains. The "F" target plate had almost disappeared after the mid 80's. But one set that consists of 3426, 4673, 4527 3218 and sometimes 3653 and 3102 have the "F1" target plate.

The "G" target was new. Also, the first zoo train carried the "H22" target in 1991.

In 1994, following the G set introduction, the Single Deck U sets were withdrawn, ending the "U" target. This target hasn't been used since.

By 2001, almost 10 years since it disappeared, the M target was back and used on the new Millennium Trains. And it's clear that "M" stands for "Millenniums".

And in 2006, the "H" target had re appeared after over 10 years of absence. It was used on the now running OSCAR units. I don't know at this moment what "H" stands for, but it's used.

Hope this helps.  Smile
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.
From my understanding ...

V = Intercity train with Vacuum Toilets (1977-2011)
C = Chopper Controlled Train

But let's remember, while we're talking about target's, M sets were 4 car Red rattlers consisting of 2 single deck motor cars and 2 double deck trailers, H sets were 4 car single deck sets and T sets were 2 car Double Deck sets (2 car L sets really).
"sydnytrains"


I was always under the impression from my father, who travelled by train in Sydney from 1954 to 1957, and subsequently worked for the railways 1958 to 1961, that

M = Mortdale MC

F = Flemington MC

H = Hornsby MC

B = Punchbowl Depot.
  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned

Well, here's a small history of the target plates

....

Hope this helps.  Smile
"sydnytrains"


Wow, so much info. Thanks Very Happy
  sydnytrains Chief Commissioner

Location: McDonalds Front counter serving customers
From my understanding ...

V = Intercity train with Vacuum Toilets (1977-2011)
C = Chopper Controlled Train

But let's remember, while we're talking about target's, M sets were 4 car Red rattlers consisting of 2 single deck motor cars and 2 double deck trailers, H sets were 4 car single deck sets and T sets were 2 car Double Deck sets (2 car L sets really).
"sydnytrains"


I was always under the impression from my father, who travelled by train in Sydney from 1954 to 1957, and subsequently worked for the railways 1958 to 1961, that

M = Mortdale MC

F = Flemington MC

H = Hornsby MC

B = Punchbowl Depot.
"newington"


That could be correct.


Wow, so much info. Thanks Very Happy
"boxythingy"


I'm glad you enjoyed it. It took me half-an-hour to do that. So i'm glad you like it.  SmileVery Happy  8)
  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
From my understanding ...

V = Intercity train with Vacuum Toilets (1977-2011)
C = Chopper Controlled Train

But let's remember, while we're talking about target's, M sets were 4 car Red rattlers consisting of 2 single deck motor cars and 2 double deck trailers, H sets were 4 car single deck sets and T sets were 2 car Double Deck sets (2 car L sets really).
"sydnytrains"


I was always under the impression from my father, who travelled by train in Sydney from 1954 to 1957, and subsequently worked for the railways 1958 to 1961, that

M = Mortdale MC

F = Flemington MC

H = Hornsby MC

B = Punchbowl Depot.
"newington"


So, the historic trains used plates with the initial of where their depot was and these initials stuck since then, even though they have no relation at all? Good theory.Very Happy
  gilberations Assistant Commissioner

Location: Lithgow
why do endevours and hunters not have target plates?
  balikoy Chief Commissioner

That could be correct.


I also think this is correct.

I also seem to recall that W might have been used for something at some stage,  possibly the mixed single-deck double deck trains.
  raymcd Locomotive Driver

Location: Artarmon NSW


It's all a bit of a moot point these days anyway. Modern trains are no longer AC or DC as such. The Waratah for example uses spread spectrum modulation - the Traction Inverter Modules will feed a 3-phase AC waveform to the motors during accelleration and low speed running, and will gradually shift more towards DC as the train reaches cruising speeds (I believe this is the source of the secondary whine you can hear as the train reaches around 50-60km/h).
"piepants"


Spread Spectrum Modulation is a communications technique. Trains use Variable Frequency Drives. The direct current from the overhead is converted to 3-phase AC and applied to 3-phase induction traction motors, the speed of which is proportional to the frequency of the applied voltage. The train speeds up as the control system increases the frequency. This produces the whine of increasing pitch.

By the way, 3-phase AC motors cannot run on DC (I don't know where you got that idea). A big advantage of VF drives is that 3-ph induction motors are much simpler and therefore more reliable than DC motors.

In systems using AC overhead supply (such as Brisbane & Perth) the single phase AC supply is first converted to DC then to 3-ph VF AC
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
O set
"jedimasterc"


What is an O set may i ask?
"R44"


I think he means OSCAR's.
"sydnytrains"


yes sorry i mixing up my trains and trams and oscars and h's.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned

Well, here's a small history of the target plates

....

Hope this helps.  Smile
"sydnytrains"


Wow, so much info. Thanks Very Happy
"boxythingy"


yeah i'm glad I started this post because their is a lot of info coming out and no arguing about this and that.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
What is the theoretical fastest speed the current DD trains could reach? not the limited speed of 130 or so.

If 3000v DC was used would the top speed increase?

Would a single deck electric run at a faster speed?

Is their a HST or VHST that uses DC?
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
why do endevours and hunters not have target plates?
"gilberations"


Because they are not interchangeable sets.
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.
why do endevours and hunters not have target plates?
"gilberations"


Because they are not interchangeable sets.
"Raichase"


I'm fairly certain they were trialled at one stage, can't find the photos at the moment.

EDIT: On second thoughts, no, the "E" target plates i think were used for the 620/720 sets. sorry for the confusion.
  HMC1989 Chief Commissioner

Location: Behind a desk.
Hunters do have targets. They are tucked away in the store at BMD.
  sydnytrains Chief Commissioner

Location: McDonalds Front counter serving customers
Diesel units do not have target plates or a particular operational sector, but can in practice be considered to operate on a unique sector as they service the non-electrified portions of the system.
"wikipedia"

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